---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/19/04: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:45 AM - Spruce for ribs on eBay (Jim Markle) 2. 09:11 AM - Re: Spruce for ribs on eBay (Kip and Beth Gardner) 3. 09:26 AM - Re: Spruce for ribs on eBay (Jim Markle) 4. 09:26 AM - Re: Spruce for ribs on eBay (Jim Markle) 5. 10:14 AM - Fw: landings (Graham Hansen) 6. 10:43 AM - Re: vi kapler hinges (Gnwac@cs.com) 7. 10:59 AM - Re: Cutting plywood (Gnwac@cs.com) 8. 12:43 PM - Here's a Fly Cutter...... Cutting plywood (Jim Markle) 9. 12:49 PM - Re: vi kapler hinges (Rick Holland) 10. 01:02 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (walt evans) 11. 04:29 PM - Re: vi kapler hinges (Richard Schreiber) 12. 07:17 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Alex Sloan) 13. 07:39 PM - Re: PhD dissertation on axle placement among the different fu... (Gnwac@cs.com) 14. 09:31 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Christian Bobka) 15. 09:43 PM - Re: vi kapler hinges (Gnwac@cs.com) 16. 09:47 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Mike) 17. 09:50 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Gnwac@cs.com) 18. 09:52 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Mike) 19. 10:07 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (Clif Dawson) 20. 10:25 PM - Re: horizontal stab dimensions (Christian Bobka) 21. 10:30 PM - Re: Cutting plywood (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:54 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce for ribs on eBay Need spruce for ribs? Here's some located in Cincinnati, possibly a great start for someone doing ribs: I copied this from the ad: "Here are the deatils... a.. Each strip is 1/2" wide X 1/4" thick X 6' long b.. Approx 30 to 40 pieces ( I did not count them) c.. Was intended for the wing ribs of a Pietenpol Aircamper. d.. Has been stored in a dry location, but cannot guarantee the wood's condition. Buy at your own risk. e.. Still in original wood shipping crate." I don't know the person (and have NO association with him) but it looks like a treasure to me.... It's auction number: 2455258271 Jim in Plano ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:12 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce for ribs on eBay At 8:45 AM -0600 1/19/04, Jim Markle wrote: >Need spruce for ribs? > >Here's some located in Cincinnati, possibly a great start for >someone doing ribs: > >I copied this from the ad: > >"Here are the deatils... > >Each strip is 1/2" wide X 1/4" thick X 6' long >Approx 30 to 40 pieces ( I did not count them) >Was intended for the wing ribs of a Pietenpol Aircamper. >Has been stored in a dry location, but cannot guarantee the wood's >condition. Buy at your own risk. >Still in original wood shipping crate." > >I don't know the person (and have NO association with him) but it >looks like a treasure to me.... > >It's auction number: 2455258271 > >Jim in Plano Jim, Was there an identifying name with this ad (a real person's name, not a screen name)? This sounds a lot llike the guy I bought my project from, Bob LeTart. I got of a set of ribs with it, but half of them had been built by someone other than him, which means he could have wood to make a 3rd half-set left over (if that makes sense). If so, then I'd say this is probably a safe deal. Regards, Kip Gardner (still snowing & cold in OH, almost done restoring the 50+-year-old sled for my daughter) -- North Canton, OH ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:33 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce for ribs on eBay DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:33 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce for ribs on eBay DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:33 AM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: landings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" [This message didn't go through for some reason, so I am re-sending it again as a forwarded message.] ----- Original Message ----- From: Graham Hansen Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: landings > REF. Ted Brousseau's post on January 15, 2004 > > Ted, > > Your excellent dissertation on Pietenpol 3-point landing technique is > consistent with my own experience flying my Pietenpol Air Camper > and three other Piets. In total, I have about 760 hours and literally > thousands of landings with Pietenpols, but this is spread over many > years and I need to get out and get some practice once the weather > warms up. > > I agree completely with your observation that 1.3 x stalling speed = 55 > mph is too slow for a power-off approach speed; after round-out there > is virtually no "float" and no opportunity make any corrections because > the speed dissipates so rapidly. One's judgment needs to be absolutely > accurate in order to make a good landing and a heavy landing is a very > real possibility. > > If a power-off approach and landing is made, your suggested approach > speed of 65 mph will work