Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:51 AM - cutting carbon fiber layups (Michael D Cuy)
2. 04:51 PM - Re: Piet ride (hjarrett)
3. 06:50 PM - T-88 (Jake Nichols)
4. 07:03 PM - Re: cutting carbon fiber layups (Rcaprd@aol.com)
5. 07:23 PM - Re: T-88 (Jack Phillips)
6. 07:38 PM - Re: Piet ride (Rcaprd@aol.com)
7. 07:45 PM - Re: T-88 (Richard Navratil)
8. 10:03 PM - Re: T-88 (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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Subject: | cutting carbon fiber layups |
<000c01c42f88$2c514d80$2cc5fea9@home>
<010401c42f96$f6183d00$f6ddf6ce@hjarrett>
<002d01c42fba$fdfff890$2cc5fea9@home>
<001501c43074$00686e00$daddf6ce@hjarrett>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Dear Pieters, as Corky says.......do any of you guys know how difficult (or
easy) it is to cut say a hole, rectangle, etc. into
a piece of carbon fiber ? To drill ? This is all layed up and
cured. It's under a 1/8" thick, more like a fat 1/16".
thanks for helping a guy who tests materials all week on a
materials-related question !
Mike C.
Message 2
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
The reason you bounce when they don't is the slope of the lift curve. The
steeper the slope the harder the bounce. Of course there is no reason to
test the Piet airfoil since there is nothing to be learned about Pietenpols
and no one should ever consider making any changes to an already "perfect"
design.
Hank (Running for cover) J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet ride
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> Walt-- You are right on about the Piet flying better with another on
> board. When I'm solo on a windy/turbulent day I can fly formation with a
> Cub or Champ and those guys look like they are enjoying the ride with no
> problems. In the mean time I'm bouncing away, all over the place. You
> try to explain why you aren't flying on certain days and the other guys
> poo-poo it.......but they are not the ones who have to endure the rough
> ride.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 3
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I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about T-88.
First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in the
correct ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than honey. I
was using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate some stock
together and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer. The temp was
about 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.
To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another and
make sure they were the same length and volume.
The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts. During
the lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from between the
individual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still slightly tacky. When
I used my block plane to begin rounding the leading edge, the epoxy was solid
and did not cut like it had any elasticity in it. In other words it was not
soft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface. Is this normal or is this
a sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an incorrect mixture, any idea of
which part had too great of a volume?
If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever they
call themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a starter
kit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and materials. It
comes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad for $30. I thought
this would be a good way to get my feet wet before jumping in on a Piet.
James Nichols
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: cutting carbon fiber layups |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 5/5/04 1:52:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes:
<< Dear Pieters, as Corky says.......do any of you guys know how difficult
(or
easy) it is to cut say a hole, rectangle, etc. into
a piece of carbon fiber ? To drill ? This is all layed up and
cured. It's under a 1/8" thick, more like a fat 1/16". >>
Mike,
I have drilled, and cut, a lot of carbon fiber at work. The Hawker Horizon
has a carbon fiber fuselage, and stabilizers. To drill, we use 'com cut' bits
(composite cut). They have a small notch at the outer cutting edge of the
bit. A regular bit seems to walk, even when you start with a #40 pilot hole.
The relief of the bit is a little different, too. A regular bit only lasts
about 6 or 7 holes, then it needs re-sharpened. I suggest you step drill it, from
#40 bit. Carbon fiber is some Hard stuff !! Our hole saws don't have the
normal teeth, but instead are diamond tipped, so they don't wear out so quick.
The sabre saw blades are diamond tipped, too. Be very careful about the
dust. The fibers it makes are so fine, that they easily get in the pores of your
skin, or lungs. You could use normal cutting tools, if you only have one or
two holes to do, but be careful not to walk the bit. If you're building a
Carbon Fiber Pietenpol, I'm never going to speak to you again !!
Chuck G.
Message 5
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Sounds like your T-88 worked about like mine. It is pretty thick, but will
flow quite a bit in the 12 hours or so it takes to cure. it is pretty good
glue, and does not make the mess that Resorcinol does, but I still prefer
resorcinol for structural joints. I used T-88 in places where I didn't have
an exact fit, or where the squeezed out glue would show, such as in the
cockpit area.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jake Nichols
Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88
I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about
T-88. First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in
the correct ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than
honey. I was using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate
some stock together and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer.
The temp was about 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.
To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another
and make sure they were the same length and volume.
The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts.
During the lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from
between the individual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still
slightly tacky. When I used my block plane to begin rounding the leading
edge, the epoxy was solid and did not cut like it had any elasticity in it.
In other words it was not soft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface.
Is this normal or is this a sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an
incorrect mixture, any idea of which part had too great of a volume?
