Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:16 AM - Re: blood, sweat & tears (John Ford)
2. 05:20 AM - Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In (rhartwig11@juno.com)
3. 06:16 AM - Question of the week???????????? (Isablcorky@aol.com)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: Question of the week???????????? (Gadd, Skip)
5. 08:00 AM - w/b (Richard Navratil)
6. 08:11 AM - Re: blood, sweat (Hodgson, Mark O)
7. 08:22 AM - Re: w/b (DJ Vegh)
8. 10:01 AM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Gadd, Skip)
9. 01:34 PM - Re: w/b (Richard Navratil)
10. 02:11 PM - Re: w/b (DJ Vegh)
11. 04:52 PM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Shawn Wolk)
12. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Cy Galley)
13. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (DJ Vegh)
14. 07:05 PM - Re: blood, sweat & tears (Clif Dawson)
15. 07:09 PM - Re: blood, sweat (Clif Dawson)
16. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Clif Dawson)
17. 07:25 PM - HIPEC (Richard Navratil)
18. 07:31 PM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Rcaprd@aol.com)
19. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (KRSBtv@aol.com)
20. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (TomTravis@aol.com)
21. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Jack Phillips)
22. 08:41 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . Rib Lacing (Bert Conoly)
23. 09:31 PM - Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: blood, sweat & tears |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>>> ever notice the "Ohnosecond"? That's that split-second when you say
to
yourself, "Oh, no..." and then whatever it is that you were thinking
"oh no"
about actually happens.<<<
I think it's the same thing sort of thing as staring into the eyes of
the proverbial snake. I used to fixate on not putting my hand in the
hush-puppy deep fryer when I worked at Red Lobster in high school, and
had to very consciously not do it. The thing terrified me. I've been
building a house for 3 years (working in the evenings and weekends) and
every time I use a power tool I very deliberately establish that I'm not
going to nail myself to the house, cut off something useful or do
anything which might increase the kids' vocabularies. After all that,
I've still managed to drive a hole clear through my left thumb. I'm a
musician in addition to my day job as a computer tech, and awefully
paranoid about not having my fingers around to type and play bass.
Anybody know where a guy can get one of those armored gloves coroners
use when doing autopsies? ;-)
John Ford
john@indstate.edu
812-237-8542
>>> MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com Sunday, February 08, 2004 10:41:10 PM >>>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike Whaley"
<MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com>
do not archive
Message 2
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Subject: | Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com
I was at the Brodhead Chapter 431 banquet on Saturday night. Plans are
being made for the 2004 Pietenpol Fly-In. I would be willing to make
arrangements for a block of rooms at a Madison hotel for those of you who
are flying in to Madison or driving. I would try to get a hotel on the
South edge of Madison to shorten the daily trip to Brodhead. The daily
drive would be 35 to 40 minutes of driving through Wisconsin farmland.
If you are interested, please e-mail me directly at rhartwig11@juno.com
if you are interested. Having everyone at one hotel would facilitate car
pooling.
We could have a discussion on the list of things we would like to see at
this fly-in, the 75th anniversary of the Pietenpol Air Camper. I will
pass along your ideas to our chapter members.
Dick Hartwig
Message 3
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Subject: | Question of the week???????????? |
Pieters,
Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport pilot
bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for awhile. Is
it still breathing?
Corky still waiting in La
Message 4
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Subject: | Question of the week???????????? |
Corky,
Dept of Trans approved and sent to Office of Mgt and Budget in late Dec
2003.
OMB has 90 days, this is early Feb, your probably looking at, oh... 90 days.
Skip, one short time beauro
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky@aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question of the week????????????
Pieters,
Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport pilot
bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for awhile. Is
it still breathing?
Corky still waiting in La
Message
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR>
Corky,
Dept of Trans approvedand sent to
Office of Mgt and Budget in late Dec 2003.
OMB has 90 days, this is early Feb, your
probably looking at, oh... 90 days.
Skip, one short time beauro
<FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky@aol.com
AM
Subject:
Pietenpol-List: Question of the week????????????
Pieters,
Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport
pilot bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for
awhile. Is it still breathing?
Corky still waiting in La
Message 5
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Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse?
Dick N.
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: blood, sweat |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" <mhodgson@bu.edu>
Isn't super glue the same as cyano-acrylate, or CA that is used so much
on model airplanes? I think that's also pretty similar to standard
fingernail polish, the remover of which is what they recommend to take
the residual stuff off of your hands when you're putting together ribs
etc. on your latest balsa project. It's pretty strong but I don't think
it's nearly as strong as T-88.
