---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/17/04: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: vi kapler hinges (John Dilatush) 2. 08:18 AM - Cutting plywood (dpaul) 3. 08:36 AM - model a engine (Richard Navratil) 4. 08:51 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (walt evans) 5. 08:52 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (Isablcorky@aol.com) 6. 08:56 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (hjarrett) 8. 09:31 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (Rcaprd@aol.com) 9. 09:48 AM - Re: vi kapler hinges (Kip and Beth Gardner) 10. 10:41 AM - Re: Engine mount and tailfeathers (Rcaprd@aol.com) 11. 10:53 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (The Hallsten's) 12. 12:20 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (dpaul) 13. 12:56 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (walt evans) 14. 03:09 PM - Re: Updated 'Infomation List' (Waytogopiet@aol.com) 15. 05:39 PM - Re: Landing Gear Location (hjarrett) 16. 05:57 PM - Re: Piet information list (hjarrett) 17. 07:30 PM - Wood landing gear question (Ted Brousseau) 18. 09:22 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (Clif Dawson) 19. 09:44 PM - Re: Wood landing gear question (Clif Dawson) 20. 09:51 PM - Re: Wood landing gear question (Richard Navratil) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:46 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges ----- Original Message ----- From: Brants To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges Tom, I haven't talked to him for a couple of years, but try: Vi Kapler 1033 Forest Hills Drive S.W. Rochester, MN 55902 507) 288-3322 Hope this helps, let me know the results. John Anyone have a photo or some info on Vi Kaplers hinges? Is he selling / making them? How can I reach him? I'm working on the tail section over the winter and I'll soon be ready for some hinges to put it all together. Tom Brant Brooklyn Park, MN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:19 AM PST US From: "dpaul" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? Even with new plywood cutting blades I tend to leave a rough edge. I'm ready to make a cut in the rear seat back so it can be hinged for inspection access. I would hate to leave a rough or "over sanded" appearance in a nice looking piece of plywood. Dave in Missouri ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:08 AM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: model a engine I just got the new issue of the BPA newsletter. There is a Classified ad for a model A engine with fresh overhaul and conversion including prop hub. It is listed for $950/offer. Sounds like a deal. Contact Karl 765-532-4864 or 815-459-7902 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:27 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Dave, I did all my wood cutting with a 10" Delta bandsaw. Always a smooth beautiful cut. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: dpaul To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? Even with new plywood cutting blades I tend to leave a rough edge. I'm ready to make a cut in the rear seat back so it can be hinged for inspection access. I would hate to leave a rough or "over sanded" appearance in a nice looking piece of plywood. Dave in Missouri ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:49 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Try a fine toothed bandsaw ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:14 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Score the top and layer with a knife blade along your cut line if it splinters out it will only go to the scored line. Terry Bowden ph (254) 715-4773 fax (254) 853-3805 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:25 AM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood If you are in a place in the work where you absolutely, positively have got to have a perfect cut, just lay a scrap piece of wood over and under the piece you want the smooth cut on. Clamp them together and cut through all three at once. The splits and tears will be in the outer pieces and the center one will be perfect. This works really well when doing things like cutting holes for instruments. You can use almost anything for the outer pieces, like press board, cheap ply or even tempered masonite. Just make sure the three are clamped together so the outer pieces take the damage. Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: dpaul To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? Even with new plywood cutting blades I tend to leave a rough edge. I'm ready to make a cut in the rear seat back so it can be hinged for inspection access. I would hate to leave a rough or "over sanded" appearance in a nice looking piece of plywood. Dave in Missouri ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:54 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 1/17/04 10:18:57 AM Central Standard Time, dpaul@fidnet.com writes: << Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? >> I've used masking tape on the top of the plywood, if you're using a circular saw, or on the bottom if you're using a table saw. Then put your line on the masking tape, or use one edge of the masking tape for your line, and cut as you normally would. You can streach the tape between your marks, and it makes a good straight line, eliminating the step of laying a straight edge on, and marking it with a pencil. The tape keeps the saw teeth from pulling the splinters up. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:36 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges At 1:02 AM -0600 1/17/04, Brants wrote: >Anyone have a photo or some info on Vi Kaplers hinges? Is he >selling / making them? How can I reach him? I'm working on the >tail section over the winter and I'll soon be ready for some hinges >to put it all together. > > >Tom Brant >Brooklyn Park, MN > > >------ USFamily.Net - Unlimited >Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ Tom, Vi was at Brodhead & I think he told me that he's still making hinges & prop hubs. I got a set when I bought my project. They are nice. Not doing much on the Piet right now, I'm busy restoring a 50+ year-old sled for my daughter. Kip Gardner - cold & snowy here too, down to 0 last night -- North Canton, OH ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:29 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine mount and tailfeathers --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 1/14/04 9:13:12 PM Central Standard Time, Andimaxd@aol.com writes: << My project is coming right along. The engine mount is welded straight, in other words no one inch down and no half to one inch right or left. We are using a cont. 75 HP. Should I mount the vertical tail fin an inch or so over to one side or is it worth messing with?