Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:07 AM - T-88 (Oscar Zuniga)
2. 08:41 AM - Boradhead accomodations (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 09:16 AM - Official minutes of unofficial meeting (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
4. 10:07 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (bike.mike)
5. 10:20 AM - Differance in dimensions between dated plans (Alex Sloan)
6. 10:40 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Jim Markle)
7. 11:23 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Michael D Cuy)
8. 11:44 AM - Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting (Jim Markle)
9. 12:20 PM - Costs of Fabric Covering (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
10. 12:49 PM - Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans (walt evans)
11. 01:44 PM - Re: Costs of Fabric Covering (walt evans)
12. 02:34 PM - Re: T-88 ()
13. 05:10 PM - Re: T-88 (Carbarvo@aol.com)
14. 06:15 PM - Re: T-88 (Laurits Larsen)
15. 07:47 PM - Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans (Alex Sloan)
16. 07:48 PM - Re: T-88 (Graham Hansen)
17. 07:53 PM - Re: T-88 (Bill Budgell)
18. PM - stick it in a cute blonde tonight! 15 (jan)
19. 10:53 PM - large lot of Corvairs for sale in IL (DJ Vegh)
Message 1
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pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Well, here's a subject I can express an opinion on since my "Flying
Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled with T-88 so I have some
experience with it. Living in Oregon when I did all the wood construction,
my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or 60's and I never had a problem
with the T-88 developing full strength and solidifying. As a matter of
fact, it was a relief to me to read that this is one of the benefits of T-88
(ability to use effectively at lower temperatures). The first time I mixed
some up I used hypodermics to accurately measure quantities, but that was
the only time. From then on I mixed it by eye and again, never had any
problems with joints developing full strength. The ratio is very important,
but not ultra-critical.
My recommendations go along with the others already mentioned: don't clamp
too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out to ensure a full joint, make sure
your joints are held firmly in place so things don't creep or slide during
cure, and when you mix the two parts you should have something the
consistency of honey that you spread onto the surfaces to be glued. I use
plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain wood tongue depressors to mix my
epoxy. You can pay more for these by ordering them from an aircraft supply,
but what for? After buying my first lot from one of the suppliers and then
seeing the very same thing in my local Costco store for 30% less cost, I
never went back.
I've had to "unglue" or remove things that were glued and cured, and I can
say with confidence that (with Douglas fir, anyway) my glue joints were
stronger than the wood fibers they were bonded to.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 2
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Subject: | Boradhead accomodations |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
Hi guys,
Any suggestions about where to stay at Broadhead? Was hoping there'd be a list
in the last newsletter, but no.
Douwe
Message 3
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pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: | Official minutes of unofficial meeting |
NOTICE: Download of attached photo is optional. I apologize in advance if anyone
is inconvenienced by excessive file size.
**********************************
Minutes of the 1st semi-periodic loosely sporadic un-official meeting of the North
Texas Pietenpol Association (NTPA). Date Tues May 4, 2004
1. Attendance: 6 - See picture attached.
2. 1st item of business: Motion was made to go eat. All were in favor for flavor.
3. Motion was made to eat Dessert. Motion passed 5 - 1
4. Meeting was temporarily interrupted due to conversation with Purple Cow waiter
who may indeed be a potential Piet builder and future NTPA convert. Appointed
Jim Markle for follow up discussion with waiter on future date.
5. Final order of business: Splitting up the tab with NTPA funds. Appointed Andi
Davis as unofficial NTPA treasurer.
6. Meeting adjourned for tour of J.Markle's manufacturing/ production facility
and Pietenpol progress.
All agreed the best part about building a Pietenpol is the friends made along the
way. Thanks to Andi, Max, Julie, and Jim for the wonderful hospitality shown
to Leann and myself. Also, thanks to Andi's parents for looking after the
kids. Hope we didn't keep Andi out too late!
Let us know when the next meeting will be. We had a great time.
Terry B
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
The photo of the airplane behind the meeting shows built-up spars of plywood
web with apparently fir or spruce caps. Have these been described to the
list and does their design have some sort of an operational history?
----- Original Message -----
From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com>
<pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
Message 5
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Subject: | Differance in dimensions between dated plans |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
Fellow Pietenpol Builders,
I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building the
extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured
from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans the
dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance?
I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them
to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons.
Hoping to hear from someone.
