---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/10/04: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:00 AM - T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 07:02 AM - Re: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans (Larry Ragan) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans (Jim Markle) 4. 03:43 PM - Re: Costs of Fabric Covering (Steve Eldredge) 5. 03:59 PM - Re: T-88 - now way, way OT - Dixie Cups, brushing teeth & ove... (Waytogopiet@aol.com) 6. 05:55 PM - Re: T-88 - now way, way OT - Dixie Cups, brushing teeth & ove... (DJ Vegh) 7. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: wing strut static testing (Bert Conoly) 8. 06:58 PM - Tolerances and T-88 (Jake Nichols) 9. 09:46 PM - Re: Costs of Fabric Covering (dave rowe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:48 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Chris; my statement did specify "plain" cups, not waxed. I'm very careful about any waxed products or waxes in my shop... epoxy and fiberglass do not like wax. However, we have had plenty of rain here in south-central Texas, our aquifer seems to be nearing its record high, and we welcome people who want to move here (unlike DJ, who has to use a rinse cup rather than letting the water run while brushing and avoiding his 7,000 new neighbors). Just remember that San Antonio has received notoriety as being the sweatiest and fattest city in the U.S., whether or not its inhabitants brush their teeth. As opposed to North Texas, where people brush regularly, get more tornadoes, and often have mysterious boxes in their shops. So, Jim- where exactly is your shop and where is "home" for the North Texas Piet Builders? Can Texans from other parts of the state visit your shop? And do you brush after eating at the Purple Cow? (We won't even go into waxed vs. unwaxed dental floss). Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:25 AM PST US From: "Larry Ragan" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Larry Ragan" Let me see if I have this right......sweatiest, fattest, and don't brush their teeth. I got a feeling that S.A.'s population may stay about the same, if not drop off. Larry Ragan Jacksonville, Fl. lragan@hotmail.com Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:42 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" I was wondering how long it would take for someone to drag the North Texas club into this...... North Texans and Dixie cups???....even THAT defies "6 degrees of separation".....well, maybe not. Mysterious boxes in my shop (located in Plano TX)....if you only knew! Come to think of it, I'M not even sure what's in some of those boxes! I have a 4 year old son and a 6 year old son, so looking in unfamiliar boxes (before they start to smell....) is just not a good idea....that box could be full of roley-poleys, legos or half eaten pop tarts ("hop-tarts" as my 4 year old calls them)....so who knows, I'M not opening any box unless I'm SURE what's in it! And I've decided that in all FUTURE pictures, we should include something placed strategically in the background to give everyone something to REALLY look for.......I'm intrigued with everyone's fascination with "things not Pietenpol related" in these pictures.....but why not step up to the challenge? Give em' something to hunt for! Ok, just to move a tiny bit closer to REAL Pietenpol related stuff.....I'm making the straight axle landing gear parts this week. Laminated some ash last night (I was very careful to buy slightly undersized ash at the wood place rather than getting 4/4 or 5/4 like I needed!) and will cut the front vertical pieces hopefully tonite. I'm amazed as how heavy ash is but with all the concentrated loads on the landing gear, I'm sure some weight/strength is a good thing. I had struggled for weeks over how to make the cuts and then Max Davis showed up with a compound miter saw.....duh, why didn't I think of that? The job will be a LOT easier now than the trimming/sanding/trimming/more sanding/fitting/etc I had in mind...... Ok, enough for now...... JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: T-88, Dixie cups, and North Texans > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Chris; my statement did specify "plain" cups, not waxed. I'm very careful > about any waxed products or waxes in my shop... epoxy and fiberglass do not > like wax. However, we have had plenty of rain here in south-central Texas, > our aquifer seems to be nearing its record high, and we welcome people who > want to move here (unlike DJ, who has to use a rinse cup rather than letting > the water run while brushing and avoiding his 7,000 new neighbors). Just > remember that San Antonio has received notoriety as being the sweatiest and > fattest city in the U.S., whether or not its inhabitants brush their teeth. > > As opposed to North Texas, where people brush regularly, get more tornadoes, > and often have mysterious boxes in their shops. So, Jim- where exactly is > your shop and where is "home" for the North Texas Piet Builders? Can Texans > from other parts of the state visit your shop? And do you brush after > eating at the Purple Cow? (We won't even go into waxed vs. unwaxed dental > floss). > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering From: "Steve Eldredge" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" In 1997 I used Sherwin Williams gloss house paint. No problems with fading or cracking. It even spent two years outside. I'd do it again, just not with an airless sprayer in 85 degree weather. Brush or roll in cool weather, and it rivals poly fiber. As for repairability, I just got my first chance to try it and I'll let you know. Minor touch-ups have been invisible after a week. I did it because I was young and poor at the time. I'd do it again because it has stood up fine, and it is cheap. Steve Eldredge NX7229R -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Phillips Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" I agree Walt. I did the same thing - PolyFiber all the way. Why scrimp and take the chance of having house paint flake off in a couple of years? Yes the PolyFiber products are expensive, but they are the best quality paints I've ever seen, and their support staff is wonderful. Even spending the big bucks for Aerothane, I will have in this project, which has taken me over seven years, the same amount of money (about $14,000) that a two pack a day smoker would spend on cigarettes in the same time frame. Jack Phillips Spraying some of that expensive PolyFiber stuff this morning. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" I used the thin dacron (1.? oz) with Poly Fiber. Second project with Poly Fiber. Wouldn't use anything else. Got the dacron from AS&S ,,the economy stuff for just over $3.00 per running yard. Everyone I talk to , even the old timers tell me that ALL of the dacron comes off one loom. they take the certified stuff off and then make the uncertified stuff. And for the home builder, it's all the same. If you hold the uncertified stuff up to the light, you can see dark lines every once in a while. That's where they join threads. That's no good for certified. But you know darn well that when the Poly Fiber gets into it, it's not going anywhere. As far as the Poly top coats, I did mine right to the manual, and even at $70.00+ per gallon of the non reds, I did my Piet for lots less than $500.00 I couldn't see putting house paint on a project that I put my life into for years. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering > OK...I am going to throw this out there. Please hold the wolves back from attacking me for beating a dead horse. > > I am attaching a picture of a very nice little airplane. It was built by Hank Stynes in Texas. On Tuesday, Max Davis met me and my wife in Grandview TX. We drove out to Hanks place and had a nice visit looking over his nice Piet. Since Max and I are both near ready for fabric, we got into a discussion about fabric finishing. Ol' Hank (his hangar sign actually reads O'FART's HANGAR) talked with us about his fabric job and relayed some of his difficulties. I was never really clear on what he had used on his Piet, but he was not happy with the finish. If he had it to do over again, he swears that he would use spar varnish for clear penetration coat on ceconite... Then mix varnish with silver powder for UV resistance. Then use house paint for color finishing. > > Now I have already purchased 2.7 oz. fabric for my fuselage and tail. I have been planning to go with the Poly Fiber process all the way through because I am familiar with it, because I am confident I can achieve a nice finish, because it is repairable and durable. But I understand that I am in for quite a bit of $$ by the time I am through. Does anyone have a TOTAL cost for the a complete Piet job with Poly-Fiber? > > I am all for finding cheaper alternatives. But I am a skeptic when it comes to departing from the tried-and-true methods. I have seen Bob Siebert's Latex paint and it is beautiful. But I have often wondered how it will look five years down the road. So I am writing this looking for some hard FACTS about the pros and cons of various finishes that have been done. I want to hear from people who have used Latex or other finishing products. I want to hear how good or bad it has weathered the elements over time...how easy or difficult it is to repair and blend. What about hangar rash, gasoline spills, patching, fading, etc... > > Somebody out there convince me that theres a cheaper and equal or better alternative to the STCd fabric finishing systems. Otherwise.... I am sticking with the PF process and my wallet will suffer the consequences. > > Max...I know you're lurking out there and am sure you are interested in this too. > == == == == ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:42 PM PST US From: Waytogopiet@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 - now way, way OT - Dixie Cups, brushing teeth & ove... In a message dated 5/9/2004 9:05:30 PM Central Standard Time, djv@imagedv.com writes: T-88 connects to Dixie Cups connects to water conservation connects to Maricopa county growth rate connects to DJ Vegh's ire for newcomers to The Valley of the Sun. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper Doggone it DJ, here I was considering moving myself and the Piet to your part of the world. I guess the reception wouldn't be all that great. Suppose next month's population increase will just have to be 6,999 :)) Don ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:31 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 - now way, way OT - Dixie Cups, brushing teeth & ove... well.... come one now! If your a Piet lover I say the more the merrier! I was primarily speaking of all the yuppie California transplants. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper - ----- Original Message ----- From: Waytogopiet@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: T-88 - now way, way OT - Dixie Cups, brushing teeth & ove... In a message dated 5/9/2004 9:05:30 PM Central Standard Time, djv@imagedv.com writes: T-88 connects to Dixie Cups connects to water conservation connects to Maricopa county growth rate connects to DJ Vegh's ire for newcomers to The Valley of the Sun. DJ Vegh N74DV Mesa, AZ www.imagedv.com/aircamper Doggone it DJ, here I was considering moving myself and the Piet to your part of the world. I guess the reception wouldn't be all that great. Suppose next month's population increase will just have to be 6,999 :)) Don ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:12 PM PST US From: "Bert Conoly" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing strut static testing Thanks, Clif! I think I see how they did it.. BC ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2004 3:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing strut static testing Seeing as how I don't have your addy I'll give you this here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoNameIMG_0592.jpg&PhotoID1397 This is the lift distribution of a hershy bar wing across the semispan. You can inject the position of the lift strut and find the lift ( or lack thereof) at the cabane and strut tension etc. Three aspect ratios are charted. 6 is close to ours. Clif Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing strut static testing I'm not redesigning anything but I was interested in doing a static load test (to check those fork ends and welds, you know) on my lift struts and I am curious what loads are acceptable. One way produces about twice the required as the other. Please respond off line. Thanks, Bert (who heads off to the paint shop next weekend) do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:47 PM PST US From: "Jake Nichols" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tolerances and T-88 I now have cut the pieces for my test stabilizer and am going to be using the T-88 to put it together. My question is, how large a gap will T-88 safely fill? The largest is about 1/16th". Would T-88 safely fill a gap that large? When I start building to fly I will be using better tools and able to keep the tolerances much tighter. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:56 PM PST US From: dave rowe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Costs of Fabric Covering --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dave rowe Had to put my 2 cents worth in. Check Kitplanes, there was something a whileago about latex paint. It has all the desireable qualities for fabric. Just because something is expensive doesn't make it better. If it's certified, it's expensive. Not necessarily quality, a lot of the stuff on the local clubs 152s and 172s is garbage. But it's certified garbage. If you built a Piet exactly the way it was designed, from period materials, there wouldn't be much that would meet certification, but it flew, and quite fine thank you. Do some research, find out what others have tried, and make up your mind based on that. Build a test piece, cover it, and try different materials. Bake it in the hot sun, hit it with the hose, try it all and see what happens. Top quality latex exterior house paint is flexible, UV resistant, and has long guarantees. Industrial Plastics and Paints here in canada sells an excellent polyurethane with flex agents, specifically for fabric homebuilts. Because it's a derivative of a marine paint, it didn't cost a lot to modify it for aircraft. Not certified, thus not expensive. Remember the whole experimental thing?