Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Wed 03/10/04


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:02 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (Rcaprd@aol.com)
     2. 12:22 AM - Re: tail sections (Rcaprd@aol.com)
     3. 04:34 AM - engine disassembly (Michael D Cuy)
     4. 06:15 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (dave rowe)
     5. 06:17 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (dave rowe)
     6. 06:51 AM - Re: engine disassembly (Cy Galley)
     7. 07:32 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (Cy Galley)
     8. 08:38 AM - Good Luck Steve E! (Fred Weaver)
     9. 08:52 AM - Re: Good Luck Steve E! (Steve Eldredge)
    10. 09:21 AM - Re: Good Luck Steve E! (Fred Weaver)
    11. 09:26 AM - Re: Pietenpol Down (but not out) (Gary Gower)
    12. 09:51 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (Bill Church)
    13. 09:59 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (Gary Gower)
    14. 10:48 AM - Re: engine disassembly (Norman Stapelberg)
    15. 11:21 AM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (jimboyer@direcway.com)
    16. 12:25 PM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (walt evans)
    17. 01:43 PM - Re: engine disassembly (Graham Hansen)
    18. 02:21 PM - Re: engine disassembly (Steve Eldredge)
    19. 04:48 PM - Re: Good Luck Steve E! (dave rowe)
    20. 04:56 PM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (dave rowe)
    21. 05:01 PM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (dave rowe)
    22. 05:02 PM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (dave rowe)
    23. 07:14 PM - Prop strikes (Doc Mosher)
    24. 07:15 PM - Re: aluminum control horns and such (John Dilatush)
    25. 07:31 PM - Re: Prop strikes (bike.mike)
    26. 10:37 PM - nicopress strength - wow! (DJ Vegh)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:02:59 AM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/04 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, tmbrant1@netzero.net writes: << Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? >> Tom, That's a no - no. You're givin' me the hiebie jiebie's !! It might work, but if it doesn't, you're a smoking hole in the ground. Not worth the risk, for all you get. Stick to the plans. Chuck Gantzer


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:22:30 AM PST US
    From: Rcaprd@aol.com
    Subject: Re: tail sections
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/04 10:07:22 PM Central Standard Time, tmbrant1@netzero.net writes: << The wood I used for the fuselage was 1" rough sawn spruce I got from Mckormicks lumber.. When planed, I ended up with 7/8" think boards. For the tail sections I used 1" thk. by 7/8" wide members where 1" sq. members were req'd. Anyone think this will be problem? I know I probably should have checked this before I started but as I saw it, it shouldn't be a problem. I am planning to add 1/8" thk. ply plates to the insided where the hinges mount to the main beams (making them 1" thk. at that point). Just having some second thoughts... I hate deviating from the plans, even a little. >> Tom, The ribs, and all the cross braces in the fuselage would probably consume the spruce you have for the longerons. Then you can purchase 1" X 1" for the longerons. I would also suggest you stick to the plans dimensions for the tail, too. The plywood you mention to bring it up to 1", is to prevent crushing the trailing edge of the stabilizer, right ? That plywood will do nothing to add to bending strength of that member. Chuck Gantzer


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:34:57 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: engine disassembly
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> I thought that engine tear down after a prop strike was only required for certificated aircraft ?


