Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 05/07/04


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:07 AM - T-88 (Oscar Zuniga)
     2. 08:41 AM - Boradhead accomodations (Douwe Blumberg)
     3. 09:16 AM - Official minutes of unofficial meeting (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
     4. 10:07 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (bike.mike)
     5. 10:20 AM - Differance in dimensions between dated plans (Alex Sloan)
     6. 10:40 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Jim Markle)
     7. 11:23 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Michael D Cuy)
     8. 11:44 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Jim Markle)
     9. 12:20 PM - Costs of Fabric Covering (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
    10. 12:49 PM - Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans (walt evans)
    11. 01:44 PM - Re: Costs of Fabric Covering (walt evans)
    12. 02:34 PM - Re: T-88 ()
    13. 05:10 PM - Re: T-88 (Carbarvo@aol.com)
    14. 06:15 PM - Re: T-88 (Laurits Larsen)
    15. 07:47 PM - Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans (Alex Sloan)
    16. 07:48 PM - Re: T-88  (Graham Hansen)
    17. 07:53 PM - Re: T-88 (Bill Budgell)
    18.  PM - stick it in a cute blonde tonight! 15 (jan)
    19. 10:53 PM - large lot of Corvairs for sale in IL (DJ Vegh)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:07:23 AM PST US
    From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: T-88
    pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> Well, here's a subject I can express an opinion on since my "Flying Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled with T-88 so I have some experience with it. Living in Oregon when I did all the wood construction, my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or 60's and I never had a problem with the T-88 developing full strength and solidifying. As a matter of fact, it was a relief to me to read that this is one of the benefits of T-88 (ability to use effectively at lower temperatures). The first time I mixed some up I used hypodermics to accurately measure quantities, but that was the only time. From then on I mixed it by eye and again, never had any problems with joints developing full strength. The ratio is very important, but not ultra-critical. My recommendations go along with the others already mentioned: don't clamp too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out to ensure a full joint, make sure your joints are held firmly in place so things don't creep or slide during cure, and when you mix the two parts you should have something the consistency of honey that you spread onto the surfaces to be glued. I use plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain wood tongue depressors to mix my epoxy. You can pay more for these by ordering them from an aircraft supply, but what for? After buying my first lot from one of the suppliers and then seeing the very same thing in my local Costco store for 30% less cost, I never went back. I've had to "unglue" or remove things that were glued and cured, and I can say with confidence that (with Douglas fir, anyway) my glue joints were stronger than the wood fibers they were bonded to. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:41:18 AM PST US
    From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Boradhead accomodations
    pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Hi guys, Any suggestions about where to stay at Broadhead? Was hoping there'd be a list in the last newsletter, but no. Douwe


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:16:51 AM PST US
    From: BARNSTMR@aol.com
    pietenpol-list@matronics.com
    Subject: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
    NOTICE: Download of attached photo is optional. I apologize in advance if anyone is inconvenienced by excessive file size. ********************************** Minutes of the 1st semi-periodic loosely sporadic un-official meeting of the North Texas Pietenpol Association (NTPA). Date Tues May 4, 2004 1. Attendance: 6 - See picture attached. 2. 1st item of business: Motion was made to go eat. All were in favor for flavor. 3. Motion was made to eat Dessert. Motion passed 5 - 1 4. Meeting was temporarily interrupted due to conversation with Purple Cow waiter who may indeed be a potential Piet builder and future NTPA convert. Appointed Jim Markle for follow up discussion with waiter on future date. 5. Final order of business: Splitting up the tab with NTPA funds. Appointed Andi Davis as unofficial NTPA treasurer. 6. Meeting adjourned for tour of J.Markle's manufacturing/ production facility and Pietenpol progress. All agreed the best part about building a Pietenpol is the friends made along the way. Thanks to Andi, Max, Julie, and Jim for the wonderful hospitality shown to Leann and myself. Also, thanks to Andi's parents for looking after the kids. Hope we didn't keep Andi out too late! Let us know when the next meeting will be. We had a great time. Terry B DO NOT ARCHIVE


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:07:18 AM PST US
    From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net> The photo of the airplane behind the meeting shows built-up spars of plywood web with apparently fir or spruce caps. Have these been described to the list and does their design have some sort of an operational history? ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com> <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:20:52 AM PST US
    From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
    pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Fellow Pietenpol Builders, I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building the extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans the dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance? I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons. Hoping to hear from someone. Alex Sloan