>> Max, The Continental Engine Mount, drawn by A. C. Hanfet, dated 3/15/67, shows a difference of 9/16" in the top and bottom lengths of the mount. I maintained this difference in my engine mount, but made it 8" longer with heavier wall tubing. It doesn't show any right thrust, but I built 1/16" right thrust into the mount. The Model A engine mount shows a 1" downthrust along the horizontal line. Downthrust helps reduce the 'Pendulum Effect' of a high wing, that the various power settings have. Add power, the nose pitches up, reduce power, the nose lowers, however, even with downthrust built into the engine mount. Also do I need to have more incidence in the left wing to compensate for torque and P factor? >> Do Not rig the wing to compensate for torque or P factor. Different incidence in the wing will cause one wing to stall before the other. Rig the wing with the same amount of incidence all the way across, or maybe a tiny bit of washout at the tips. The plans show rigging the vertical fin straight, but that is with a Model A engine. Offset fins seem to be used with engines of higher power. Mine is set straight, with no rudder trim tab, and I use just a tiny bit of right rudder during high power settings...almost not even noticible by my feet. You could rig the leading edge of the vertical fin maybe 1/16" to the Left of Butt Line Zero (BL0) to compensate for engine torque. Corvair engines would be offset to the Right side, since they turn in the opposite direction. P factor is only evident when flying at a high angle of attack, with a high power setting. I would suggest you use large 'fender washers' under the engine mount to put some downthrust, and right thrust. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:29 AM PST US From: "The Hallsten's" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Dave, Run a piece of masking tape along the cut line, where the teeth of the blade will leave the wood. If you cut on a tablesaw it would be the bottom of the wood. The tape keeps the edge from splintering. Kent ----- Original Message ----- From: dpaul To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:33 PM PST US From: "dpaul" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood -----Original Message----- To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Saturday, January 17, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Thanks for the suggestions. Your ideas should make for cleaner looking holes in the instrument panel also. Dave Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:36 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Dave, Use a fly cutter for the panel holes, does a beautiful job. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: dpaul To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood -----Original Message----- To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Saturday, January 17, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Thanks for the suggestions. Your ideas should make for cleaner looking holes in the instrument panel also. Dave Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:56 PM PST US From: Waytogopiet@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Updated 'Infomation List' In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:37:44 PM Central Standard Time, Rcaprd@aol.com writes: and they can copy / paste to a return e-mail, fill in all the blanks as much as they can, and send it to me, or to the list Chuck, Great Job! I'm not much on the cut and paste thing. If you would you post your mailing address I could then mail you the filled out form on NX920Y rather than clutter up the list. Thanx, Don Hicks ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:57 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location With the plane in a level attitude the angle we are talking about is between a vertical through the CG and the tire contact point and the CG. You can find the actual CG location by doing a "weigh" with the tail down and find the CG spot on the ground. A line on the fuselage side (vertical) will become a sloped line when you bring the tail up to level. Do the weigh again and make a new vertical line. The crossing point of the lines is the actual CG. Pull another line from that CG location (with the tail still up) to the contact point of the tires. The angle between the vertical line and the line to the tire contact point is the angle we are talking about. The angle isn't going to be very big between the tail down and up CG locations so measure carefully (a 90=BA angle would be most accurate). A REALLY accurate way to locate the vertical location would be to just hang the plane up by the prop and drop a plumb line down beside it but that seems to cause a lot of fluid leaks. ;-) Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Sloan To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location Mike, I am having a lot of confusion trying to understand this angle thing. 12-14 degrees measured from where to where? I know how to find the C.G. horzontally but this vertical C.G. point is new to me. Can you clarify this point? Alex Sloan alexms1@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Conkling To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location My old copy (1965) of "Practical Lightplane Design & Construction" by Bill Fike listed the average landing angle as being 12 to 14 degrees -- with the fuselage level, the wheel axle was in-line with the leading edge of the wing (16 degrees down & forward of the CG point) -- for a "cub" like airplane with brakes. Mike C. Pretty Prairie, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location To clarify John's post below, the 16.5 degree angle is with the tail up and the ship level fore and aft using the top longerons at the cockpit for leveling. chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dilatush To: Pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Location ----- Original Message ----- From: At7000ft@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list Pieters, The proper location of the landing gear ground contact point is determined by the CG of the plane. The CG of the