---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/25/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:14 AM - Re: Web spar (Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)) 2. 05:05 AM - carrying extra fuel (Michael D Cuy) 3. 05:30 AM - Re: Piet project for sale on ebay. (Larry Ragan) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: aux fuel tanks (At7000ft@aol.com) 5. 07:56 AM - Re: aux fuel tanks (DJ Vegh) 6. 10:49 AM - Web spar Piet wings (Doc Mosher) 7. 12:54 PM - Re: Piet project for sale on ebay. (Jim Markle) 8. 01:02 PM - oops... Piet project for sale on ebay. (Jim Markle) 9. 01:08 PM - Doc Mosher (Michael D Cuy) 10. 07:56 PM - Re: Web spar (Rcaprd@aol.com) 11. 08:02 PM - Re: aux fuel tanks (Rcaprd@aol.com) 12. 10:37 PM - Re: aux fuel tanks (Gary Gower) 13. 11:11 PM - Re: aux fuel tanks (BARNSTMR@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:41 AM PST US From: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Web spar --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alexander Birca (MD/RMD)" Dick, Have a look to this site: http://www.solent-strut.co.uk They are building Jim Wills modification of wing which is exactly what you need. PFA approved design. BR, Alex -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Carden Subject: Pietenpol-List: Web spar --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden --> Pieters: I'm thinking about making my wing spars from plywood with cap strips. Does anyone know of a PROVEN design . . . that is one that has been built and is actually flying? I'd appreciate any referrals. Many thanks, Dick Carden This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you. E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any consequences thereof. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:13 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: carrying extra fuel --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy DJ-- would carrying an extra 5 gallons of fuel strapped in the front seat help you out or do you want access to the fuel in flight ? (I'd imagine) I think the sight of those tanks on a Piet would be a turn off (for me anyway) and what do you do with them once you get to a fly-in ? I guess tho one thing I've found is that once you get somewhere if you are camping out the tent holds and protects everything you've brought with you and the tanks could be put in there. (though I wouldn't want that fuel smell in my tent all night) Any chance to put even a few gallons in say one of your wing rib bays ?? Near the root ?? A nice pair of alum. tanks between the front and rear spars would fit nicely and I'll bet would give you at least an extra 10 gallons. Now would be the time to do that with your new set of wings ! Would be really nice to have those wing tanks---and hidden, and unique, and totally functional without all those brackets and fuel lines, fuel pump creating more drag. Just some thoughts with coffee...... Mike C. in rain, but warm Ohio ! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:13 AM PST US From: "Larry Ragan" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet project for sale on ebay. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Larry Ragan" Jim, Is the Piet project an extended fuse? Plans come with it? Thanks Larry Ragan Jacksonville, Fl. lragan@hotmail.com All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:21 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks Why not put another tank in the wing center section? I've got a Corvair for power and it's supposed to burn about 5-6gph. My fuse tank can be no larger than about 13 gal. (limited to weight/CG issues not physical size) That gives me 2 hrs of flight at best..... cruising at 80mph thats only 160 mile range. Fuel stops out here in the desert are far and few between. For the longer trips to fly-ins it'd be nice to have an extra 10 gallons or so. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:04 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" I may do that... it would take some extensive modification of the center section as I have built it already. Maybe I could at least put a 4 gallon tank in there without changing it. I'll measure it out and do the math tonight. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks Why not put another tank in the wing center section? I've got a Corvair for power and it's supposed to burn about 5-6gph. My fuse tank can be no larger than about 13 gal. (limited to weight/CG issues not physical size) That gives me 2 hrs of flight at best..... cruising at 80mph thats only 160 mile range. Fuel stops out here in the desert are far and few between. For the longer trips to fly-ins it'd be nice to have an extra 10 gallons or so. This email has been scanned for known viruses and made safe for viewing by Half Price Hosting, a leading email and web hosting provider. For more information on an anti-virus email solution, visit . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:41 AM PST US From: Doc Mosher Subject: Pietenpol-List: Web spar Piet wings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Doc Mosher Richard - When the Pietenpol was "discovered" by the Brits, it was acknowledged as a great airplane for its purpose. However, the availability and the high cost of spruce for the wings was a problem for builders. A fine gentleman by the name of Jim Wills, who lives in East London, with the cooperation of the Pietenpol family, designed and built a set of wings using just the kind of web spar you are describing. Rather than an I beam, his spar is, as Peter describes, really a C section. The PFA in the UK approved the redesign, and most of the Piets there use Jim's web spar. Peter, you are in Australia, and Jim will sell you a set of plans. However, I live in North America, and Jim is reluctant to sell me a set of his webspar plans. Wichita, the home of many aviation liability lawsuits, is in North America, and Jim does not want to get burned. Try as I have, I have not convinced Jim that in the USA the amateur builder of the airplane is responsible for its airworthiness, not the designer. Fortunately for me, one night I had a revelatory experience (Mike Cuy knows I have these at times), and on awakening, I was able to draw up sketches (for my personal use only) of just such a wing plan. If you need a copy of my sketches, let me know. The PFA approved plans for the Jim Wills style of Piet produces a stronger, lighter, and lower cost wing. The wing is a three-piece wing, with an emphasis on easy disassembly for storage during winter. In fact, Jim has built in a clever set of aileron system arms that butt against each other upon attachment of the wings to the center section and thus eliminate having to disconnect and reconnect the aileron cable control system. Doc Mosher Oshkosh USA ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:11 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet project for sale on ebay. DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:25 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: oops... Pietenpol-List: Piet project for sale on ebay. DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:37 PM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Doc Mosher --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Doc DOES have these revelatory experiences from time to time........I just can't convince him to have the one I want him to have ! Do not archive Mike C. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Web spar --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/04 2:24:43 PM Central Standard Time, flywrite@erols.com writes: << I'm thinking about making my wing spars from plywood with cap strips. >> Richard, Why are you considering this mod ? Chuck Gantzer ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:17 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/04 10:23:10 PM Central Standard Time, djv@imagedv.com writes: << I've got a Corvair for power and it's supposed to burn about 5-6gph. My fuse tank can be no larger than about 13 gal. (limited to weight/CG issues not physical size) >> DJ, I think the center section is the best place to put your extra fuel. Simple reliable gravity feed, on the CG, replentish the cowl tank, no pumps, no fuel quantity indicator needed. Chuck Gantzer ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:32 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower DJ, Maybe a coment a few posts ago about safety is right, about the tanks in the center section and fuse... Yes, maybe to much gasoline in the pilot/pasenger area in case of an emergency landing. Using two wing tanks, single conection, gravity fed to the fuse tank by a single 90 fuel valve. use the fuse tank indicator for fuel transfer. Also is safer, in an emergency over "unfriendly" landscape, just point the fuselage betwen two trees and the fuel tanks are left in the back... Knock wood, but is better to spare the plane for saving the life. Remember: Is very dificult and needs a lot of brains to design things the simpler way... Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/24/04 10:23:10 PM Central Standard Time, > djv@imagedv.com > writes: > > << I've got a Corvair for power and it's supposed to burn about > 5-6gph. My > fuse tank can be no larger than about 13 gal. (limited to weight/CG > issues > not physical size) >> > > DJ, > I think the center section is the best place to put your extra fuel. > Simple > reliable gravity feed, on the CG, replentish the cowl tank, no pumps, > no fuel > quantity indicator needed. > > Chuck Gantzer > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:07 PM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aux fuel tanks There's two aspects of safety. 1) Airworthiness 2) Crashworthiness If you optimize the design for #1, then you minimize the probability of #2 being a factor. Chuck's point is that the simple gravity flow system is more airworthy than the other design, i.e. the liklihood of engine failure due to fuel starvation is minimal. The more complicated system with fuel pumps, etc increases the liklihood of fuel starvation, thus decreasing the airworthiness. Yeah, it is more crash worthy... but do we consider that safe? And who really wants to go do that test? I think that if more folks designed from the "airworthiness" point of view, there would be far fewer homebuilt airplane accidents. Thats my $ .02. Terry B