Mark Hodgson
Message 7
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short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b
Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse?
Dick N.
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Message 8
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Subject: | Another change of subject. . . |
Shawn,
For a Piet, or any aircraft with truss type ribs, rib stitching is important
and needed for more than just holding the fabric to the rib. The truss is
very strong in compression, but not as strong in tension. The stitching
helps hold the top and bottom of the wing together.
Now, the Piet rib may be over designed enough that this is not a concern
but, for the one or two days it takes to stitch-up the wing, it is not worth
the risk to me.
Skip
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Wolk
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. . .
Repairs are also simple with the HIPEC, and no ribstitching or tapes at
the ribs.
Message
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Shawn,
For a
Piet, or any aircraft with truss type ribs, rib stitching is important and
needed for more than just holding the fabric to the rib. The truss is very
strong in compression, but not as strong in tension. The stitching helps hold
the top and bottom of the wing together.
Now,
the Piet rib may be over designed enough that this is not a concern but, for the
one or two days it takesto stitch-up the wing, it is not worth the risk to
me.
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Skip
<FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn
Wolk
pietenpol-list
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. .
.
Repairs are also simple with the HIPEC, and no ribstitching
or tapes at the ribs.<FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>
Message 9
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That would be aft c/g. I am looking for most forward. There is a space on the
FAA forms asking for it.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b
short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:59 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b
Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse?
Dick N.
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Message 10
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thats what I'm saying.... 28% is about 16.5" of chord and 33% is almost 20"
thats your limits... at least it is on the GN-1 which has damn near the same
airfoil.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b
That would be aft c/g. I am looking for most forward. There is a space on the
FAA forms asking for it.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Vegh
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b
short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord.
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:59 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b
Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse?
Dick N.
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Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information
on an anti-virus email solution, visit .
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Message 11
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Subject: | RE: Another change of subject. . . |
Yes Skip,
I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings. (mine
is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That is
a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must.
It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia
4 seater.
I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test.
Shawn Wolk
C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper
C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight
yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol.
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . |
Think about the G-loading. 5 Gs would multiply the 7.6 by 5 38. before you dismiss
rib stitching, talk to an old timer; one that flew with grade A. Someone
that had the fabric rip off.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter soon to be Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn Wolk
To: pietenpol-list
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . .
Yes Skip,
I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings.
(mine is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That
is a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must.
It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia
4 seater.
I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test.
Shawn Wolk
C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper
C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight
yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol.
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . |
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Message 14
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Subject: | Re: blood, sweat & tears |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
The closest thing would be those kevlar ones
I gave the link for a couple of days ago.
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=31215&categor
y=2,42407,33246
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" <Jford@indstate.edu>
>
> >>> ever notice the "Ohnosecond"? That's that split-second when you say
> to
> yourself, "Oh, no..." and then whatever it is that you were thinking
> "oh no" about actually happens.
> > paranoid about not having my fingers around to type and play bass.
> Anybody know where a guy can get one of those armored gloves coroners
> use when doing autopsies? ;-)
>
> John Ford
> john@indstate.edu
> 812-237-8542
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: blood, sweat |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <cdawson5854@shaw.ca>
That's the stuff.
And you're right.
Clif
> Isn't super glue the same as cyano-acrylate, or CA that is used so much
> on model airplanes? I think that's also pretty similar to standard
> fingernail polish, the remover of which is what they recommend to take
> the residual stuff off of your hands when you're putting together ribs
> etc. on your latest balsa project. It's pretty strong but I don't think
> it's nearly as strong as T-88.
>
> Mark Hodgson
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . |
Didn't we come to the conclusion sometime last year
that stitching was the way to go. A whole bunch of
messages in the archives including one about a death
attributed to a lack if stitching, wasn't there?
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn Wolk
To: pietenpol-list
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . .
Yes Skip,
I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings.
(mine is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That
is a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must.
It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia
4 seater.
I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test.
Shawn Wolk
C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper
C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight
yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol.
Message 17
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I havent heard of HIPEC that is being discussed. Is it in the catalougs? I checked
ACS and didnt see it.
Whats the 2 cent story about this.
Dick
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Another change of subject. . . |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 2/7/04 1:49:11 AM Central Standard Time,
shawnwolk@sprint.ca writes:
<< and no ribstitching or tapes at the ribs >>
Shawn,
Ribstitching is certainly still necessary.
Chuck G.
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . |
Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched
and I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In fact,
Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive spins, loops,
snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several years and never
had a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on the Avid are about
3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct.