Alex Sloan
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
Wow, such attention to detail.....well, that spar design (I built it....)
has been used by a few Pietenpol builders. There are a lot of detailed
pictures, etc in my log on mykitplane.com.
Basically, it's the same size dimensionally as the routed 1" spar built by
Pietenpol, except that my web is not quite 1/2" thick. The built out top
and bottom (where the REAL loads are concentrated) are both 1" square after
the build out. I used doug fir/T88 but would probably use spruce/T88 next
time....
Not sure about what would qualify as an "operational history" except to say
that I personally know of at least one "single piece" wing Air Camper that
is flying today with such a design.
The calculations will likely show that building out the top and bottom to 1"
square would only require a 3/16" web (with vertical stiffeners at each
rib). On paper......
I'm not saying to do it that way, just that on paper it would most likely
handle the loads.
I did some destructive tests and this thing is strong.
(I'm using terms like "most likely" and "will likely show" since all this is
presented as just one possible way of building a Pietenpol Air Camper spar.
I obviously believe in the design MUCH more that that terminology might
indicate....)
Hope this answers your question (at least to some degree).....
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@verizon.net>
>
> The photo of the airplane behind the meeting shows built-up spars of
plywood
> web with apparently fir or spruce caps. Have these been described to the
> list and does their design have some sort of an operational history?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com>
> To: <jim_markle@mindspring.com>; <Andimaxd@aol.com>; <stitchin29@aol.com>;
> <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:13 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Nice photo, Terry and thank you for the update on the NTPA meeting.
Jim-- I noticed that your front wing strut attach fittings are blue but the
rear ones are white. I sure would like you to explain this. I can't seem
to find that on the plans anywhere. Also, nice looking barstool and floor
fan behind you all.
Mike C.
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Official minutes of unofficial meeting |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
WAY to much attention to detail!!!!
Now I'm glad I picked up my old empty beer cans and dirty socks and other stuff
before anyone showed up!!!
I'm doing scallops in Ford Blue (against sort of a beige/cream color background)
on the LE of the wing.....and when I layed them out, one of the scallops goes
back into the front strut fitting area.....so I didn't want a beige strut fitting
sticking down out of blue fabric.....
Interesting that several people have noticed and commented (ok, harrassed me) about
it.....
I started on the wood for the landing gear last night and finished the pattern
for the front piece...wow, what a project! Cut a little, mark it again, sand
it, cut some more, mark again, back to the sander again, etc etc.... Thank goodness
I've seen a lot of good ideas for how to do this here on the list.....compound
angles are SUCH fun!
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Official minutes of unofficial meeting
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Nice photo, Terry and thank you for the update on the NTPA meeting.
Jim-- I noticed that your front wing strut attach fittings are blue but the
rear ones are white. I sure would like you to explain this. I can't seem
to find that on the plans anywhere. Also, nice looking barstool and floor
fan behind you all.
Mike C.
Message 9
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Subject: | Costs of Fabric Covering |
OK...I am going to throw this out there. Please hold the wolves back from attacking
me for beating a dead horse.
I am attaching a picture of a very nice little airplane. It was built by Hank
Stynes in Texas. On Tuesday, Max Davis met me and my wife in Grandview TX. We
drove out to Hanks place and had a nice visit looking over his nice Piet. Since
Max and I are both near ready for fabric, we got into a discussion about
fabric finishing. Ol' Hank (his hangar sign actually reads O'FART's HANGAR) talked
with us about his fabric job and relayed some of his difficulties. I was
never really clear on what he had used on his Piet, but he was not happy with
the finish. If he had it to do over again, he swears that he would use spar
varnish for clear penetration coat on ceconite... Then mix varnish with silver
powder for UV resistance. Then use house paint for color finishing.
Now I have already purchased 2.7 oz. fabric for my fuselage and tail. I have been
planning to go with the Poly Fiber process all the way through because I am
familiar with it, because I am confident I can achieve a nice finish, because
it is repairable and durable. But I understand that I am in for quite a bit
of $$ by the time I am through. Does anyone have a TOTAL cost for the a complete
Piet job with Poly-Fiber?
I am all for finding cheaper alternatives. But I am a skeptic when it comes to
departing from the tried-and-true methods. I have seen Bob Siebert's Latex paint
and it is beautiful. But I have often wondered how it will look five years
down the road. So I am writing this looking for some hard FACTS about the
pros and cons of various finishes that have been done. I want to hear from people
who have used Latex or other finishing products. I want to hear how good
or bad it has weathered the elements over time...how easy or difficult it is
to repair and blend. What about hangar rash, gasoline spills, patching, fading,
etc...