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:15:26 AM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> All of my fittings are 6061T6 Aluminum, and the control horns are all made using 90 degree angle and flat plate. I can send photos directly if you would like. tmbrant1@netzero.net wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > Tom Brant > > > > > > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:17:10 AM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> Again, you have to do some homework. It is very simple to work out the strength of Al vs steel, and then calculate the thickness required. Pietenpol didn't use steel because it was better, 6061T6 didn't exist back then, and steel was cheap and aval. 1/4" 6061T6 is about 3X stronger than the plans specified steel. Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/9/04 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, > tmbrant1@netzero.net writes: > > << Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was > thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment > sections... Dunno - any opinions? >> > > Tom, > That's a no - no. You're givin' me the hiebie jiebie's !! It might work, > but if it doesn't, you're a smoking hole in the ground. Not worth the risk, > for all you get. Stick to the plans. > > Chuck Gantzer > > > > > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:51:12 AM PST US
    From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
    Subject: Re: engine disassembly
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Only on certain engine models with metal prop. The small continentals with wood prop seldom are torn down. Might dial the crank but the beauty of a wood prop is that it gives and not the engine. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine disassembly > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > I thought that engine tear down after a prop strike was only required for > certificated aircraft ? > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:32:19 AM PST US
    From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> My Bellanca with a 216 mph red-line uses 1/8" plate and angle for the aileron horns. Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor-in-Chief & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas every day Quarterly newsletters on time Reasonable document reprints ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave rowe" <rowed044@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> > > Again, you have to do some homework. It is very simple to work out the > strength of Al vs steel, and then calculate the thickness required. > Pietenpol didn't use steel because it was better, 6061T6 didn't exist > back then, and steel was cheap and aval. 1/4" 6061T6 is about 3X > stronger than the plans specified steel. > > Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 3/9/04 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, > > tmbrant1@netzero.net writes: > > > > << Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was > > thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment > > sections... Dunno - any opinions? >> > > > > Tom, > > That's a no - no. You're givin' me the hiebie jiebie's !! It might work, > > but if it doesn't, you're a smoking hole in the ground. Not worth the risk, > > for all you get. Stick to the plans. > > > > Chuck Gantzer > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:38:30 AM PST US
    From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Good Luck Steve E!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net> Chuck.... No dissassembly required for prop strikes on Experimentals, especially prop strikes with wooden props. Only mandatory on Certified Airplanes and "maybe" an experimental with a Metal prop. I'm sure Steve will dial the crank and that's all he should need to do. The engine was rotating at idle probably too and not generating a lot of damaging energy. Note the fact only one prop blade was wiped out. Good Luck Steve E... I know you guys can get it squared away in time. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Down (but not out) > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > Steve, > Sorry to hear about your plane. Thank God it wasn't any worse. I'll bet > Andrew feels terrible about it, and will help a lot with the repairs. It's > really good to hear you plan on getting 'er back in the air as soon as possible, > and making Brodhead this year !! Prop strikes require engine disassemby, > inspection, and N.D.I. the crank...that's the tough part. > > Chuck G. > put me down for 3 hats > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:52:17 AM PST US
    Subject: Good Luck Steve E!
    From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu> I do want to check the engine and crank for damage. This is out of my area of personal experience (not for long however). I appreciate the input on this topic. The engine turns over by hand normally and there isn't any visible engine damage. I do hope that there isn't any engine damage since that will make a repair much more expensive. I'll get more help locally on this issue, but I'd be interested to learn from folks here, how to 'dial the crank' or make other measurements, and what limits they should be within. I assume that it entails mounting a dial micrometer, and turning the crank, while still in the engine and look for wowies. Simple enough in concept, but what are the finer points? Steve E -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Weaver Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Luck Steve E! --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net> Chuck.... No dissassembly required for prop strikes on Experimentals, especially prop strikes with wooden props. Only mandatory on Certified Airplanes and "maybe" an experimental with a Metal prop. I'm sure Steve will dial the crank and that's all he should need to do. The engine was rotating at idle probably too and not generating a lot of damaging energy. Note the fact only one prop blade was wiped out. Good Luck Steve E... I know you guys can get it squared away in time. Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rcaprd@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Down (but not out) > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > Steve, > Sorry to hear about your plane. Thank God it wasn't any worse. I'll bet > Andrew feels terrible about it, and will help a lot with the repairs. It's > really good to hear you plan on getting 'er back in the air as soon as possible, > and making Brodhead this year !! Prop strikes require engine disassemby, > inspection, and N.D.I. the crank...that's the tough part. > > Chuck G. > put me down for 3 hats > > == == == ==