The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the Avid,
the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the
Speedwing and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the plane
easily
cruised better than 100 mph.
I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process
worked well on the Avids.
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . |
I'm sure the new glues are fine but as one who has heard the sickening sound
of fabric ripping off in flight, I plan to rib stitch. That's all that saved
me the first time.
Message 21
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Subject: | RE: Another change of subject. . . |
Rib stitching is fun, and it's a skill uncommon in today's modern world.
Why risk death just to avoid acquiring a unique skill? I would hate to be
thinking to myself as i plunged to my death - "Damn! I sure wish I'd
rib-stitched it!"
Another fact that I'm sure doesn't figure into the Avid or Kitfox is the
undercamber in the Pietenpol's wing. If you just glue it and don't
ribstitch before fully tautening the fabric, it may pull away from the ribs
on the bottom of the wing.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
KRSBtv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . .
Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched
and I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In
fact, Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive
spins, loops, snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several
years and never had a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on
the Avid are about 3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct.
The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the
Avid, the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the
Speedwing and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the
plane easily cruised better than 100 mph.
I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process
worked well on the Avids.
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: RE: Another change of subject. . . Rib Lacing |
It's not THAT bad. I can do one in about 35 to 40 minutes. I've been building
for 8 years and 10 months. I figure another few hours won't really make a difference.
I do have a couple of tips for those thinking about rib lacing.
1) Make sure you leave just enough gap between your rib and any associated compression
struts to get the needle through - else you have to "rib stitch" the
fabric to EACH cap strip (top and bottom) instead of lacing it up and down through
the entire wing. This is a pain.
2) plan your rib lacing around spars and aileron cables carefully. requirements
for a Piet type plane are rib lacing (or stitches) every 2 1/2 inches within
the prop wash area an 3 1/2 inches outside the prop wash area. It never
fails that ONE of those lacings will need to go through a spar, gussett , or
pulley. Take a halogen flood light and lay it on the floor - turn it on and you
can see through the wing like it's saran wrap.
3) Rib lacing is really easy - Polyfiber has a video that shows it really well.
It's just "muscle memory" and takes about an hour to figure it out.
4) The undercamber (concave) bottom is alittle tricky. You have to glue the
fabric to the botton rib cap , heat to 250 degrees, lace, and THEN brush coat
the wing (Polyfiber) - I don't know about the other processes.
There are lots of really neat tricks to it that make it kinda fun. It's like woodwork,
welding, engines, etc. Another neat skill to learn. I respect people
who want to leave it out - but I think it's just one more of the neat little
things that make a fabric plane interesting. Also Polyester fabric is really
strong- it's the peel potential that can get you - lacing every 2 1/2 inches
may mean the difference in limping home and impersonating an anvil.
My 2 cents - only because i'm right here at his very moment.
Bert
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Phillips
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . .
Rib stitching is fun, and it's a skill uncommon in today's modern world. Why
risk death just to avoid acquiring a unique skill? I would hate to be thinking
to myself as i plunged to my death - "Damn! I sure wish I'd rib-stitched
it!"
Another fact that I'm sure doesn't figure into the Avid or Kitfox is the undercamber
in the Pietenpol's wing. If you just glue it and don't ribstitch before
fully tautening the fabric, it may pull away from the ribs on the bottom of
the wing.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KRSBtv@aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:37 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . .
Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched and
I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In fact,
Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive spins, loops,
snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several years and never had
a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on the Avid are about
3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct.
The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the Avid,
the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the Speedwing
and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the plane easily
cruised better than 100 mph.
I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process worked
well on the Avids.
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 2/9/04 7:21:00 AM Central Standard Time,
rhartwig11@juno.com writes:
<< We could have a discussion on the list of things we would like to see at
this fly-in, the 75th anniversary of the Pietenpol Air Camper. >>
I would like to see weight and balance done on everyone willing to
participate with their plane, like they did in '94. Scales, and a no-wind condition
would have to be met for that, in other words, in a hanger. The biggest
problem is the fuel. The pilot must know the precise fuel onboard, so it can be
removed in the paperwork, then an 'Empty Weight Center of Gravity' can be done.
EWCG is the base line where you can figure any configuration of loading the
plane.
Another thing I would like to ask, is if there are any flyers who would
like to participate in an organized formation flight. Long rows of Two by Two,
for a couple of low passes, then re-group in the air to some other formation.
Toss in a photo plane, and there would be some very unique pictures
available. This would all have to be gone over in detail in a Pilot Flight Brief.
Only those in the briefing would be allowed to participate in the formation
flight.
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
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