fine with my Pietenpol, although I like to ap- > proach at 70 if it is gusty or if I have a load. We are at 2500' asl and, > on a hot summer day, one needs to be careful---especially when loaded > to, or near, gross weight. Under these conditions I will generally use a > "touch" of power to flatten the approach angle and carry it through the > flare. I feel that extra airspeed is "money in the bank" when flying a drag- > gy airplane, and getting rid of any excess speed never seems to be a > problem.with the Pietenpols and biplanes I have flown. > > A power-off approach in a Pietenpol is steep compared to other light- > planes of similar power (Taylorcraft, Luscombe, etc.). My Sperry Mes- > senger Biplane reproduction has a steeper approach angle, but my Piper > PA17 Vagabond, with the same wingspan as my Pietenpol, doesn't ap- > proach so steeply. As you aptly put it, one does indeed take "aim" at > the ground with a Pietenpol (or a biplane), and generally you will touch > down very close to the aiming point. > > Wheel landings, with the Piets I have flown, are much easier to accom- > plish than 3-pointers. Perhaps this is due to the main wheels not being > located too far forward. With all four Pietenpols it was easy to taxi all > over the place with the tail up by using just enough power. On the land- > ing approach my Pietenpol is fairly nose-heavy with reduced power, or > power-off, and this reduces, or eliminates, the need to "pin it on" with > forward stick once the mainwheels touch. One simply releases back > pressure on the stick upon contact. For me, with my aging reflexes, > this is good! > > In my humble opinion, if one can fly a J-3 Cub well from the rear seat, > he/she would do fine with a Pietenpol, provided they are made aware > of the dragginess of the latter. The Pietenpol is not a difficult airplane > to > fly, but it demands proper technique to make consistently good landings > (particularly 3-pointers). > > Happy landings, > > Graham Hansen > (Pietenpol CF-AUN in somewhat chilly Alberta, Canada) > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:26 AM PST US From: Gnwac@cs.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges Yes he is still selling them. They look great but do require some filing. His phone is 507-288-3322. Good luck, Greg Menoche Delaware ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:51 AM PST US From: Gnwac@cs.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood What is a FLY CUTTER? Greg Delaware ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:38 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Here's a Fly Cutter...... Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:36 PM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges Netscape/7.1 (ax) These are the cast aluminum elevator and rudder hinges correct? Rick H Gnwac@cs.com wrote: > Yes he is still selling them. They look great but do require some > filing. His phone is 507-288-3322. > Good luck, > Greg Menoche > Delaware ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:04 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Here is one pic I found on the net. It's adjustable for hole size. The BIG trick for a good hole is to cut about half way thru on one side and turn wood over to finish. This way no raggid edges walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gnwac@cs.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood What is a FLY CUTTER? Greg Delaware ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:10 PM PST US From: Richard Schreiber Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges Tom, Vi Kapler is still selling the hinges. I bought a set from him at Brodhead this past summer Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN Brants wrote: > Anyone have a photo or some info on Vi Kaplers hinges? Is he selling > / making them? How can I reach him? I'm working on the tail section > over the winter and I'll soon be ready for some hinges to put it all > together. > > > > Tom Brant > Brooklyn Park, MN > > ------ USFamily.Net - Unlimited > Internet - From $8.99/mo! ------ > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:09 PM PST US From: "Alex Sloan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Chris, I am building the long fuselage and would appreciate the information you worked up on larger stabs. Thanks Alex Sloan alexms@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Brants To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Chris, I am the one that asked the original question.... You're correct in saying that the drawings stand alone, however if I'd been smart I could have figured on making a larger stabilizer... According to your comments (if I interpreted correctly) the 172 3/8" fuse (this is what I have) requires a larger stabilizer (and elevator??)