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:21:07 AM PST US
    From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Good Luck Steve E!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@earthlink.net> Steve.... It really is that simple. AND if the flange isn't bent, (I don't know the limits) I wouldn't tear the engine down at all. Just run it... Weav ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Good Luck Steve E! > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu> > > I do want to check the engine and crank for damage. This is out of my > area of personal experience (not for long however). I appreciate the > input on this topic. The engine turns over by hand normally and there > isn't any visible engine damage. I do hope that there isn't any engine > damage since that will make a repair much more expensive. I'll get more > help locally on this issue, but I'd be interested to learn from folks > here, how to 'dial the crank' or make other measurements, and what > limits they should be within. > > I assume that it entails mounting a dial micrometer, and turning the > crank, while still in the engine and look for wowies. Simple enough in > concept, but what are the finer points? > > Steve E > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred > Weaver > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:38 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Luck Steve E! > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" > <Mytyweav@earthlink.net> > > Chuck.... No dissassembly required for prop strikes on Experimentals, > especially prop strikes with wooden props. Only mandatory on Certified > Airplanes and "maybe" an experimental with a Metal prop. I'm sure Steve > will > dial the crank and that's all he should need to do. The engine was > rotating > at idle probably too and not generating a lot of damaging energy. Note > the > fact only one prop blade was wiped out. > > Good Luck Steve E... I know you guys can get it squared away in time. > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Rcaprd@aol.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:51 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Down (but not out) > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > Steve, > > Sorry to hear about your plane. Thank God it wasn't any worse. I'll > bet > > Andrew feels terrible about it, and will help a lot with the repairs. > It's > > really good to hear you plan on getting 'er back in the air as soon as > possible, > > and making Brodhead this year !! Prop strikes require engine > disassemby, > > inspection, and N.D.I. the crank...that's the tough part. > > > > Chuck G. > > put me down for 3 hats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == > == > == > == > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:26:49 AM PST US
    From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Pietenpol Down (but not out)
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> For what I saw in the photo, the prop broked near the tip, and wooden pops break very easy, I dont think the engine got any damage... The problem is with metal propellers. If it was my plane, I will only carve a new prop and install it... Hope I dont start a flame war. I have broked 3 props in Rotax engines (in 12 years of UL flying) , never had a problem with the engine crank. Knock wood. Baseball players never go to X-Ray when they break a bat :-) :-) Just my point of view. Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive. --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > Steve, > Sorry to hear about your plane. Thank God it wasn't any worse. I'll > bet > Andrew feels terrible about it, and will help a lot with the repairs. > It's > really good to hear you plan on getting 'er back in the air as soon > as possible, > and making Brodhead this year !! Prop strikes require engine > disassemby, > inspection, and N.D.I. the crank...that's the tough part. > > Chuck G. > put me down for 3 hats > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:51:59 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Subject: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com> Tom, Something to be aware of is the fact that aluminum loses a lot of its strength in the weld zone. For instance, for 6061-T6, the design stress (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to 14,000 psi within 1 inch of the weld. That's more than 40% loss of strength! And, the welds are usually at the points of greatest stress. Bill --Original Message----- Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? Tom Brant


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:59:12 AM PST US
    From: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> We all know that the Piet is overbuilt by design... has been discused for years, since Mr Grants newsletters, but here is one comment I read someplace... "For every change you make off the plans, even little ones, you have to add at least 100 hrs to the building process..." I dont know if this is correct, but maybe this explains why the kit built planes are at least more than double the building time as specified by the factory advertisement :-) The Piet is a historic plane, maybe not the best in performance, but a great airplane, try to build it as to the plans as possible. Saludos Gary Gower Only a comment, Do not archive. --- Cy Galley <cgalley@qcbc.org> wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> > > My Bellanca with a 216 mph red-line uses 1/8" plate and angle for the > aileron horns. > > Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club > Newsletter Editor-in-Chief & EAA TC > www.bellanca-championclub.com > Actively supporting Aeroncas every day > Quarterly newsletters on time > Reasonable document reprints > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dave rowe" <rowed044@shaw.ca> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:20 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> > > > > Again, you have to do some homework. It is very simple to work out > the > > strength of Al vs steel, and then calculate the thickness required. > > Pietenpol didn't use steel because it was better, 6061T6 didn't > exist > > back then, and steel was cheap and aval. 1/4" 6061T6 is about 3X > > stronger than the plans specified steel. > > > > Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 3/9/04 10:02:15 PM Central Standard Time, > > > tmbrant1@netzero.net writes: > > > > > > << Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? > I was > > > thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on > the > attachment > > > sections... Dunno - any opinions? >> > > > > > > Tom, > > > That's a no - no. You're givin' me the hiebie jiebie's !! It > might > work, > > > but if it doesn't, you're a smoking hole in the ground. Not > worth the > risk, > > > for all you get. Stick to the plans. > > > > > > Chuck Gantzer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://search.yahoo.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:48:33 AM PST US
    From: "Norman Stapelberg" <norshel@mweb.co.za>
    Subject: engine disassembly
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Norman Stapelberg" <norshel@mweb.co.za> Just thought I'd throw this one out there, Lycoming 0-235 lost a blade in flight should the motor be torn down or just dial the crank. Norman ZS-VJA (rebuilding) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cy Galley Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine disassembly --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org> Only on certain engine models with metal prop. The small continentals with wood prop seldom are torn down. Might dial the crank but the beauty of a wood prop is that it gives and not the engine. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engine disassembly > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> > > I thought that engine tear down after a prop strike was only required for > certificated aircraft ? > > == == == ==


