---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/09/04: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 AM - Re: blood, sweat & tears (John Ford) 2. 05:20 AM - Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In (rhartwig11@juno.com) 3. 06:16 AM - Question of the week???????????? (Isablcorky@aol.com) 4. 06:37 AM - Re: Question of the week???????????? (Gadd, Skip) 5. 08:00 AM - w/b (Richard Navratil) 6. 08:11 AM - Re: blood, sweat (Hodgson, Mark O) 7. 08:22 AM - Re: w/b (DJ Vegh) 8. 10:01 AM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Gadd, Skip) 9. 01:34 PM - Re: w/b (Richard Navratil) 10. 02:11 PM - Re: w/b (DJ Vegh) 11. 04:52 PM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Shawn Wolk) 12. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Cy Galley) 13. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (DJ Vegh) 14. 07:05 PM - Re: blood, sweat & tears (Clif Dawson) 15. 07:09 PM - Re: blood, sweat (Clif Dawson) 16. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Clif Dawson) 17. 07:25 PM - HIPEC (Richard Navratil) 18. 07:31 PM - Re: Another change of subject. . . (Rcaprd@aol.com) 19. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (KRSBtv@aol.com) 20. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (TomTravis@aol.com) 21. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . (Jack Phillips) 22. 08:41 PM - Re: Re: Another change of subject. . . Rib Lacing (Bert Conoly) 23. 09:31 PM - Re: Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:40 AM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: blood, sweat & tears --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" >>> ever notice the "Ohnosecond"? That's that split-second when you say to yourself, "Oh, no..." and then whatever it is that you were thinking "oh no" about actually happens.<<< I think it's the same thing sort of thing as staring into the eyes of the proverbial snake. I used to fixate on not putting my hand in the hush-puppy deep fryer when I worked at Red Lobster in high school, and had to very consciously not do it. The thing terrified me. I've been building a house for 3 years (working in the evenings and weekends) and every time I use a power tool I very deliberately establish that I'm not going to nail myself to the house, cut off something useful or do anything which might increase the kids' vocabularies. After all that, I've still managed to drive a hole clear through my left thumb. I'm a musician in addition to my day job as a computer tech, and awefully paranoid about not having my fingers around to type and play bass. Anybody know where a guy can get one of those armored gloves coroners use when doing autopsies? ;-) John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> MerlinFAC@cfl.rr.com Sunday, February 08, 2004 10:41:10 PM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike Whaley" do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In From: rhartwig11@juno.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com I was at the Brodhead Chapter 431 banquet on Saturday night. Plans are being made for the 2004 Pietenpol Fly-In. I would be willing to make arrangements for a block of rooms at a Madison hotel for those of you who are flying in to Madison or driving. I would try to get a hotel on the South edge of Madison to shorten the daily trip to Brodhead. The daily drive would be 35 to 40 minutes of driving through Wisconsin farmland. If you are interested, please e-mail me directly at rhartwig11@juno.com if you are interested. Having everyone at one hotel would facilitate car pooling. We could have a discussion on the list of things we would like to see at this fly-in, the 75th anniversary of the Pietenpol Air Camper. I will pass along your ideas to our chapter members. Dick Hartwig ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:07 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question of the week???????????? Pieters, Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport pilot bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for awhile. Is it still breathing? Corky still waiting in La ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:56 AM PST US From: "Gadd, Skip" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Question of the week???????????? Corky, Dept of Trans approved and sent to Office of Mgt and Budget in late Dec 2003. OMB has 90 days, this is early Feb, your probably looking at, oh... 90 days. Skip, one short time beauro -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question of the week???????????? Pieters, Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport pilot bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for awhile. Is it still breathing? Corky still waiting in La Message Corky, Dept of Trans approvedand sent to Office of Mgt and Budget in late Dec 2003. OMB has 90 days, this is early Feb, your probably looking at, oh... 90 days. Skip, one short time beauro -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Question of the week???????????? Pieters, Anyone have any idea where they, those exalted beauros, have the sport pilot bundle stashed away??????????? Haven't seen or heard anything for awhile. Is it still breathing? Corky still waiting in La ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:16 AM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse? Dick N. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: blood, sweat From: "Hodgson, Mark O" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" Isn't super glue the same as cyano-acrylate, or CA that is used so much on model airplanes? I think that's also pretty similar to standard fingernail polish, the remover of which is what they recommend to take the residual stuff off of your hands when you're putting together ribs etc. on your latest balsa project. It's pretty strong but I don't think it's nearly as strong as T-88. Mark Hodgson ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:00 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse? Dick N. = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:57 AM PST US From: "Gadd, Skip" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. . . Shawn, For a Piet, or any aircraft with truss type ribs, rib stitching is important and needed for more than just holding the fabric to the rib. The truss is very strong in compression, but not as strong in tension. The stitching helps hold the top and bottom of the wing together. Now, the Piet rib may be over designed enough that this is not a concern but, for the one or two days it takes to stitch-up the wing, it is not worth the risk to me. Skip -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Wolk Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. . . Repairs are also simple with the HIPEC, and no ribstitching or tapes at the ribs. Message Shawn, For a Piet, or any aircraft with truss type ribs, rib stitching is important and needed for more than just holding the fabric to the rib. The truss is very strong in compression, but not as strong in tension. The stitching helps hold the top and bottom of the wing together. Now, the Piet rib may be over designed enough that this is not a concern but, for the one or two days it takesto stitch-up the wing, it is not worth the risk to me. Skip -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Wolk pietenpol-list Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. . . Repairs are also simple with the HIPEC, and no ribstitching or tapes at the ribs. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:16 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b That would be aft c/g. I am looking for most forward. There is a space on the FAA forms asking for it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse? Dick N. This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:40 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b thats what I'm saying.... 28% is about 16.5" of chord and 33% is almost 20" thats your limits... at least it is on the GN-1 which has damn near the same airfoil. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b That would be aft c/g. I am looking for most forward. There is a space on the FAA forms asking for it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: w/b short fuse... long fuse... whatever. It's still between 28-33% of chord. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: w/b Does anyone know what the most forward c/g limit is for a short Fuse? Dick N. This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . = This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:16 PM PST US From: "Shawn Wolk" Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Yes Skip, I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings. (mine is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That is a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must. It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia 4 seater. I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:31 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Think about the G-loading. 5 Gs would multiply the 7.6 by 5 38. before you dismiss rib stitching, talk to an old timer; one that flew with grade A. Someone that had the fabric rip off. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter soon to be Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: Shawn Wolk To: pietenpol-list Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Yes Skip, I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings. (mine is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That is a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must. It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia 4 seater. I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:01 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . tests=FORGED_OUTLOOK_TAGS, MIME_BASE64_LATIN, MIME_BASE64_TEXT QSBmcmllbmQgb2YgbWluZSBhbmQgaGlzIDE2eXIgb2xkIGRhdWdodGVyIGRpZWQgMTggbW9udGhz IGFnbyBpbiBhIEZpc2hlciBDZWxlYnJpdHkgZHVlIHRvIGhpcyBmYWJyaWMgY29taW5nIGxvb3Nl IG9mIHRoZSB1cHBlciByaWdodCB3aW5nIHBhbmVsLiBPbmNlIGl0IHN0YXJ0ZWQgaXQgd2FzIGEg Y2hhaW4gcmVhY3Rpb24gdGhhdCByZXN1bHRlZCBpbiBtYWpvciBjYXRhc3Ryb3BoaWMgZmFpbHVy ZSBvZiB0aGUgYWlyZnJhbWUuDQoNCkl0IHdhcyBvbmx5IGdsdWVkIGFuZCBub3QgcmliIHN0aXRj aGVkLg0KDQpoZXJlIGlzIHRoZSBOVFNCIHByZWxpbToNCg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5udHNiLmdvdi9O VFNCL2JyaWVmLmFzcD9ldl9pZD0yMDAyMDYyOFgwMTAwMSZrZXk9MQ0KDQpGb3Igc2FrZSBvZiBz YWZldHkgb2YgeW91cnNlbGYgYW5kIGFueSBwYXNzZW5nZXIgeW91IGV2ZXIgdGFrZS4uLiBSSUIg U1RJVENIICENCg0KREogVmVnaA0KTjc0RFYNCk1lc2EsIEFaDQp3d3cuaW1hZ2Vkdi5jb20vYWly Y2FtcGVyDQoNCg0KDQotDQoNCi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0gDQpGcm9tOiBD eSBHYWxsZXkgDQpUbzogcGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbSANClNlbnQ6IE1vbmRh eSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMDksIDIwMDQgNjo0MSBQTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0 OiBSRTogQW5vdGhlciBjaGFuZ2Ugb2Ygc3ViamVjdC4gLiAuDQoNCg0KVGhpbmsgYWJvdXQgdGhl IEctbG9hZGluZy4gNSBHcyB3b3VsZCBtdWx0aXBseSB0aGUgNy42IGJ5IDUgPSAzOC4gYmVmb3Jl IHlvdSBkaXNtaXNzIHJpYiBzdGl0Y2hpbmcsIHRhbGsgdG8gYW4gb2xkIHRpbWVyOyBvbmUgdGhh dCBmbGV3IHdpdGggZ3JhZGUgQS4gU29tZW9uZSB0aGF0IGhhZCB0aGUgZmFicmljIHJpcCBvZmYu DQoNCkN5IEdhbGxleSwgVEMgLSBDaGFpciwgRW1lcmdlbmN5IEFpcmNyYWZ0IFJlcGFpciwgT3No a29zaA0KRWRpdG9yLCBFQUEgU2FmZXR5IFByb2dyYW1zDQpjZ2FsbGV5QHFjYmMub3JnIG9yIGV4 cGVyaW1lbnRlckBlYWEub3JnDQoNCkFsd2F5cyBsb29raW5nIGZvciBhcnRpY2xlcyBmb3IgIHRo ZSBFeHBlcmltZW50ZXIgc29vbiB0byBiZSBTcG9ydCBQaWxvdA0KDQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBN ZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogU2hhd24gV29sayANClRvOiBwaWV0ZW5wb2wtbGlzdCANClNl bnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMDksIDIwMDQgNjo1MSBQTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUGlldGVucG9s LUxpc3Q6IFJFOiBBbm90aGVyIGNoYW5nZSBvZiBzdWJqZWN0LiAuIC4NCg0KDQogICBZZXMgU2tp cCwNCiAgICBJIGtpbmQgb2YgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3UuIEJ1dCB3aXRoIHdpdGggdGhlIGluY3Jl ZGlibHkgbG93IHdpbmcgbG9hZGluZ3MuIChtaW5lIGlzIDExODAjIGdyb3NzIGFuZCAzMScgc3Bh bi4uLndvcmtzIG91dCB0byA3LjZsYnMuIHBlciBzcXVhcmUgZnQuKSBUaGF0IGlzIGEgdmVyeSBz bWFsbCBsb2FkIGluIHRlbnNpb24uIElmIHNvbWVvbmUgZmVlbHMgdGhhdCByaWJzdGl0Y2hpbmcg aXMgYSBtdXN0LiBJdCBjYW4gc3RpbGwgYmUgZG9uZSB1c2luZyBISVBFQy4gQSBndXkgb24gb3Vy IGZpZWxkIGRpZCB0aGF0IG9uIGEgQ2hyaXN0YXZpYSA0IHNlYXRlci4NCiAgIEkgcGVyc29uYWxs eSB3YXMgY29udmluY2VkIGFmdGVyIEkgbWFkZSBteSBvd24gZGVzdHJ1Y3RpdmUgdGVzdC4gDQog ICBTaGF3biBXb2xrDQogICBDLUZSQVogUGlldGVucG9sIEFpcmNhbXBlcg0KICAgQy1HWk9UIFNr eWhvcHBlciAyICAgJ0ZpbmFsbHkgdG9vayB0byB0aGUgYWlyIGZvciBpdHMgZmlyc3QgdHdvIGhv dXJzIG9mIGZsaWdodCB5ZXN0ZXJkYXknIFNvIEkgY291bGRuJ3QgZmx5IG15IFBpZXRlbnBvbC4 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:12 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: blood, sweat & tears --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson The closest thing would be those kevlar ones I gave the link for a couple of days ago. http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=1&page=31215&categor y=2,42407,33246 Clif > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > >>> ever notice the "Ohnosecond"? That's that split-second when you say > to > yourself, "Oh, no..." and then whatever it is that you were thinking > "oh no" about actually happens. > > paranoid about not having my fingers around to type and play bass. > Anybody know where a guy can get one of those armored gloves coroners > use when doing autopsies? ;-) > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:33 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: blood, sweat --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson That's the stuff. And you're right. Clif > Isn't super glue the same as cyano-acrylate, or CA that is used so much > on model airplanes? I think that's also pretty similar to standard > fingernail polish, the remover of which is what they recommend to take > the residual stuff off of your hands when you're putting together ribs > etc. on your latest balsa project. It's pretty strong but I don't think > it's nearly as strong as T-88. > > Mark Hodgson ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:38 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Didn't we come to the conclusion sometime last year that stitching was the way to go. A whole bunch of messages in the archives including one about a death attributed to a lack if stitching, wasn't there? Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Shawn Wolk To: pietenpol-list Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:51 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Yes Skip, I kind of agree with you. But with with the incredibly low wing loadings. (mine is 1180# gross and 31' span...works out to 7.6lbs. per square ft.) That is a very small load in tension. If someone feels that ribstitching is a must. It can still be done using HIPEC. A guy on our field did that on a Christavia 4 seater. I personally was convinced after I made my own destructive test. Shawn Wolk C-FRAZ Pietenpol Aircamper C-GZOT Skyhopper 2 'Finally took to the air for its first two hours of flight yesterday' So I couldn't fly my Pietenpol. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:39 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: HIPEC I havent heard of HIPEC that is being discussed. Is it in the catalougs? I checked ACS and didnt see it. Whats the 2 cent story about this. Dick ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:43 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Another change of subject. . . --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 2/7/04 1:49:11 AM Central Standard Time, shawnwolk@sprint.ca writes: << and no ribstitching or tapes at the ribs >> Shawn, Ribstitching is certainly still necessary. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:32 PM PST US From: KRSBtv@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched and I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In fact, Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive spins, loops, snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several years and never had a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on the Avid are about 3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct. The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the Avid, the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the Speedwing and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the plane easily cruised better than 100 mph. I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process worked well on the Avids. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:23 PM PST US From: TomTravis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . I'm sure the new glues are fine but as one who has heard the sickening sound of fabric ripping off in flight, I plan to rib stitch. That's all that saved me the first time. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:08 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Rib stitching is fun, and it's a skill uncommon in today's modern world. Why risk death just to avoid acquiring a unique skill? I would hate to be thinking to myself as i plunged to my death - "Damn! I sure wish I'd rib-stitched it!" Another fact that I'm sure doesn't figure into the Avid or Kitfox is the undercamber in the Pietenpol's wing. If you just glue it and don't ribstitch before fully tautening the fabric, it may pull away from the ribs on the bottom of the wing. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KRSBtv@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched and I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In fact, Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive spins, loops, snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several years and never had a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on the Avid are about 3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct. The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the Avid, the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the Speedwing and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the plane easily cruised better than 100 mph. I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process worked well on the Avids. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:18 PM PST US From: "Bert Conoly" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Rib Lacing It's not THAT bad. I can do one in about 35 to 40 minutes. I've been building for 8 years and 10 months. I figure another few hours won't really make a difference. I do have a couple of tips for those thinking about rib lacing. 