... My previous post asks this question - can I use the 18" stab (and elevator) now that they're built, or do I need to modify or rebuild? I would be interested in getting a copy of your article on this. Thanks, Tom Brant Brooklyn Park, MN ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Walt, You are concerned with a concept called tail volume. Tail volume is the square inch area of the horizontal surface (elevator and satbilizer together) times the distance in inches from the center of pressure of the horizontal stabilizer to the Center of Gravity, this being the point of rotation about which the aircraft moves based on input of the controls. As there are three wood fuselages that I know of, namely the version in the F&G manual and on the Hoopman drawings at 161 inches, the 1933 "Improved Aircamper" at 163 inches, and the fuselage designed for the Corvair at 172.375 inches, I am not sure which one you mean. I always called the Corvair fuselage the Pavliga long fuselage because, well, it is the longest and it is the fuselage used on Sky Gypsy. Anyway, if you take the square inch area of each horizontal design times the distance in inches from the loaded CG to the 33% chord point on each stabilizer design, you will come up with the tail volume...volume because the units will now be cubic inches. The hardest thing will be to figure out your loaded CG. If you make the distance between the CG to the CP of the stabilizer longer, you can get by with a smaller stabilizer area. Shorten up the CG to CP distance and you need to increase the tail area. My analysis of the different fuselages leads me to believe that using the 172.375 fuselage moves the seats back faster than the tail gets longer so it actually puts the CG further aft than on the shorter fuselages. This means that the CG to Cp of the stabilizer is actually a shorter distance so a bigger area stabilizer is needed. Unfortunately, the 172.375" fuselage drawing is a stand alone. No landing gear was ever published for it and neither is there a obviously a stabilizer. I wrote an article on gear placement on the 172.375 inch fuselage that was to be published in the Grant MacLaren published BPA NL but it never made it because the very issue it was to be published in was never published as he quit the post. I will dig it out. Only a hard copy exists, and even it is one of the drafts, so I will have to scan it to OCR software and see if I can post it. I hope this helps. I wish people said what inch fuselage they have when they talk of stuff like this as it really matters (or maybe it doesn't since they all seem to meet each aviator's expectations) Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions I didn't know they were different. I built the long fuse and the tail was from the original prints, so I guess I got the wrong one. but flies great. What two prints show different tails??? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Brants To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions I built the long fuselage and then (idiodically) built the horiz. stab for the short fuse (18" wide instead of 19 3/8") - didn't realize until today when I tried fitting it up. Question: can I glue a wider leading edge to the horizontal stab to make up the difference? Obviously this would add a bit of weight to the tail section.. Or could I just fill in behind the turtle deck to take up the space? Difference is about 1 3/8". Is the 1 3/8" width going to be missed if I leave it out? Does this cause a problem getting away from the 'airfoil shape'? Another related question: does the horiz. stab get bolted through the longerons? Any help on this would be appreciated. Tom Brant Brooklyn Park, MN ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:05 PM PST US From: Gnwac@cs.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD dissertation on axle placement among the different fu... Chris, Thanks for a GREAT article ref. the 172 inch fuse builders out here. Your research and experience helps for those of us, me, who are just getting started and learning as we go. Greg Menoche Delaware ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:09 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Tom, As I see it, there are two stabs. One is rectangular in shape, as in the 1932 F and G Manual, and the other sweeps about 80 degrees at the tips, as in the 1933 Improved Aircamper. Otherwise, they all have 18" chord. Anybody else in on this? Mike C.? chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: Brants To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Chris, I am the one that asked the original question.... You're correct in saying that the drawings stand alone, however if I'd been smart I could have figured on making a larger stabilizer... According to your comments (if I interpreted correctly) the 172 3/8" fuse (this is what I have) requires a larger stabilizer (and elevator??)