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:21:11 AM PST US
    From: jimboyer@direcway.com
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: jimboyer@direcway.com Hi Dave, I would appreciate seeing photos of your aluminium fittings if you have them. Managed to knaw mine out of steel but Alum. would sure be easier to use. Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> > > All of my fittings are 6061T6 Aluminum, and the control horns are all > made using 90 degree angle and flat plate. I can send photos directly > if you would like. > > tmbrant1@netzero.net wrote: > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I > was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on > the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > > > Tom Brant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ======================================================================== > > > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:25:57 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> Tom, Seems to me that , that is alot of work only to get a fitting that might weigh more than the steel one. The steel on the original horns are very thin (forget the guage) and suprisingly light when done. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <tmbrant1@netzero.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > Tom Brant > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 01:43:42 PM PST US
    From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
    Subject: Re: engine disassembly
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Steve, Around twenty years ago I asked a veteran mechanic if he had ever seen a crankshaft or engine damaged by a wooden propeller strike. Since that time, I have asked at least ten experienced aircraft mechanics the same question and always received the same answer: "Never." Since I have been a licensed aircraft mechanic since 1953, I guess I also fall into the "veteran" category. I have seen lots of engines seriously damaged by a metal propeller strike, but never with a wooden propeller. So long as the crankshaft flange has not contacted anything hard, you should be OK. However, a thorough inspection of just about everything is in order, including: ---checking runout and a dye penetrant inspection of the exposed crankshaft; ---inspecting engine mount and fittings; ---inspecting the upper spar flanges just outboard from the wing strut attach points* for compression failure; ---inspecting the lower longerons near the landing gear attachment points. * On the side that contacted the ground. Tough luck, but it could have been much worse. You should soon be operational again . Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) Alberta, Canada


    Message 18


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    Time: 02:21:16 PM PST US
    Subject: engine disassembly
    From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu> Very good suggestions, and I'll take them. One thing I noticed when I removed the prop, The tapered crankshaft is smooth, but has a very fine coating of rust dust. I assume that this isn't a good sign. It wipes off both the crank and the hub, but I expected bare or at least finished metal. Thanks again, Steve e -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Hansen Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engine disassembly --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net> Steve, Around twenty years ago I asked a veteran mechanic if he had ever seen a crankshaft or engine damaged by a wooden propeller strike. Since that time, I have asked at least ten experienced aircraft mechanics the same question and always received the same answer: "Never." Since I have been a licensed aircraft mechanic since 1953, I guess I also fall into the "veteran" category. I have seen lots of engines seriously damaged by a metal propeller strike, but never with a wooden propeller. So long as the crankshaft flange has not contacted anything hard, you should be OK. However, a thorough inspection of just about everything is in order, including: ---checking runout and a dye penetrant inspection of the exposed crankshaft; ---inspecting engine mount and fittings; ---inspecting the upper spar flanges just outboard from the wing strut attach points* for compression failure; ---inspecting the lower longerons near the landing gear attachment points. * On the side that contacted the ground. Tough luck, but it could have been much worse. You should soon be operational again . Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) Alberta, Canada == == == ==