1) Make sure you leave just enough gap between your rib and any associated compression struts to get the needle through - else you have to "rib stitch" the fabric to EACH cap strip (top and bottom) instead of lacing it up and down through the entire wing. This is a pain. 2) plan your rib lacing around spars and aileron cables carefully. requirements for a Piet type plane are rib lacing (or stitches) every 2 1/2 inches within the prop wash area an 3 1/2 inches outside the prop wash area. It never fails that ONE of those lacings will need to go through a spar, gussett , or pulley. Take a halogen flood light and lay it on the floor - turn it on and you can see through the wing like it's saran wrap. 3) Rib lacing is really easy - Polyfiber has a video that shows it really well. It's just "muscle memory" and takes about an hour to figure it out. 4) The undercamber (concave) bottom is alittle tricky. You have to glue the fabric to the botton rib cap , heat to 250 degrees, lace, and THEN brush coat the wing (Polyfiber) - I don't know about the other processes. There are lots of really neat tricks to it that make it kinda fun. It's like woodwork, welding, engines, etc. Another neat skill to learn. I respect people who want to leave it out - but I think it's just one more of the neat little things that make a fabric plane interesting. Also Polyester fabric is really strong- it's the peel potential that can get you - lacing every 2 1/2 inches may mean the difference in limping home and impersonating an anvil. My 2 cents - only because i'm right here at his very moment. Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Phillips To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Rib stitching is fun, and it's a skill uncommon in today's modern world. Why risk death just to avoid acquiring a unique skill? I would hate to be thinking to myself as i plunged to my death - "Damn! I sure wish I'd rib-stitched it!" Another fact that I'm sure doesn't figure into the Avid or Kitfox is the undercamber in the Pietenpol's wing. If you just glue it and don't ribstitch before fully tautening the fabric, it may pull away from the ribs on the bottom of the wing. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KRSBtv@aol.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:37 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: Another change of subject. . . Avids and the Kitfox are wing fabrics are generally glued, not rib-stitched and I'm not aware of a single one having fabric separation on a wing. In fact, Jim Metzger, former General Manager of Avid did fairly extensive spins, loops, snap rolls in the Avid Speedwing over the course of several years and never had a problem. This was a Ceconite process. The capstrips on the Avid are about 3/4 inch wide if memory serves me correct. The above mentioned ribs are/were diecut from spruce plywood and in the Avid, the rib was glued to the front spar using a 2-part epoxy glue for the Speedwing and heavy-hauler wings. In the case of the Speedwing Avid, the plane easily cruised better than 100 mph. I'm not advocating that people avoid rib stitching, but the glue on process worked well on the Avids. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:03 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Pietenpol Fly-In --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 2/9/04 7:21:00 AM Central Standard Time, rhartwig11@juno.com writes: << We could have a discussion on the list of things we would like to see at this fly-in, the 75th anniversary of the Pietenpol Air Camper. >> I would like to see weight and balance done on everyone willing to participate with their plane, like they did in '94. Scales, and a no-wind condition would have to be met for that, in other words, in a hanger. The biggest problem is the fuel. The pilot must know the precise fuel onboard, so it can be removed in the paperwork, then an 'Empty Weight Center of Gravity' can be done. EWCG is the base line where you can figure any configuration of loading the plane. Another thing I would like to ask, is if there are any flyers who would like to participate in an organized formation flight. Long rows of Two by Two, for a couple of low passes, then re-group in the air to some other formation. Toss in a photo plane, and there would be some very unique pictures available. This would all have to be gone over in detail in a Pilot Flight Brief. Only those in the briefing would be allowed to participate in the formation flight. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG