---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/03/04: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:10 AM - Piet ride (Michael D Cuy) 2. 07:16 AM - Re: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT (Fmetcalfe) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (Fmetcalfe) 4. 12:16 PM - Re: Piet ride (walt evans) 5. 12:21 PM - Re: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger (walt evans) 6. 03:58 PM - Re: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT (Graham Hansen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:06 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet ride <010401c42f96$f6183d00$f6ddf6ce@hjarrett> <002d01c42fba$fdfff890$2cc5fea9@home> <001501c43074$00686e00$daddf6ce@hjarrett> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Walt-- You are right on about the Piet flying better with another on board. When I'm solo on a windy/turbulent day I can fly formation with a Cub or Champ and those guys look like they are enjoying the ride with no problems. In the mean time I'm bouncing away, all over the place. You try to explain why you aren't flying on certain days and the other guys poo-poo it.......but they are not the ones who have to endure the rough ride. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:02 AM PST US From: "Fmetcalfe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Fmetcalfe" Yes I know that there are several countries that have been way ahead of the US in rules and regs in this area. The new sport pilot will come in real close to what you guys have had for a long time. Our 103 Rules for ultralight will stay the same, No license or medical required but the plane has to be under 254 lbs, one seat and under 5 gal of fuel. We could operate a two seat aircraft under 490 lbs for training only with a FAA exemption. There are alot of people waiting for sport. this will stop the need for medical and put alot of guys back in the air. Thanks for the update ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schubert" Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Les Schubert > > Hi fmetcalfe > Actually in Canada where I live the ultralight limitation is 1200# max > gross and to fly that I don't need a annual medical. > Les > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:26 AM PST US From: "Fmetcalfe" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger I like it, Bring your fuel line off at the ankles and that gives to feet for sump, when you get where your going and she empty you'll have some thing to sleep on, Cool Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Get a "blow-up" doll that is fuel proof and the possibilities boggle the mind! "MAN!!! Walt must have that sucker REALLY LEANED! He's had her up there for HOURS!" OR... Want to try for an Atlantic crossing? It would sure take a lot out of your "passenger". Hank (Sick mind here)J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, Great idea!!! : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Use water, closer to the weight of a body and MUCH easier to get out of the front pit by running a drain line. I can see it now, "Hey Walt, you musta scared that lady in your plane pretty bad. She hasn't moved for a half hour except to slowly slump in the seat and she is STILL wetting the ramp!" Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:51 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet ride --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Mike, Thanks,,,That makes me feel better! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael D Cuy" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet ride > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy > > Walt-- You are right on about the Piet flying better with another on > board. When I'm solo on a windy/turbulent day I can fly formation with a > Cub or Champ and those guys look like they are enjoying the ride with no > problems. In the mean time I'm bouncing away, all over the place. You > try to explain why you aren't flying on certain days and the other guys > poo-poo it.......but they are not the ones who have to endure the rough > ride. > > Mike C. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:17 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger And something to sleep WITH! : () Just like the emergency copilot in "Airplane" walt evans NX140DL do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Fmetcalfe To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger I like it, Bring your fuel line off at the ankles and that gives to feet for sump, when you get where your going and she empty you'll have some thing to sleep on, Cool Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Get a "blow-up" doll that is fuel proof and the possibilities boggle the mind! "MAN!!! Walt must have that sucker REALLY LEANED! He's had her up there for HOURS!" OR... Want to try for an Atlantic crossing? It would sure take a lot out of your "passenger". Hank (Sick mind here)J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, Great idea!!! : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Use water, closer to the weight of a body and MUCH easier to get out of the front pit by running a drain line. I can see it now, "Hey Walt, you musta scared that lady in your plane pretty bad. She hasn't moved for a half hour except to slowly slump in the seat and she is STILL wetting the ramp!" Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, No, the pitch sensitivity doesn't seem to change. I said in my original post that the yaw was affected. But how you put it in the below post best describes it,,,it BOUNCES more when it's lighter. It just plain "squirrellier" when light. Might have to fly with one of those inflatable "date" dolls, filled with sand : ) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger >>>> I still wonder about the change in pitch sensitivity at lower weight though. It should BOUNCE more in rough air but the elevator sensitivity shouldn't change. I need to go look at the factors that go into the pitch stability derivatives (never did like dynamic stability analysis). Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Hank, After moving the wing back, my CG does fall in the last inch of the required envelope, but they are accurate numbers. Guess with light wing loading, this is the nature of the beast ( like Chris brought up). The specs for CG, from Bernard are for dimensions on the wing, so in theory, where ever you put the wing, if the CG is right on the wing,,,the CG is right on the wing. And as far as I know,,,the front seat is pretty much at CG. So I think the issue is more weight than CG? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger What you are describing is typical behavior in an aft CG condition. Have you done a weight and balance and checked where on the wing chord the CG falls? All the talk on the group about how many inches aft of the firewall the CG should be and moving the wing fore and aft makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FIREWALL AND THE CG!!!!! THE CG MUST BE IN THE CORRECT POSITION ON THE WING! Sorry to yell but the guys measuring from the other positions and then don't have the wing in the original locations are playing with fire. I know this is a touchy topic on the group but I don't want to hear about one of you getting into a spin and not being able to recover because your CG was aft of limit on the wing but the "correct" distance aft of the zero datum, the firewall or the back seam of your aunt Gerties bloomers. None of them matter if the CG is aft on the wing. Hank (Let the flames begin) J ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: piet discussion Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Piet flies so much better with a passenger Don't know if you guys feel this way too or not , but my Piet flies so much better with a passenger in the turbulent midday . It's a subtle thing, and not just the extra weight, but the yaw control greatly improves. With just me , it is stomach churning, and the plane seems to pivot around me. With someone in the front, the plane pivots further forward. And is back to climbing like a standard Cub. Funny, it's something I wouldn't have imagined. Anyone else see this? Or is this a known in the high time Piet guys? Guess thats one of the drawbacks to building light. At 595# empty, I'm at the light end of the spectrum. If I had a fatter one maybe wouldn't see this. Also, thanks to all who responded over the winter to my problems with "stall" landings. Put all the advice into play, and found my weakness. walt evans NX140DL Last night was the "Tribute to Harry Chapin" concert in my town,,,,,,Great! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:02 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PIET AS A ULTRALIGHT --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" Les and Group, While it is true that anything with a maximum weight of 1200 lbs, or less, and a power-off stalling/landing speed of 45 mph, or less, can qualify as an ultralight aircraft in Canada, and can be flown with an Ultralight Pilot Permit, there are some things that deserve comment: 1. The self-declared medical document contains a comprehensive list of medical conditions and comparitively few individuals can truthfully certify that they have never suffered from any of them--particularly after they get older. A false declaration can result in a severe penalty, so beware! A UPP is valid for 5 years unless, of course, you suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions during that period. (There is no real assurance that medical records remain confidential nowadays.) 2. The Ultralight Pilot Permit does not permit the carriage of passengers, unless they, too, are licensed pilots holding the minimum of an UPP. 3. If your aircraft is classified as a Basic Ultralight (BULA), you must wear a "hard" helmet (not a bad idea). But you are free from some other equipment requirements pertaining to amateur-built and certified aircraft categories (ELTs, aircraft checklists, handheld fire extinguishers, aircraft first aid kit, etc.). These items are therefore optional, but desirable. On the surface these seem to be reasonable requirements, and they are with the exception of the medical one. As long as one is lucky enough to be free from the listed medical conditions and can truthfully declare that this is the case, all is well. But if one develops a medical problem, the Category 4 Medical will no longer suffice and the individual will have to pass a Category 3 medical done by an aviation medical examiner, and it doesn't seem possible to revert to the Category 4 medical status after this happens. So the hapless individual now has to pass a medical that would qualify him/her for a higher licence, even though only a UPP is desired/needed! For about six years, I operated with a Recreational Pilot Permit until I developed a medical problem listed in the self-declared section, and had to "jump through hoops" and pass a Category 3 medical, which I managed to do. So now I have my Private Pilot Licence back because there is absolutely no point in bothering with the Recreational Pilot Permit (or a UPP, for that matter) because the medical requirement "bar" has been raised. And now I have to renew my PPL every year just to fly my Pietenpol which qualifies as an "ultralight" in Canada. Basically, there is no difference in the medical requirements between a Cat. 3 and Cat. 4 excepting the self-declaration thing, and this compromises the feasibility of the Cat. 4 medical, the RPP and the UPP in this country. With the exception of the rather low weight (254 lbs) of the ultralight airplane in the USA, they are on the right track when no pilot licence or U/L aircraft registration is required to operate these machines. Hopefully, the Sport Pilot ticket will expand this freedom--and I hope it doesn't get screwed-up the way our RPP and UPP concept was. In this land, it always seems to be a case of "one step forward and two back"! However, I guess "The grass always looks greener over the other guy's cesspool." Having been honestly involved in aviation for a long time (since 1948), I don't like to see a breeding ground for outlaw pilots, but it can happen because of blind over-regulation. Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)