Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Sun 05/02/04


Total Messages Posted: 7



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 11:30 AM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (hjarrett)
     2. 12:02 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (walt evans)
     3. 02:18 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (hjarrett)
     4. 04:50 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (walt evans)
     5. 05:07 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (hjarrett)
     6. 08:12 PM - PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT (Les Schubert)
     7. 10:22 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (Clif Dawson)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 11:30:18 AM PST US
    From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    Sounds like you are pretty close on CG if you located it based on the wing chord. I get worried about the guys that say "the plans say the CG is XX inches aft of the firewall and that's where mine is. Of course I moved the wing forward yy inches and shifted the landing gear ZZ inches but dang it! The CG is just where the plans say, XX inches aft of the firewall!" Many builders don't understand the wing is the thing. You don't want to think of it as moving the wing over the fuselage, think of it as moving everything else relative to the wing. You have to locate the wheel and CG locations relative to the WING. Glad you got it right. I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great!


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:02:36 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great!


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:18:42 PM PST US
    From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    Use water, closer to the weight of a body and MUCH easier to get out of the front pit by running a drain line. I can see it now, "Hey Walt, you musta scared that lady in your plane pretty bad. She hasn't moved for a half hour except to slowly slump in the seat and she is STILL wetting the ramp!" Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great!


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:50:02 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    Hank, Great idea!!! : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Use water, closer to the weight of a body and MUCH easier to get out of the front pit by running a drain line. I can see it now, "Hey Walt, you musta scared that lady in your plane pretty bad. She hasn't moved for a half hour except to slowly slump in the seat and she is STILL wetting the ramp!" Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great!


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:07:36 PM PST US
    From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    Get a "blow-up" doll that is fuel proof and the possibilities boggle the mind! "MAN!!! Walt must have that sucker REALLY LEANED! He's had her up there for HOURS!" OR... Want to try for an Atlantic crossing? It would sure take a lot out of your "passenger". Hank (Sick mind here)J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, Great idea!!! : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Use water, closer to the weight of a body and MUCH easier to get out of the front pit by running a drain line. I can see it now, "Hey Walt, you musta scared that lady in your plane pretty bad. She hasn't moved for a half hour except to slowly slump in the seat and she is STILL wetting the ramp!" Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great!


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:12:16 PM PST US
    From: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net>
    Subject: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert <leskarin@telus.net> Hi fmetcalfe Actually in Canada where I live the ultralight limitation is 1200# max gross and to fly that I don't need a annual medical. Les


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:22:48 PM PST US
    From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger
    <010401c42f96$f6183d00$f6ddf6ce@hjarrett> <010801c42f99$1c4e1ec0$0301a8c0@Domain> <001b01c42fb6$fa207140$2cc5fea9@home> Well, you're in good company Walt. Didn't the Wrights use negative dihedral? :-) :-) Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:00 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Chris, In answer to both questions,,,I built with zero dihedral, which has it's drawbacks. Actually after carefully rigging the wing with all it's struts, didn't take into account the "tightening everything" factor. So after covering and final assy and cable tightening, I wound up with about 1/4" negative dihedral. Oh well. BUT,,,If I have the right fuel in the nose tank, in still air, I can fly hands off for miles.




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