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:40:12 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com> Wow, such attention to detail.....well, that spar design (I built it....) has been used by a few Pietenpol builders. There are a lot of detailed pictures, etc in my log on mykitplane.com. Basically, it's the same size dimensionally as the routed 1" spar built by Pietenpol, except that my web is not quite 1/2" thick. The built out top and bottom (where the REAL loads are concentrated) are both 1" square after the build out. I used doug fir/T88 but would probably use spruce/T88 next time.... Not sure about what would qualify as an "operational history" except to say that I personally know of at least one "single piece" wing Air Camper that is flying today with such a design. The calculations will likely show that building out the top and bottom to 1" square would only require a 3/16" web (with vertical stiffeners at each rib). On paper...... I'm not saying to do it that way, just that on paper it would most likely handle the loads. I did some destructive tests and this thing is strong. (I'm using terms like "most likely" and "will likely show" since all this is presented as just one possible way of building a Pietenpol Air Camper spar. I obviously believe in the design MUCH more that that terminology might indicate....) Hope this answers your question (at least to some degree)..... Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net> > > The photo of the airplane behind the meeting shows built-up spars of plywood > web with apparently fir or spruce caps. Have these been described to the > list and does their design have some sort of an operational history? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com> > To: <jim_markle@mindspring.com>; <Andimaxd@aol.com>; <stitchin29@aol.com>; > <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:13 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:23:01 AM PST US
    From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
    Subject: Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Nice photo, Terry and thank you for the update on the NTPA meeting. Jim-- I noticed that your front wing strut attach fittings are blue but the rear ones are white. I sure would like you to explain this. I can't seem to find that on the plans anywhere. Also, nice looking barstool and floor fan behind you all. Mike C.


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:44:42 AM PST US
    From: Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com> WAY to much attention to detail!!!! Now I'm glad I picked up my old empty beer cans and dirty socks and other stuff before anyone showed up!!! I'm doing scallops in Ford Blue (against sort of a beige/cream color background) on the LE of the wing.....and when I layed them out, one of the scallops goes back into the front strut fitting area.....so I didn't want a beige strut fitting sticking down out of blue fabric..... Interesting that several people have noticed and commented (ok, harrassed me) about it..... I started on the wood for the landing gear last night and finished the pattern for the front piece...wow, what a project! Cut a little, mark it again, sand it, cut some more, mark again, back to the sander again, etc etc.... Thank goodness I've seen a lot of good ideas for how to do this here on the list.....compound angles are SUCH fun! Jim -----Original Message----- From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> Nice photo, Terry and thank you for the update on the NTPA meeting. Jim-- I noticed that your front wing strut attach fittings are blue but the rear ones are white. I sure would like you to explain this. I can't seem to find that on the plans anywhere. Also, nice looking barstool and floor fan behind you all. Mike C.


    Message 9


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    Time: 12:20:02 PM PST US
    From: BARNSTMR@aol.com
    Subject: Costs of Fabric Covering
    OK...I am going to throw this out there. Please hold the wolves back from attacking me for beating a dead horse. I am attaching a picture of a very nice little airplane. It was built by Hank Stynes in Texas. On Tuesday, Max Davis met me and my wife in Grandview TX. We drove out to Hanks place and had a nice visit looking over his nice Piet. Since Max and I are both near ready for fabric, we got into a discussion about fabric finishing. Ol' Hank (his hangar sign actually reads O'FART's HANGAR) talked with us about his fabric job and relayed some of his difficulties. I was never really clear on what he had used on his Piet, but he was not happy with the finish. If he had it to do over again, he swears that he would use spar varnish for clear penetration coat on ceconite... Then mix varnish with silver powder for UV resistance. Then use house paint for color finishing. Now I have already purchased 2.7 oz. fabric for my fuselage and tail. I have been planning to go with the Poly Fiber process all the way through because I am familiar with it, because I am confident I can achieve a nice finish, because it is repairable and durable. But I understand that I am in for quite a bit of $$ by the time I am through. Does anyone have a TOTAL cost for the a complete Piet job with Poly-Fiber? I am all for finding cheaper alternatives. But I am a skeptic when it comes to departing from the tried-and-true methods. I have seen Bob Siebert's Latex paint and it is beautiful. But I have often wondered how it will look five years down the road. So I am writing this looking for some hard FACTS about the pros and cons of various finishes that have been done. I want to hear from people who have used Latex or other finishing products. I want to hear how good or bad it has weathered the elements over time...how easy or difficult it is to repair and blend. What about hangar rash, gasoline spills, patching, fading, etc... Somebody out there convince me that theres a cheaper and equal or better alternative to the STCd fabric finishing systems. Otherwise.... I am sticking with the PF process and my wallet will suffer the consequences. Max...I know you're lurking out there and am sure you are interested in this too.


    Message 10


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    Time: 12:49:29 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
    Alex, I just put on my thinking cap. What I did was , since the rear of the horz stab. (which is flat and is the surface for the elevator hinges) is even with the rear of the tail post, AND even with the rear of the vert. stab., Just lay the horz stab. on the fuse even at the rear, and mark the fwd edge of the stab. on the fuse. Then you can see what number is right. Think I left plenty of room (like 1") at end of stringers, and after completely building the whole shebang. I went back and added a block to bring the turtledeck nicely close to the stab. Keep in mind that the opening will close up from both sides after covering and painting !!! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Sloan To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans Fellow Pietenpol Builders, I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building the extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans the dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance? I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons. Hoping to hear from someone. Alex Sloan


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:44:10 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Costs of Fabric Covering
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net> I used the thin dacron (1.? oz) with Poly Fiber. Second project with Poly Fiber. Wouldn't use anything else. Got the dacron from AS&S ,,the economy stuff for just over $3.00 per running yard. Everyone I talk to , even the old timers tell me that ALL of the dacron comes off one loom. they take the certified stuff off and then make the uncertified stuff. And for the home builder, it's all the same. If you hold the uncertified stuff up to the light, you can see dark lines every once in a while. That's where they join threads. That's no good for certified. But you know darn well that when the Poly Fiber gets into it, it's not going anywhere. As far as the Poly top coats, I did mine right to the manual, and even at $70.00+ per gallon of the non reds, I did my Piet for lots less than $500.00 I couldn't see putting house paint on a project that I put my life into for years. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering > OK...I am going to throw this out there. Please hold the wolves back from attacking me for beating a dead horse. > > I am attaching a picture of a very nice little airplane. It was built by Hank Stynes in Texas. On Tuesday, Max Davis met me and my wife in Grandview TX. We drove out to Hanks place and had a nice visit looking over his nice Piet. Since Max and I are both near ready for fabric, we got into a discussion about fabric finishing. Ol' Hank (his hangar sign actually reads O'FART's HANGAR) talked with us about his fabric job and relayed some of his difficulties. I was never really clear on what he had used on his Piet, but he was not happy with the finish. If he had it to do over again, he swears that he would use spar varnish for clear penetration coat on ceconite... Then mix varnish with silver powder for UV resistance. Then use house paint for color finishing. > > Now I have already purchased 2.7 oz. fabric for my fuselage and tail. I have been planning to go with the Poly Fiber process all the way through because I am familiar with it, because I am confident I can achieve a nice finish, because it is repairable and durable. But I understand that I am in for quite a bit of $$ by the time I am through. Does anyone have a TOTAL cost for the a complete Piet job with Poly-Fiber? > > I am all for finding cheaper alternatives. But I am a skeptic when it comes to departing from the tried-and-true methods. I have seen Bob Siebert's Latex paint and it is beautiful. But I have often wondered how it will look five years down the road. So I am writing this looking for some hard FACTS about the pros and cons of various finishes that have been done. I want to hear from people who have used Latex or other finishing products. I want to hear how good or bad it has weathered the elements over time...how easy or difficult it is to repair and blend. What about hangar rash, gasoline spills, patching, fading, etc... > > Somebody out there convince me that theres a cheaper and equal or better alternative to the STCd fabric finishing systems. Otherwise.... I am sticking with the PF process and my wallet will suffer the consequences. > > Max...I know you're lurking out there and am sure you are interested in this too. >


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:34:06 PM PST US
    From: <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: T-88
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <gcardinal@mn.rr.com> One additional note.....do not use waxed Dixie cups. Any wax will degrade T-88's holding power. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88 > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> > > Well, here's a subject I can express an opinion on since my "Flying > Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled with T-88 so I have some > experience with it. Living in Oregon when I did all the wood construction, > my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or 60's and I never had a problem > with the T-88 developing full strength and solidifying. As a matter of > fact, it was a relief to me to read that this is one of the benefits of T-88 > (ability to use effectively at lower temperatures). The first time I mixed > some up I used hypodermics to accurately measure quantities, but that was > the only time. From then on I mixed it by eye and again, never had any > problems with joints developing full strength. The ratio is very important, > but not ultra-critical. > > My recommendations go along with the others already mentioned: don't clamp > too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out to ensure a full joint, make sure > your joints are held firmly in place so things don't creep or slide during > cure, and when you mix the two parts you should have something the > consistency of honey that you spread onto the surfaces to be glued. I use > plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain wood tongue depressors to mix my > epoxy. You can pay more for these by ordering them from an aircraft supply, > but what for? After buying my first lot from one of the suppliers and then > seeing the very same thing in my local Costco store for 30% less cost, I > never went back. > > I've had to "unglue" or remove things that were glued and cured, and I can > say with confidence that (with Douglas fir, anyway) my glue joints were > stronger than the wood fibers they were bonded to. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ============================= Forum - through the Contributions banner ads or any other Matronics Forums. > ============================= http://www.matronics.com/chat > ============================= pietenpol-list@matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/search http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list http://www.matronics.com/chat http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare http://www.matronics.com/pietenpol-list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ============================= > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 05:10:14 PM PST US
    From: Carbarvo@aol.com
    Subject: Re: T-88
    While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits and after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:15:15 PM PST US
    From: "Laurits Larsen" <pietlars@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: T-88
    Hi: I experienced the same thing and took the easy way out; just set the plastic bottle in the sun for an afternoon. The problems was solved. Currently welding an intake manifold for my 'A' for my new Solex 'Jeep' downdraft carburetor. Lou Larsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Carbarvo@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits and after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?


    Message 15


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    Time: 07:47:17 PM PST US
    From: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
    Walt, You have reiterated what I have planned. Still curious as to "why" it is presented as it is. Thanks. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans Alex, I just put on my thinking cap. What I did was , since the rear of the horz stab. (which is flat and is the surface for the elevator hinges) is even with the rear of the tail post, AND even with the rear of the vert. stab., Just lay the horz stab. on the fuse even at the rear, and mark the fwd edge of the stab. on the fuse. Then you can see what number is right. Think I left plenty of room (like 1") at end of stringers, and after completely building the whole shebang. I went back and added a block to bring the turtledeck nicely close to the stab. Keep in mind that the opening will close up from both sides after covering and painting !!! walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Sloan To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 1:17 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans Fellow Pietenpol Builders, I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building the extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans the dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance? I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons. Hoping to hear from someone. Alex Sloan


    Message 16


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    Time: 07:48:55 PM PST US
    From: "Graham Hansen" <grhans@cable-lynx.net>
    Subject: Re: T-88
    The "white" component of T-88 does tend to granulate over time, but this is easily corrected by placing the container in hot (not boiling) water until it liquifies once more. This doesn't seem to produce an adverse effect on its adhesive qualities, and it is a safe method. Hot air would also do the trick, but I have found hot water to be quite effective. Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)


    Message 17


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    Time: 07:53:37 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Budgell" <wbudgell@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: T-88
    yes -----Original Message----- From: Carbarvo@aol.com <Carbarvo@aol.com> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Date: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits and after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?


    Message 18


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    From: "jan" <lydiaxa@pobox.sk>
    Subject: t in a cute blonde tonight! 15


    Message 19


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    Time: 10:53:19 PM PST US
    From: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
    Subject: large lot of Corvairs for sale in IL
    --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>) I got this in an off-list email from former list member Robert Haines. It may be of some interest to some of you. ------------- DJ, I found the following ad in a local paper here in southern Illinois. Pass it along to the Peit and Corvair guys (I'm not on the lists anymore). 13-CORVAIRS, 2-VANS, 2-TRUCKS: 1-wagon, 8-2-4 doors, rough. $2,500 obo or trade for all. Wayne City IL (618)842-2057 Robert Haines Du Quoin, Illinois http://roberthaines.us




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