    Message 19


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    Time: 04:48:20 PM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Good Luck Steve E!
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> That is exactly all there is to it. Find an owners/repair manual for the engine, and check the allowable runout on the crankshaft. Compare it to the dial readings. Voila!! (Any chilton auto repair manual will show detailed photos on setting up and using the dial indicator for crankshaft runout. I bet an offer of a six-pack and any of the local mechanics will be happy to show you how. Steve Eldredge wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu> > > I do want to check the engine and crank for damage. This is out of my > area of personal experience (not for long however). I appreciate the > input on this topic. The engine turns over by hand normally and there > isn't any visible engine damage. I do hope that there isn't any engine > damage since that will make a repair much more expensive. I'll get more > help locally on this issue, but I'd be interested to learn from folks > here, how to 'dial the crank' or make other measurements, and what > limits they should be within. > > I assume that it entails mounting a dial micrometer, and turning the > crank, while still in the engine and look for wowies. Simple enough in > concept, but what are the finer points? > > Steve E > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred > Weaver > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:38 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Good Luck Steve E! > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" > <Mytyweav@earthlink.net> > > Chuck.... No dissassembly required for prop strikes on Experimentals, > especially prop strikes with wooden props. Only mandatory on Certified > Airplanes and "maybe" an experimental with a Metal prop. I'm sure Steve > will > dial the crank and that's all he should need to do. The engine was > rotating > at idle probably too and not generating a lot of damaging energy. Note > the > fact only one prop blade was wiped out. > > Good Luck Steve E... I know you guys can get it squared away in time. > Weav > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Rcaprd@aol.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:51 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Down (but not out) > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > Steve, > > Sorry to hear about your plane. Thank God it wasn't any worse. I'll > bet > > Andrew feels terrible about it, and will help a lot with the repairs. > It's > > really good to hear you plan on getting 'er back in the air as soon as > possible, > > and making Brodhead this year !! Prop strikes require engine > disassemby, > > inspection, and N.D.I. the crank...that's the tough part. > > > > Chuck G. > > put me down for 3 hats > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == > == > == > == > > > > > > > > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:56:21 PM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> Sur thing, I'll be doing some photos tonight, and sorting through my folders on the computer, and fire off a bunch. I was way too lazy to start bending stuff, so everything is set to use flat plate and angle pieces only, including the pulley brackets for the ailerons. Will fwd photos later tonight or tomorrow, depending on how much I get done in the shop tonight!! jimboyer@direcway.com wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: jimboyer@direcway.com > > Hi Dave, > > I would appreciate seeing photos of your aluminium fittings if you have them. > Managed to knaw mine out of steel but Alum. would sure be easier to use. > > Thanks, Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> > Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:16 am > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> > > > > All of my fittings are 6061T6 Aluminum, and the control horns are all > > made using 90 degree angle and flat plate. I can send photos directly > > if you would like. > > > > tmbrant1@netzero.net wrote: > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > > > > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I > > was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on > > the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > > > > > Tom Brant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > > _- > > _- > > _- > > ======================================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 05:01:06 PM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> Hence the parts that I built that don't require any bending or welding whatsoever. It took one evening to make all of the control horns, hinges, and wing attachment fittings, no special tools required, just my trusty old bandsaw with a $10.00 metal blade, and a drill press. The control columns were a different matter, as welding is involved, I went with steel, entire assembly took one evening, and will cost me a pound of smoked salmon (my other hobby)to get the welds done. Again, if Tom or anyone else would like more info and photos, contact me directly and I'll send. Now that I have worked with both steel and aluminum, I do prefer aluminum for most things, but there is no rocket science to steel either, and if welding is a must, go with the steel. Now, can we discuss wooden wing struts and landing gear??? Still would love to see more input on that issue!! Cheers. Bill Church wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com> > > Tom, > > Something to be aware of is the fact that aluminum loses a lot of its > strength in the weld zone. For instance, for 6061-T6, the design stress > (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to 14,000 psi within 1 inch of the > weld. That's more than 40% loss of strength! And, the welds are usually > at the points of greatest stress. > > Bill > > --Original Message----- > Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was > thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the > attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > Tom Brant > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 05:02:17 PM PST US
    From: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    <001e01c406dd$d63e1b30$2cc5fea9@home> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe <rowed044@shaw.ca> From me again, if you do all the claculating, you can build in Al, get same strength, and weight, but the difference in either isn't worth worrying about, I think it's just about what you feel more familiar/comfortable working with. For me, avalability and cost were main motivators. We have to pay to dispose of scrap 6061T6, which we have in abundance, so I was able to get my CO's permission to have the guys set aside any scrap in useful sizes. The local supplier will sell to me at a discount, he likes military people and homebuilders, so I just could not justify using steel. Our aircraft structures technicians are definately subject matter experts, and inspect and advise on everything I do. I definately trust their judgement, I fly in the results of their labour almost daily! walt evans wrote: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> > > Tom, > Seems to me that , that is alot of work only to get a fitting that might > weigh more than the steel one. The steel on the original horns are very > thin (forget the guage) and suprisingly light when done. > walt evans > NX140DL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <tmbrant1@netzero.net> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 10:56 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > > > > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was > thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the > attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > > > Tom Brant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 07:14:32 PM PST US
    From: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net>
    Subject: Prop strikes
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> The EAA Chapter 866 (Titusville Florida) Smilin' Jack newsletter contained this descriptive note. It makes Steve's landing gear failure look relatively minor (not that that is any help, Steve). If you are going to run your engine with nobody in the cockpit, TIE THE TAIL TO A TREE. Right here in Oshkosh I can show you a tree (by the EAA chapel) that made a Piper J4 into a sweptwing, a severe mark on a hangar corner some 200 feet from where the airplane started, and several other horror stories. Anyhow, this is a Pietenpol story, so it qualifies for Matt's website. I quote: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Jim Webb told his story about an incident with his Pietenpol. The engine was mounted on the fuselage with his brand new prop on it. Wings were not mounted yet. He was adjusting linkage on the throttle cable and had loosened the nut that jams the cable at the connection point to the linkage on the carburetor. After this with the wheels chocked with 2 x 4s he started the engine. The throttle went wide open and when he pulled the throttle back to idle, it had no effect. The fuselage jumped the chocks and Jim was being dragged around unable to get control. Jim said he tried to steer it into an orange tree but it kept doing 360s in his driveway. Finally it decided it wanted to go into the garage and wreak havoc in there. The prop hit the top of the garage door frame taking some of the prop away. Then it spotted the wings he's built for her and promptly headed for those while dragging Jim along. The prop grabbed the wngs and got hold of the cables and just wrapped them up around the hub and totally destroyed the wings. Jim finally hit the primary switch and shut the engine down. Wow! Luckily, Jim said, I wasn't seriously hurt, the house wasn't destroyed, and no one else was hurt. Jim said that even though the wings were destroyed, no glue joint broke and no pulleys or connection points failed. Jim said I went out and bought a book to read and Beatrice and I got in the motorhome and went to Sebring for three days . . . . . Good attitude Jim! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Doc Mosher do not archive Oshkosh USA


