Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:41 AM - Re: The hardest part (Richard Navratil)
2. 07:49 AM - the myths about rib stitching (Michael D Cuy)
3. 07:52 AM - Re: The hardest part (DumpedDogs@aol.com)
4. 08:08 AM - Re: The hardest part (DJ Vegh)
5. 08:30 AM - bunch of crap (Michael D Cuy)
6. 09:19 AM - Re: bunch of crap (Gary Gower)
7. 09:31 AM - Re: The hardest part (Christian Bobka)
8. 09:37 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 03/16/04 (ANNCARLEK@aol.com)
9. 10:20 AM - Covering of the fuselage (Norman Stapelberg)
10. 10:39 AM - Re: The hardest part (Richard Navratil)
11. 02:57 PM - Landing gear (PAT HOEVELMANN)
12. 04:14 PM - Aerocarb on Ebay (DJ Vegh)
13. 04:18 PM - Aerocarb for sale (DJ Vegh)
14. 08:11 PM - Re: Beginning to Build - Questions (Bruce __)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: The hardest part |
Maybe I'm doing too much here, but in my conversations with Dave Smith at MSP MIDO
, who is supervising my inspection, they are asking for more. He says the
log is to include pictures of sub assemblies not visable, a written description
of work preformed, including outside help received, detail of any modifications
from plan and a cronological timeline of construction. I just passed 20
pages on this part.
The operation manual is to include a parts list, weight balance data, anticipated
operation limits and preformance data. I was told the Cessna 150 manual might
be a good base for design.
The Advisory Circular for Homebuilts states that all aircraft must have an Operations
Manual for flight. Am I wrong on this point?
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Catdesign
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Why are you rewriting your builder log??? As I read it should not matter what
it looks like as the Regs are not specific as to what a log is. If a bunch
of pictures and a few written descriptions wont suffice I'm in deep trouble.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Somebody once said that the hardest part to build on a Piet, are the legs for
the straight gear. I'm finding now it's got to be all of this paperwork.
I hate paperwork. Re-writting the builders log and writing an Operations manual
getting a little frustrating.
Has anyone published a Operation s Manual for the Piet?
Dick N.
Message 2
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| Subject: | the myths about rib stitching |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
I almost hate to bring this up because of the recent string of e-mails on
this subject but I thought I'd try to encourage those
who have this unfounded fear about the complexity and time that they
perceive rib stitching will demand.
When trying to learn this skill, I ordered the poly fiber book to see how
to rib stitch but the step-by-step diagrams left me with a mess of string
and no confidence at all. My wife and I then spent about 2 hours learning
and practicing rib stitching for free under the poly fiber tent at Oshkosh
a few years back. The hands on teaching was what it took to get it thru
my thick head that this was not a black art or superhuman skill only
achieved by the old masters of wood and fabric airplanes. Hogwash. I
learn better hands-on but you may be able to learn from the book. I think
that poly fiber or EAA offers a videotape too on how-to do fabric
work.
Anyway, yesterday I took the afternoon off to help a friend rib stitch his
Fly Baby wings. Our other friend came along to help and my method of
doing the seine knot (or insane as we like to call it) was different from
Bill's method-- but we both ended up with the SAME knot ! We taught the
owner of the Fly Baby (72 years old) how to rib lace in about 40 minutes
and before the clock hit midnight we had BOTH wings completely
done. Just don't get discouraged over fabric covering and rib stitching
is what I'm trying to say and don't take any cheap, weak, shortcuts that
might kill you or your passenger. Nuff things can kill us when flying.
Dig out there for help wether it be someone who knows how to stitch and is
willing to teach you or the books or video resources we have
available. Don't let someone tell you either that this is the ONLY way
you can rib lace. There are many ways to get to the same knot or two knots
that are both acceptable. Many pilots and builders are quite full of
themselves and forget to be open-minded about how to skin a cat. Tony
Bingelis is fantastic in this respect in his books (tho he doesn't show
how to stitch step by step) in that he gives the builder several options on
"how-to" do the many tasks that face us during building.