Somebody out there convince me that theres a cheaper and equal or better alternative
to the STCd fabric finishing systems. Otherwise.... I am sticking with
the PF process and my wallet will suffer the consequences.
Max...I know you're lurking out there and am sure you are interested in this too.
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans |
Alex,
I just put on my thinking cap. What I did was , since the rear of the horz stab.
(which is flat and is the surface for the elevator hinges) is even with the
rear of the tail post, AND even with the rear of the vert. stab., Just lay the
horz stab. on the fuse even at the rear, and mark the fwd edge of the stab.
on the fuse. Then you can see what number is right. Think I left plenty of
room (like 1") at end of stringers, and after completely building the whole shebang.
I went back and added a block to bring the turtledeck nicely close to
the stab. Keep in mind that the opening will close up from both sides after
covering and painting !!!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Sloan
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 1:17 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
Fellow Pietenpol Builders,
I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building the
extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured
from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans
the dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance?
I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them
to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons.
Hoping to hear from someone.
Alex Sloan
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Costs of Fabric Covering |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
I used the thin dacron (1.? oz) with Poly Fiber. Second project with Poly
Fiber. Wouldn't use anything else. Got the dacron from AS&S ,,the economy
stuff for just over $3.00 per running yard. Everyone I talk to , even the
old timers tell me that ALL of the dacron comes off one loom. they take
the certified stuff off and then make the uncertified stuff. And for the
home builder, it's all the same. If you hold the uncertified stuff up to
the light, you can see dark lines every once in a while. That's where they
join threads. That's no good for certified. But you know darn well that
when the Poly Fiber gets into it, it's not going anywhere.
As far as the Poly top coats, I did mine right to the manual, and even at
$70.00+ per gallon of the non reds, I did my Piet for lots less than $500.00
I couldn't see putting house paint on a project that I put my life into for
years.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering
> OK...I am going to throw this out there. Please hold the wolves back from
attacking me for beating a dead horse.
>
> I am attaching a picture of a very nice little airplane. It was built by
Hank Stynes in Texas. On Tuesday, Max Davis met me and my wife in Grandview
TX. We drove out to Hanks place and had a nice visit looking over his nice
Piet. Since Max and I are both near ready for fabric, we got into a
discussion about fabric finishing. Ol' Hank (his hangar sign actually reads
O'FART's HANGAR) talked with us about his fabric job and relayed some of his
difficulties. I was never really clear on what he had used on his Piet, but
he was not happy with the finish. If he had it to do over again, he swears
that he would use spar varnish for clear penetration coat on ceconite...
Then mix varnish with silver powder for UV resistance. Then use house paint
for color finishing.
>
> Now I have already purchased 2.7 oz. fabric for my fuselage and tail. I
have been planning to go with the Poly Fiber process all the way through
because I am familiar with it, because I am confident I can achieve a nice
finish, because it is repairable and durable. But I understand that I am in
for quite a bit of $$ by the time I am through. Does anyone have a TOTAL
cost for the a complete Piet job with Poly-Fiber?
>
> I am all for finding cheaper alternatives. But I am a skeptic when it
comes to departing from the tried-and-true methods. I have seen Bob
Siebert's Latex paint and it is beautiful. But I have often wondered how it
will look five years down the road. So I am writing this looking for some
hard FACTS about the pros and cons of various finishes that have been done.
I want to hear from people who have used Latex or other finishing products.
I want to hear how good or bad it has weathered the elements over time...how
easy or difficult it is to repair and blend. What about hangar rash,
gasoline spills, patching, fading, etc...
>
> Somebody out there convince me that theres a cheaper and equal or better
alternative to the STCd fabric finishing systems. Otherwise.... I am
sticking with the PF process and my wallet will suffer the consequences.
>
> Max...I know you're lurking out there and am sure you are interested in
this too.