    Message 24


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    Time: 07:15:24 PM PST US
    From: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net>
    Subject: Re: aluminum control horns and such
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" <dilatush@amigo.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: <tmbrant1@netzero.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: aluminum control horns and such ================================== Tom, You certainly might do this, after of course, doing some elementary stress calculations to see if the aluminum would carry the anticipated loads. BTW, I think that I heard or read someplace that Bernard Pietenpol actually used the steel from discarded 55 gal drums to make some of his fittings! John ================================== > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: tmbrant1@netzero.net > > > Anyone use something like 1/4" solid alum. control fittings? I was thinking this could be done - laser out the shapes and weld on the attachment sections... Dunno - any opinions? > > Tom Brant > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 07:31:48 PM PST US
    From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Prop strikes
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net> Doc, I don't understand why you included the "do not arc****" phrase. This is a great story (except for Jim) and it may save an airplane or two, and possibly somebody's life . Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Prop strikes > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher <docshop@tds.net> > > The EAA Chapter 866 (Titusville Florida) Smilin' Jack newsletter contained > this descriptive note. It makes Steve's landing gear failure look > relatively minor (not that that is any help, Steve). If you are going to > run your engine with nobody in the cockpit, TIE THE TAIL TO A TREE. Right > here in Oshkosh I can show you a tree (by the EAA chapel) that made a Piper > J4 into a sweptwing, a severe mark on a hangar corner some 200 feet from > where the airplane started, and several other horror stories. > > Anyhow, this is a Pietenpol story, so it qualifies for Matt's website. I > quote: > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Jim Webb told his story about an incident with his Pietenpol. The engine > was mounted on the fuselage with his brand new prop on it. Wings were not > mounted yet. He was adjusting linkage on the throttle cable and had > loosened the nut that jams the cable at the connection point to the linkage > on the carburetor. After this with the wheels chocked with 2 x 4s he > started the engine. The throttle went wide open and when he pulled the > throttle back to idle, it had no effect. The fuselage jumped the chocks > and Jim was being dragged around unable to get control. Jim said he tried > to steer it into an orange tree but it kept doing 360s in his > driveway. Finally it decided it wanted to go into the garage and wreak > havoc in there. The prop hit the top of the garage door frame taking some > of the prop away. Then it spotted the wings he's built for her and > promptly headed for those while dragging Jim along. The prop grabbed the > wngs and got hold of the cables and just wrapped them up around the hub and > totally destroyed the wings. Jim finally hit the primary switch and shut > the engine down. Wow! Luckily, Jim said, I wasn't seriously hurt, the > house wasn't destroyed, and no one else was hurt. Jim said that even > though the wings were destroyed, no glue joint broke and no pulleys or > connection points failed. Jim said I went out and bought a book to read > and Beatrice and I got in the motorhome and went to Sebring for three days > . . . . . > Good attitude Jim! > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Doc Mosher > Oshkosh USA >