Keep on and don't let anything hold you back--including yourself !!
Mike C.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: The hardest part |
Dick:
I think your guy telling you that he wants all this documentation, pictures
and paperwork is constipated.
When I built my Avid a few years ago, the FSDO guy came out, looked at my
binder. I had probably 20 photos of the construction process with a caption of
a
sentence or so for each picture. My dad (has and A&P license) signed each
photo/caption. I also had my weight and balancce and the builder's manual laying
on a table and another binder full of receipts.
The FSDO guy looked at my stuff and was gone in about 12 minutes. I flew the
airplane later that day.
Maybe you need to find a "kinder and gentler" FSDO rep.
Good luck.
S.B.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: The hardest part |
this is the main reason I am doing an online log. I have it broken down by date,
process & time spent. Each entry having multiple pics and a textual description.
It's a pain to keep it up now but in the end it'll save my ass.
When the DAR comes out I'll just pull out my laptop which will have the entire
website loaded onto it. He can sit there and click each entry if he so chooses.
DJ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Maybe I'm doing too much here, but in my conversations with Dave Smith at MSP MIDO
, who is supervising my inspection, they are asking for more. He says the
log is to include pictures of sub assemblies not visable, a written description
of work preformed, including outside help received, detail of any modifications
from plan and a cronological timeline of construction. I just passed 20
pages on this part.
The operation manual is to include a parts list, weight balance data, anticipated
operation limits and preformance data. I was told the Cessna 150 manual might
be a good base for design.
The Advisory Circular for Homebuilts states that all aircraft must have an Operations
Manual for flight. Am I wrong on this point?
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Catdesign
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Why are you rewriting your builder log??? As I read it should not matter what
it looks like as the Regs are not specific as to what a log is. If a bunch
of pictures and a few written descriptions wont suffice I'm in deep trouble.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Somebody once said that the hardest part to build on a Piet, are the legs for
the straight gear. I'm finding now it's got to be all of this paperwork.
I hate paperwork. Re-writting the builders log and writing an Operations manual
getting a little frustrating.
Has anyone published a Operation s Manual for the Piet?
Dick N.
=
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Message 5
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<002d01c40bea$89714090$a1179341@Spot>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Dick-- Why did the head of our MIDO office just want to see the invoices
for my raw material purchases and photos of my progress during
building. Your guy is going wayyyyy overboard and I would call him on it
bigtime. Trouble with these inspectors is that they take way too many
liberties about what is required from inspector to inspector. There must
be some guidelines that they have to follow. I would get another
inspector or DAR.
How the heck to you know what your performance figures are going to be
until you FLY the blasted airplane. And he wants a PARTS list ???? Where
the heck does it require you to have this ??? This guy is wacko. I'll
gladly forward my FAA guy's email to you off-line so those two can
talk. I don't mean to sound irritated at you by any means at all--- I
just think that this guy needs to lighten up and make sure your plane is
AIRWORTHY and that you have built the majority of it yourself. The
so-called not in the regs 51% rule that everyone calls the 51% rule. That
is a majority last time I took statistics. Anyway---I think this guy is
way out of line.
Mike C.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: bunch of crap |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
Cant believe it, sounds like some "third world country" inspectors
that makes things as dificult as possible, until a "few" green papers
are handled under the counter ;-)
Get another one with a smaller EGO! They have to be several friendly
ones around your area...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.
--- Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> Dick-- Why did the head of our MIDO office just want to see the
> invoices
> for my raw material purchases and photos of my progress during
> building. Your guy is going wayyyyy overboard and I would call him
> on it
> bigtime. Trouble with these inspectors is that they take way too
> many
> liberties about what is required from inspector to inspector. There
> must
> be some guidelines that they have to follow. I would get another
> inspector or DAR.
>
> How the heck to you know what your performance figures are going to
> be
> until you FLY the blasted airplane. And he wants a PARTS list ????
> Where
> the heck does it require you to have this ??? This guy is wacko.
> I'll
> gladly forward my FAA guy's email to you off-line so those two can
> talk. I don't mean to sound irritated at you by any means at all---
> I
> just think that this guy needs to lighten up and make sure your plane
> is
> AIRWORTHY and that you have built the majority of it yourself. The
> so-called not in the regs 51% rule that everyone calls the 51% rule.
> That
> is a majority last time I took statistics. Anyway---I think this
> guy is
> way out of line.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: The hardest part |
Dick,
An ADVISORY Circular is just that, it is advisory. It is not regulation.
You should call EAA builder assistance at 888 322 4636 and ask them what is deemed
minimum acceptable for a builder's log and operating limitations. I always
have been told that the builder's log's purpose is to show that more than 50%
was built by an amateur, not even necessarily you. The operating limitations
(not to be confused with the Operations Limitations that the FAA issues you
with the airworthiness paperwork) are to be determined during the test phase,
chronicled in your aircraft logbook, and then adhered to in the final phase of
your airworthiness period.
"detail of any modifications from plan"
What would this guy want if you designed the aircraft yourself, off of the top
of your head? A full set of plans is not required, merely a three view of the
aircraft. He is making an assumption that following the plans would actually
build an airworthy aircraft and this is not always true.
A parts list? Two parts....this part and that part.
I renew my IA next week. I will find this guy at the seminar and talk to him.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Maybe I'm doing too much here, but in my conversations with Dave Smith at MSP
MIDO , who is supervising my inspection, they are asking for more. He says the
log is to include pictures of sub assemblies not visable, a written description
of work preformed, including outside help received, detail of any modifications
from plan and a cronological timeline of construction. I just passed 20
pages on this part.
The operation manual is to include a parts list, weight balance data, anticipated
operation limits and preformance data. I was told the Cessna 150 manual
might be a good base for design.
The Advisory Circular for Homebuilts states that all aircraft must have an Operations
Manual for flight. Am I wrong on this point?
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Catdesign
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Why are you rewriting your builder log??? As I read it should not matter what
it looks like as the Regs are not specific as to what a log is. If a bunch
of pictures and a few written descriptions wont suffice I'm in deep trouble.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Somebody once said that the hardest part to build on a Piet, are the legs
for the straight gear. I'm finding now it's got to be all of this paperwork.
I hate paperwork. Re-writting the builders log and writing an Operations manual
getting a little frustrating.
Has anyone published a Operation s Manual for the Piet?
Dick N.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 03/16/04 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: ANNCARLEK@aol.com
In a message dated 3/16/04 11:57:11 PM, pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com
writes:
<< From: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Beginning to Build - Questions
>>
I recently finished up all of my ribs, and used one pint of T-88 for all. But
I laminated my four spars, using seven layers, and used three pint kits for
this. I buy the T-88 a pint at a time, so that it will be fresh. I'm going to
try to weigh my wing components today, but so far, I don't think that there is
any real difference in total weight between my Vertical Grain Kiln-dried
Douglas Fir and AS&S Spruce. When we compared Fuse weights, mine was 71 lbs., vs.
70 for the Spruce approach. And you can still get very good Douglas Fir at your
local lumber yard. I did choose Basswood plywood for all my ply things, it
being lighter and glues better. Carl L , Compton Airport.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Covering of the fuselage |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Norman Stapelberg" <norshel@mweb.co.za>
Just thought I'd ask while I am waiting for my material to arrive,
what is the covering procedure/sequence of the fuselage, got the
fuselage back and should be ready in the new week for covering, just a
couple of small things to do.
Cheers
Norman
South Africa
ZS-VJA (rebuilding)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The hardest part |
Mike and Chris
On the phone he has been nice. Since I have already done most of the work, I would
prefer not to upset things at this point. Joe Norris from EAA will actually
be the one to do the inspection. I will call him to go over these issues.