>
Message 12
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
One additional note.....do not use waxed
Dixie cups. Any wax will
degrade T-88's holding power.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
"Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Well, here's a subject I can express an
opinion on since my "Flying
> Squirrel" is wood framed and is assembled
with T-88 so I have some
> experience with it. Living in Oregon when
I did all the wood construction,
> my workshop was rarely out of the 50's or
60's and I never had a problem
> with the T-88 developing full strength and
solidifying. As a matter of
> fact, it was a relief to me to read that
this is one of the benefits of T-88
> (ability to use effectively at lower
temperatures). The first time I mixed
> some up I used hypodermics to accurately
measure quantities, but that was
> the only time. From then on I mixed it by
eye and again, never had any
> problems with joints developing full
strength. The ratio is very important,
> but not ultra-critical.
>
> My recommendations go along with the others
already mentioned: don't clamp
> too tightly, make sure you get squeeze-out
to ensure a full joint, make sure
> your joints are held firmly in place so
things don't creep or slide during
> cure, and when you mix the two parts you
should have something the
> consistency of honey that you spread onto
the surfaces to be glued. I use
> plain, small, Dixie-type cups and plain
wood tongue depressors to mix my
> epoxy. You can pay more for these by
ordering them from an aircraft supply,
> but what for? After buying my first lot
from one of the suppliers and then
> seeing the very same thing in my local
Costco store for 30% less cost, I
> never went back.
>
> I've had to "unglue" or remove things that
were glued and cured, and I can
> say with confidence that (with Douglas fir,
anyway) my glue joints were
> stronger than the wood fibers they were
bonded to.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
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>
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Message 13
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While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the
"white" component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits
and after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals
be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?
Message 14
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Hi:
I experienced the same thing and took the easy way out; just set the plastic bottle
in the sun for an afternoon. The problems was solved.
Currently welding an intake manifold for my 'A' for my new Solex 'Jeep' downdraft
carburetor.
Lou Larsen
----- Original Message -----
From: Carbarvo@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white"
component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits and
after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals
be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Differance in dimensions between dated plans |
Walt,
You have reiterated what I have planned. Still curious as to "why" it is presented
as it is.
Thanks.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: walt evans
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
Alex,
I just put on my thinking cap. What I did was , since the rear of the horz stab.
(which is flat and is the surface for the elevator hinges) is even with the
rear of the tail post, AND even with the rear of the vert. stab., Just lay
the horz stab. on the fuse even at the rear, and mark the fwd edge of the stab.
on the fuse. Then you can see what number is right. Think I left plenty
of room (like 1") at end of stringers, and after completely building the whole
shebang. I went back and added a block to bring the turtledeck nicely close
to the stab. Keep in mind that the opening will close up from both sides after
covering and painting !!!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Sloan
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 1:17 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Differance in dimensions between dated plans
Fellow Pietenpol Builders,
I have asked this question before but had no one answer it. I am building
the extended fuselage version. On my fuselage plans at the rear and on top measured
from tail post location is a dimenssion of 18 7/8" On the original plans
the dimension given is 18" Is there any one who can tell me why the 7/8" differance?
I am ready to add the stringers and I need to know where to stop them
to allow for the horizontal stabilizer, to sit on the upper longerons.
Hoping to hear from someone.
Alex Sloan
Message 16
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The "white" component of T-88 does tend to granulate over time, but this is easily
corrected by placing the container in hot (not boiling) water until it liquifies
once more. This doesn't seem to produce an adverse effect on its adhesive
qualities, and it is a safe method. Hot air would also do the trick, but I
have found hot water to be quite effective.
Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN)
Message 17
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yes
-----Original Message-----
From: Carbarvo@aol.com <Carbarvo@aol.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Date: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88
While we're on this subject, can anyone comment on the tendency of the "white"
component of T-88 to crystalize and get VERY viscose. I've bought two kits and
after a time, the same thing has happened to both of them. Can the crystals
be put back into solution by heating the container in boiling water?
Message 18
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Subject: | t in a cute blonde tonight! 15 |
Message 19
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From: | "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com> (by way of Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>) |
Subject: | large lot of Corvairs for sale in IL |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com> (by way of Matt
Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
I got this in an off-list email from former list member Robert Haines. It
may be of some interest to some of you.
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DJ,
I found the following ad in a local paper here in southern Illinois. Pass
it along to the Peit and Corvair guys (I'm not on the lists anymore).
13-CORVAIRS, 2-VANS, 2-TRUCKS: 1-wagon, 8-2-4 doors, rough. $2,500 obo or
trade for all. Wayne City IL (618)842-2057
Robert Haines
Du Quoin, Illinois
http://roberthaines.us
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