    Message 26


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    Time: 10:37:30 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
    Subject: nicopress strength - wow!
    Q29uZHVjdGVkIGEgbGl0dGxlIGV4cGVyaW1lbnQgdG9kYXkuICBJIGluc3RhbGxlZCBhIG5pY29w cmVzcyBzbGVldmUgb24gYSAxLzgiIGNhYmxlLiAgRGlkIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCBkZWFsLi4uIEFO MTAwIHRoaW1ibGUgYW5kIGEgMyBwcmVzcyBwcm9jZXNzIG9uIHRoZSBzbGVldmUgd2l0aCBhIE5h dGlvbmFsIFRlbGVwaG9uZSBDby4gU3dhZ2luZyB0b29sICh3aGljaCBJIGFic29sdXRlbHkgbG92 ZSEpDQoNClRoZW4sIHVzaW5nIGEgZHJlbWVsIEkgY3V0IHRocm91Z2ggb25lIHNpZGUgb2YgdGhl IGNvcHBlciBzbGVldmUuICBSaWdodCBkb3duIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUuICBUaGVuIEkgc3R1Y2sgYSBm bGF0IGhlYWQgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgaW4gdGhlIGN1dCBtYWRlIGJ5IHRoZSBkcmVtZWwgYW5kIHBy aWVkIHRoZSBzbGVldmUgb3BlbiBhIGxpdHRsZS4gIFRoZSB0d28gY2FibGVzIGluIHRoZSBzbGVl dmUgd2VyZSB2aXNpYmxlLg0KDQpJIHRoZW4gcHV0IGFib3V0IDQwMGxiIG9mIGZvcmNlIG9uIHRo ZSBjYWJsZS9uaWNvcHJlc3MuICBJdCBkaWRuJ3QgZXZlbiBiZWdpbiB0byBtb3ZlLiAgSXQgd2Fz IGFtYXppbmcuICBUaGUgTmljb3ByZXNzIHByb2Nlc3MgaXMganVzdCBncmVhdC4gIEV2ZW4gYSBz ZXZlcmVseSBjb21wcm9taXNlZCBuaWNvcHJlc3MgaGFkIHRoZSBhYmlsaXR5IHRvIGhvbGQgdXAg dG8gYWJvdXQgMjAlIG9mIHRoZSBjYWJsZSdzIHJhdGVkIHN0cmVuZ3RoIGFuZCBtYXliZSBldmVu IG1vcmUuDQoNCk1ha2VzIG1lIGxhdWdoIG5vdyB3aGVuIEkgc2VlIHVsdHJhbGlnaHQgZ3V5cyBh bmQgZXZlbiBzb21lIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbHMgd2hvIGhhdmUgMiBhbmQgc29tZXRpbWVzIDMgbmlj b3ByZXNzZXMgYXQgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiBhIGNhYmxlLiAgVGhhdCBjYWJsZSB3aWxsIGZhaWwgTE9O RyBiZWZvcmUgYW55IHNpbmdsZSBuaWNvcHJlc3Mgd2lsbC4NCg0KQW55aG93Li4uIG5vdGhpbmcg cmVhbCBpbXBvcnRhbnQgdG8gcG9zdC4uIGp1c3QgdGhvdWdodCBJJ2Qgc2hhcmUgYSBiaXQgb2Yg bXkgYW1hemVtZW50Lg0KDQpESiBWZWdoDQpONzREVg0KTWVzYSwgQVoNCnd3dy5pbWFnZWR2LmNv bS9haXJjYW1wZXINCg0KDQoNCi0NCg0K




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