... My previous post asks this question - can I use the 18" stab (and elevator) now that they're built, or do I need to modify or rebuild? I would be interested in getting a copy of your article on this. Thanks, Tom Brant Brooklyn Park, MN ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Walt, You are concerned with a concept called tail volume. Tail volume is the square inch area of the horizontal surface (elevator and satbilizer together) times the distance in inches from the center of pressure of the horizontal stabilizer to the Center of Gravity, this being the point of rotation about which the aircraft moves based on input of the controls. As there are three wood fuselages that I know of, namely the version in the F&G manual and on the Hoopman drawings at 161 inches, the 1933 "Improved Aircamper" at 163 inches, and the fuselage designed for the Corvair at 172.375 inches, I am not sure which one you mean. I always called the Corvair fuselage the Pavliga long fuselage because, well, it is the longest and it is the fuselage used on Sky Gypsy. Anyway, if you take the square inch area of each horizontal design times the distance in inches from the loaded CG to the 33% chord point on each stabilizer design, you will come up with the tail volume...volume because the units will now be cubic inches. The hardest thing will be to figure out your loaded CG. If you make the distance between the CG to the CP of the stabilizer longer, you can get by with a smaller stabilizer area. Shorten up the CG to CP distance and you need to increase the tail area. My analysis of the different fuselages leads me to believe that using the 172.375 fuselage moves the seats back faster than the tail gets longer so it actually puts the CG further aft than on the shorter fuselages. This means that the CG to Cp of the stabilizer is actually a shorter distance so a bigger area stabilizer is needed. Unfortunately, the 172.375" fuselage drawing is a stand alone. No landing gear was ever published for it and neither is there a obviously a stabilizer. I wrote an article on gear placement on the 172.375 inch fuselage that was to be published in the Grant MacLaren published BPA NL but it never made it because the very issue it was to be published in was never published as he quit the post. I will dig it out. Only a hard copy exists, and even it is one of the drafts, so I will have to scan it to OCR software and see if I can post it. I hope this helps. I wish people said what inch fuselage they have when they talk of stuff like this as it really matters (or maybe it doesn't since they all seem to meet each aviator's expectations) Chris Bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions I didn't know they were different. I built the long fuse and the tail was from the original prints, so I guess I got the wrong one. but flies great. What two prints show different tails??? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Brants To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions I built the long fuselage and then (idiodically) built the horiz. stab for the short fuse (18" wide instead of 19 3/8") - didn't realize until today when I tried fitting it up. Question: can I glue a wider leading edge to the horizontal stab to make up the difference? Obviously this would add a bit of weight to the tail section.. Or could I just fill in behind the turtle deck to take up the space? Difference is about 1 3/8". Is the 1 3/8" width going to be missed if I leave it out? Does this cause a problem getting away from the 'airfoil shape'? Another related question: does the horiz. stab get bolted through the longerons? Any help on this would be appreciated. Tom Brant Brooklyn Park, MN ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:57 PM PST US From: Gnwac@cs.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: vi kapler hinges Yes Rick, They are cast aluminum. He sells a set of 9 and include the pin to mate the two halves. They are about $40. Greg Menoche Delaware ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:21 PM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike I'm having some difficulty seeing why a longer fuselage would require a larger horizontal stabilizer. The longer fuselage puts the stab farther away from the CG, giving it more authority over the airplane's attitude. In Chris Bobka's terms, the longer arm increases tail volume without needing to increase the stab area. I have a long fuselage and the stab and elevators are built to original plans (signed by Orrin Hoopman). Mike Hardaway Fresh out of Corvair College and looking for a core. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:10 PM PST US From: Gnwac@cs.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions Chris, Please post or send to me too. Have yet to build the tail, but better to research now than later. Greg Menoche Delaware Gnwac@cs.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:18 PM PST US From: Mike Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike I guess I should have included in my prior post that my long fuselage has 125-1/8 inches between the aft wing attach point and the tail post. The short fuselage has 117-3/4 inches for the same dimension. That indicates to me that, even if the wing is moved aft a little to accommodate a rearward CG shift, the CG is still farther from the tail post in a long fuselage than in a standard length fuse. This is what tells me you don't need to build a larger stabilizer with a long fuselage. Mike Hardaway Still looking. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:07 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Don't use this thing in a hand drill. It is very much out of balance with one cutter way off center, and be very careful of it in a drill press. It has a lot of torque so take it easy. There is one I've seen with a counter weight on the opposite side but most don't. It does work quite well in a drill press following Walt's rules. If you want to cut thick material drill the center hole first and it will go easier. There is another fly cutter. It's a very small knife. Buzzzz. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Here is one pic I found on the net. It's adjustable for hole size. The BIG trick for a good hole is to cut about half way thru on one side and turn wood over to finish. This way no raggid edges walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gnwac@cs.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood What is a FLY CUTTER? Greg Delaware ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:03 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Mike, As I posted earlier, with the seats moved way aft in the 170+" fuselage, the CG is moving aft faster than the arm is getting longer if the arm gets longer at all, when compared to the shorter fuselages. I would like to see some numbers from flying ships, with the CG locations given relative to a COMMON point. The wing LE does not cut it as you move the wing around and that makes the numbers incomparable from ship to ship. One needs to use a fixed location on the fuselage not likely to be tampered with by the builder as is the firewall. I truly believe that the 170+" long fuselage has a tendency to get tail heavy much more easily than the shorter fuselages. I believe that the CG to 'Cp of the stab' distance is shortest with the 170+" fuselage, despite how it might look. This would mean the 170+" fuselage would have the smallest tail volume of all the fuselage variants. To compensate, maybe the tail does need to be made bigger, as Tom Brants suggests. Anyone out there with good weight and balance data to share, with it converted to use, say, the forward cabane strut to upper longeron fitting bolt on the longeron as the datum? Need it for both the shorter and longer fuselages. Anyone measure the stabilizer chord on "The Last Original"? Merely my opinion and waiting for facts to roll in. Believe me, I am a build it stock kind of guy but when you are dealing with the long fuselage, there is not much else given than a fuselage drawing. We are on our own for the rest. chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: horizontal stab dimensions > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike > > I guess I should have included in my prior post that my long fuselage > has 125-1/8 inches between the aft wing attach point and the tail post. > The short fuselage has 117-3/4 inches for the same dimension. That > indicates to me that, even if the wing is moved aft a little to > accommodate a rearward CG shift, the CG is still farther from the tail > post in a long fuselage than in a standard length fuse. This is what > tells me you don't need to build a larger stabilizer with a long > fuselage. > > Mike Hardaway > Still looking. > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:26 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Two rules of fly cutting. Never use it in anything BUT a drill press. Never hold the item being flycut in your hand. It MUST be clamped to the drill press table and you have one hand on the downfeed and the other poised over the off switch. That way you never have to look away from the work until after the drill press is shut off. Chris Bobka who drove his USMC aviator buddy to the hospital for 30+ stiches in his palm after he violated rule 2. chris bobka ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 12:02 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Don't use this thing in a hand drill. It is very much out of balance with one cutter way off center, and be very careful of it in a drill press. It has a lot of torque so take it easy. There is one I've seen with a counter weight on the opposite side but most don't. It does work quite well in a drill press following Walt's rules. If you want to cut thick material drill the center hole first and it will go easier. There is another fly cutter. It's a very small knife. Buzzzz. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood Here is one pic I found on the net. It's adjustable for hole size. The BIG trick for a good hole is to cut about half way thru on one side and turn wood over to finish. This way no raggid edges walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Gnwac@cs.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cutting plywood What is a FLY CUTTER? Greg Delaware