entire plane is a combination of the horizontal and vertical centers of gravity. From this point a line may be drawn to the ground contact point of the landing gear. The angle of this line is usually 16.5 degrees forward from the vertical if the plane is equiped with brakes, somewhat less if the plane has no brakes. It might be neccessary to increase this angle if the thrust line is high, so as to prevent nose over during run up and rough field operation. However, the heavier the tail load is, the more of a tendency for ground looping upon landing. On "Mountain Piet" this angle is about 12 degrees and this seems to work out OK, both for rough fields and no ground looping tendencies. The brakes won't hold the plane during run up, so this is not an issue. My tailwheel weight when the plane is leveled up is only about 9 lbs. I had attached the spreadsheet used for my plane, however it was too large for Matronics to accept, so it was bounced. If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to try and send it directly to you. Hope all this helps. John Dilatush NX114D Salida, CO ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:29 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list You need to calculate the thrust and know the moment arm of the prop which gives you the thrust component of the nose over moment, the brake force (based on speed of the aircraft to calculate the weight on the wheels and the local friction coefficient) and the vertical CG location, which gives you the nose over moment from the wheel brakes, the deceleration of the aircraft times the height of the CG for the inertia contribution to the nose over moment, and the distance behind the tire contact point of the CG (which changes as the attitude of the plane changes, that also changes the lift, changing the weight on the wheels that changes everything else). Then you do the calculation solving for all the moments at say every 2 MPH increment to determine the critical speed, angles and brake force. You also have to factor in the down load available from the tail and its arm solving for the point where the elevator looses effectiveness. The one factor that is hard to calculate is how hard your "pucker" is trying to suck your rear to the pavement and the moment arm from the wheel contact point to the seat as the nose starts to go over. Three things are derived from the whole mess. 1) That's why the engineer gets paid as much as he does 2) Now you know why the tricycle gear is so popular with manufacturers 3) That's why we use a "Rule of Thumb" for the angle If you REALLY want to know the answer to the above I have done it before but it takes some time and can get expensive. It IS very informative and, by the way, I wrote the above as I sat in front of the computer so some factors are probably missing. I would normally do it on paper to make sure I didn't miss anything and them spread sheet it for each condition. Anybody want to help finance the paint job on my Taylorcraft? ;-) Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: At7000ft@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet information list Hank - given this data how do you calibrate how hard you can press on the brakes at a given speed to avoid grazing? Rick H. OK, I'm going to stick my nose in once more. To be useful you need to know where the contact point of the tire is in relation to the CG in a level attitude. Sorry guys but all the other measurements don't help much from a nose over point of view. The other thing that is needed is the height from the ground to the CG. With those measurements you can calculate the nose over moment and with the tail force and arm you can calculate exactly how much brake you can use verses the airspeed. That is what tells you if you are going to have a "grazer" or a tail dragger. Hank J ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:32 PM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear question Hi, Does the bottom ash block on each landing gear get glued to the legs or is it just held in place only with the metal fittings? Thanks, Ted ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:09 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Cabinet makers trick-use a knife instead of a pencil. There are knives made especialy for this. They're called "marking knives". Available from all the woodworking catalogue outlets like Lee Valley Tools http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID&ccurrency1&page32502&category1,42936,42949 Garret Wade and others also. A good blade is the 45=B0 one from exacto. Cutting the top layer of fibres limits tearout to that line. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: dpaul To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Listers, Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to cut plywood without pulling up the top layer of ply? Even with new plywood cutting blades I tend to leave a rough edge. I'm ready to make a cut in the rear seat back so it can be hinged for inspection access. I would hate to leave a rough or "over sanded" appearance in a nice looking piece of plywood. Dave in Missouri ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:09 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear question <013001c3da49$5eaa6940$0101a8c0@domain> <002801c3db0c$21e126c0$57c5fea9@mke> <005e01c3dbbe$1a2f9120$d401a8c0@Alex> <044301c3dd64$6004c7e0$ceddf6ce@hjarrett> <002b01c3dd73$64fbb1a0$1e3b4e0c@cacjis20.jud20.flcourts.org> From a strength point of view, it won't help any as you are trying to glue end grain in the legs. End grain won't hold. I would varnish the block and legs before putting it all together for moisture protection though. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Brousseau To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 7:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear question Hi, Does the bottom ash block on each landing gear get glued to the legs or is it just held in place only with the metal fittings? Thanks, Ted ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:49 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear question Hi Ted I glued and screwed mine together before the metal fittings. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Brousseau To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wood landing gear question Hi, Does the bottom ash block on each landing gear get glued to the legs or is it just held in place only with the metal fittings? Thanks, Ted