If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever
they call themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a
starter kit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and
materials. It comes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad
for $30. I thought this would be a good way to get my feet wet before
jumping in on a Piet.
James Nichols
Message 6
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 5/5/04 6:52:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
hjarrett@hroads.net writes:
<< The reason you bounce when they don't is the slope of the lift curve. The
steeper the slope the harder the bounce. >>
Hank,
Actually, I kind of like the bounce. Keeps me alert, and being at one with
the wing, she lets me know about every little anomoliy in the wind, and
thermals. I can predict the ride up ahead, by the color of the field.
Chuck G.
Message 7
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If you want to make it mix and spread easier, try putting it in the microwave for
10 sec or so. Abit of heat makes it quite thin. It will also reduce your
pot life.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Nichols
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88
I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about
T-88. First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in the
correct ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than honey.
I was using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate some stock
together and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer. The temp was
about 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.
To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another and
make sure they were the same length and volume.
The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts. During
the lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from between the
individual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still slightly tacky.
When I used my block plane to begin rounding the leading edge, the epoxy was solid
and did not cut like it had any elasticity in it. In other words it was
not soft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface. Is this normal or is this
a sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an incorrect mixture, any idea of
which part had too great of a volume?
If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever they
call themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a starter
kit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and materials.
It comes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad for $30. I thought
this would be a good way to get my feet wet before jumping in on a Piet.
James Nichols
Message 8
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<002b01c43313$dba6e680$0600a8c0@laptop>
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.asp?SID=&page=20009&category=2%2C2070%2C33135&ccurrency=1
The mixing cups shown here are what I use. One thing is that the graduations are
on
the inside so they disappear in the liquid. I place a strip of masking tape up
the side
and mark off the level for each component and then fill both in the same cup till
the
SURFACE level of each matches it's line. Popsicle sticks are used for mixing and
spreading. I sand the end off at an angle with the disc sander then sand the face
at
a long shallow angle until the end is the thickness of fine cardboard.
Once you have spread glue on both faces and pressed them together, squeezing
out SOME of the glue, enough to know that the two glue surfaces have joined but
you still have a film close to the thickness of a piece of paper, then use the
fine,
angled stick to scrape up the squeeze-out and use that in the next joint. You do
not want to clamp this stuff tight! You have to have that film. I bought some 1
and
2 lb pyramid shaped fish weights which I sit on the joint if it is flat as in rib
or
fuselage side building. Rib gussets may "walk" a bit so go back and check after
doing all on a rib and reposition as necessary. It won't be much, if any. You can
use tiny brads or staples if you want. Just don't squeeze out too much glue.
Glue 3 or 4 test pieces from each batch with the leftovers. When they have cured,
break two in shear and examine the faces to see if the wood sheared. If you see
glue with only some wood attached you have a problem. I use 3" long 1" X 1" cutoffs
for this. Put glue on 1" of each and press together with 2" sticking out each
end,
one to go in the vice, the other to pull sideways with large pliers until the joint
separates. Save and label the other two.
Oh, what are you mixing on? Not cardboard or wood I hope.
If the link above doesn't work try this one and put 56z82.02 in the left hand
"item number" box
www.leevalley.com
Clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
If you want to make it mix and spread easier, try putting it in the microwave
for 10 sec or so. Abit of heat makes it quite thin. It will also reduce your
pot life.
Dick
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:51 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88
I am starting my practice project and was wondering a couple of things about
T-88. First of all, what is the viscosity of the epoxy after it is mixed in the
correct ratio. I was using some and it appeared to be thicker than honey.
I was using a butter knife to spread it in a thin layer to laminate some stock
together and it took a lot of force to spread into a thin layer. The temp was
about 60 F so perhaps the cold had something to do with this.
To mix in a 50/50 ratio I would lay beads of the epoxy next to one another
and make sure they were the same length and volume.
The other question has to do with quality control after joining the parts.
During the lamination process, small amounts of the epoxy seeped from between
the individual sticks. After 24 hours these seeps were still slightly tacky.
When I used my block plane to begin rounding the leading edge, the epoxy was
solid and did not cut like it had any elasticity in it. In other words it was
not soft, just slightly sticky on the exposed surface. Is this normal or is
this a sign of an incorrect mixture? If it is an incorrect mixture, any idea
of which part had too great of a volume?
If you are wondering about my little project, it is a TEAM/ISON/what ever they
call themselves now MiniMax vertical stabilizer. They sell this as a starter
kit to allow you to see their plans, constuction techniques and materials.
It comes with the wood, T-88, plans and some hardware. Not bad for $30. I
thought this would be a good way to get my feet wet before jumping in on a Piet.
James Nichols
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