Dick
Chris, Hopefully we'll chat at the EAA meeting tonight.
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Bobka
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Dick,
An ADVISORY Circular is just that, it is advisory. It is not regulation.
You should call EAA builder assistance at 888 322 4636 and ask them what is deemed
minimum acceptable for a builder's log and operating limitations. I always
have been told that the builder's log's purpose is to show that more than
50% was built by an amateur, not even necessarily you. The operating limitations
(not to be confused with the Operations Limitations that the FAA issues you
with the airworthiness paperwork) are to be determined during the test phase,
chronicled in your aircraft logbook, and then adhered to in the final phase
of your airworthiness period.
"detail of any modifications from plan"
What would this guy want if you designed the aircraft yourself, off of the top
of your head? A full set of plans is not required, merely a three view of
the aircraft. He is making an assumption that following the plans would actually
build an airworthy aircraft and this is not always true.
A parts list? Two parts....this part and that part.
I renew my IA next week. I will find this guy at the seminar and talk to him.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Maybe I'm doing too much here, but in my conversations with Dave Smith at MSP
MIDO , who is supervising my inspection, they are asking for more. He says
the log is to include pictures of sub assemblies not visable, a written description
of work preformed, including outside help received, detail of any modifications
from plan and a cronological timeline of construction. I just passed
20 pages on this part.
The operation manual is to include a parts list, weight balance data, anticipated
operation limits and preformance data. I was told the Cessna 150 manual
might be a good base for design.
The Advisory Circular for Homebuilts states that all aircraft must have an
Operations Manual for flight. Am I wrong on this point?
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Catdesign
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Why are you rewriting your builder log??? As I read it should not matter
what it looks like as the Regs are not specific as to what a log is. If a bunch
of pictures and a few written descriptions wont suffice I'm in deep trouble.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The hardest part
Somebody once said that the hardest part to build on a Piet, are the legs
for the straight gear. I'm finding now it's got to be all of this paperwork.
I hate paperwork. Re-writting the builders log and writing an Operations
manual getting a little frustrating.
Has anyone published a Operation s Manual for the Piet?
Dick N.
Message 11
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I am about to purchase my landing gear from St.Croix aircraft, I found them in
the Pietenpol directory. I wanted to know if anyone has purchased anything from
them. I also wanted to know what size axels to put on it and what size wheels
I should use. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks,
J.J. Hoevelmann
Message 12
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| Subject: | Aerocarb on Ebay |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
didn't get much interest on selling my Aerocarb so I put it up on ebay... if
anyone is interested here's the link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2467879692
DJ Vegh
N74DV
Mesa, AZ
www.imagedv.com/aircamper
-
Message 13
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| Subject: | Aerocarb for sale |
SSd2ZSBnb3QgYW4gQWVyb2NhcmIgZm9yIHNhbGUgb24gRWJheSByaWdodCBub3cuICBJdCdzIHRo
ZSAzMm1tIHZlcnNpb24uICBDYW4gYmUgdXNlZCBvbiBhbnkgNjUtMTE1aHAgZW5naW5lLiAgaWYg
YW55b25lIGlzIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaGVyZSdzIHRoZSBsaW5rDQoNCmh0dHA6Ly9jZ2kuZWJheS5j
b20vZWJheW1vdG9ycy93cy9lQmF5SVNBUEkuZGxsP1ZpZXdJdGVtJml0ZW09MjQ2Nzg3OTY5Mg0K
DQoNCkRKIFZlZ2gNCk43NERWDQpNZXNhLCBBWg0Kd3d3LmltYWdlZHYuY29tL2FpcmNhbXBlcg0K
DQpf
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Beginning to Build - Questions |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Bruce __" <bruce___@hotmail.com>
DJ and Carl,
Thanks for the response.
Bruce
do not archive
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