Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - Adjustable Elevator Trim Tab (Dick and Marge Gillespie)
2. 07:07 AM - Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
3. 08:06 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Michael D Cuy)
4. 08:28 AM - First Flightsp (Ken Montoure - GCI)
5. 08:55 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Jim Markle)
6. 09:10 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
7. 09:10 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
8. 09:20 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (At7000ft@aol.com)
9. 09:39 AM - Way to go, KEN ! (Michael D Cuy)
10. 09:54 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Michael D Cuy)
11. 09:58 AM - no fuel pump (Michael D Cuy)
12. 11:06 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Isablcorky@aol.com)
13. 11:54 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Alex Sloan)
14. 12:25 PM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (walt evans)
15. 12:52 PM - Re: Ken Montoure -- First Flightsp (Jimmy Courtney)
16. 01:19 PM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Alex Sloan)
17. 05:47 PM - Re: First Flightsp (John Dilatush)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Adjustable Elevator Trim Tab |
Group,
Does the direction of rotation of the propellor have an effect on which elevator
you should have the trim on? If so, which elevator would you put the trim
on for a clockwise rotation (65 Cont. for example)?
Dick G.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below. With
a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at almost
15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that the tank
outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable fuel). That
would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at the lowest point
and still not extend below the fuselage.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202
How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the design?
I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last night.
We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65 service manual.
It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor inlet should have
2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity check (measurement)
with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to simulate the extreme climg
attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to whether this is a realistic number
for the max climb angle? Chuck read a report saying that the piet airfoil
stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am guessing that with full power, the actual
attitude with respect to the horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I
just don't know how much less.
To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down a little
ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the tank so that
expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the tank when filled
in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and what seems to work
the best?
Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments.
Terry L. Bowden
ph 254-715-4773
fax 254-853-3805
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
Terry-- your tank mock-up looks very good. I used the fuel flow
calculations that Tony B. shows in his book Firewall Forward and I don't
think he mentioned a specific degree angle of attack to set the plane up on
(or tank) for flow measurements in climb but said to position it in a
'climb attitude'. My tank is very similar and I have no baffles-- no
problem and the expansion of the fuel is not a factor for me at all. You
might want to position your filler neck towards the front of the tank if
you are concerned with not having a void area of up there but I just
positioned mine in the middle and fill it to the bottom of the neck or 1/2"
below.
I used a graduated Rubbermaid translucent 2 quart juice type container from
Wal Mart and the second hand on my clock (or digital chronograph on your
watch) to time the fuel flow and calculate gallons per minute of flow AT
the carb. inlet. (as again, upon reading what Bingelis advised) Having 17
gallons when full, my UN-useable fuel numbers didn't happen until I was
down 1.5 gallons when it petered out. (Pietered out ?) Running a 65
Cont. Anywho....hope this helps.
Mike C.
Message 4
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To All Pietenpol Affectionados:
Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST!
Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST!
Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!!
Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings.
WHAT A RUSH!!!!
All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said.
Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am.
Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list.
Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead.
Ken Montoure
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: First Flightsp |
DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
Mike,
Thanks for the input. What size plumbing lines do you have? 3/8"? Wow....17
gallons...your tank must go almost all the way to the floorboard. If so, that
might be why you have 1.5 gallons unuseable at climb attitude. As for expansion
space, I am going by the design # of 2% which is what the regs say for part
23 airplanes. It sounds like your filler neck position works well.
One more question, Mike. How much longer, if any, did you extend the engine mount
from the plans dimension. (The 1965 mount drawing I have shows the top mount
point for the A65 is 11 and 3/8".) I have been working on W&B calculations
and have decided to increase that length to 17 inches. (I have the short fuselage.)
Terry L. Bowden
p.s. Your terminology "pietered out" would be more correct if you were using a
"Pieter" Pan instead of a rubbermaid container.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
Mike,
Thanks for the input. What size plumbing lines do you have? 3/8"? Wow....17
gallons...your tank must go almost all the way to the floorboard. If so, that
might be why you have 1.5 gallons unuseable at climb attitude. As for expansion
space, I am going by the design # of 2% which is what the regs say for part
23 airplanes. It sounds like your filler neck position works well.
One more question, Mike. How much longer, if any, did you extend the engine mount
from the plans dimension. (The 1965 mount drawing I have shows the top mount
point for the A65 is 11 and 3/8".) I have been working on W&B calculations
and have decided to increase that length to 17 inches. (I have the short fuselage.)
Terry L. Bowden
p.s. Your terminology "pietered out" would be more correct if you were using a
"Pieter" Pan instead of a rubbermaid container.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com
Mike
Do you use a fuel pump or just rely on gravity?
Rick H
>>>>>>>>>
I used a graduated Rubbermaid translucent 2 quart juice type container from Wal
Mart and the second hand on my clock (or digital chronograph on your watch) to
time the fuel flow and calculate gallons per minute of flow AT the carb. inlet.
(as again, upon reading what Bingelis advised) Having 17 gallons when full,
my UN-useable fuel numbers didn't happen until I was down 1.5 gallons when
it petered out. (Pietered out ?) Running a 65 Cont. Anywho....hope this
helps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Way to go, KEN ! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
GREAT to hear your news from Alaska, Ken. You stuck with it, man
!!! You win, you got to the end,
the prize, the finish line------ not many make it that far. EXCELLENT
!!!! Your fun has JUST begun !
Mike C.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Gosh Terry......I do think I have 3/8" fuel delivery lines, yes. And
yes, I have more fuel than bladder limitations, human endurance
wise. Still nice to not to have to worry about how low I am on fuel most
times.
My engine mount is 1" longer than Pietenpol's plans for the 65 Cont. but to
do it over again I'd easily go 2" and most likely 3" over plans. (unless
you weigh 160 or less.......) The worst thing that will happen Terry is
that you will NOT have to move your wing back/slanted cabanes with a longer
motor mount. Brian Kenny went 9" over plans (from Canada) and his cabane
struts are upright----didn't have to move the wing back. He's about my
wt. at 190---195.
Mike C.
Message 11
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Don H........the fuel flow was totally adequate with just gravity so no
fuel pump required. I would always do a flow test do see---it's really
pretty easy to do if you follow TB's method in his books. (ps...I don't
get any commission for mentioning his books 4 zillion times a year on this
list:))
Mike C.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: First Flightsp |
Ken,
Haven't heard from you since you sent me the C/S fuel tank to New Orleans,
which I gave to a Pieter builder somewhere in Texas.
Proud to hear you finished and flew. As Mike says so many get to different
stages but very few complete and fly.
Check, check and recheck before every flight and check, check and recheck
your post-flights and it will be a rewarding experience.
Corky
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: First Flightsp |
Congratulations Ken.
Alex Sloan
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Montoure - GCI
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:23 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp
To All Pietenpol Affectionados:
Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST!
Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST!
Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!!
Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings.
WHAT A RUSH!!!!
All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said.
Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am.
Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list.
Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead.
Ken Montoure
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Terry,
I built the nose as per prints with the long fuse. I have a flat bottomed
tank that just sits on the ply shelf (on felt). Comes in at 14 gallons.
Think this might keep the tank outlet a little higher than yours.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions.
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
>
> I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below.
With a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at
almost 15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that
the tank outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable
fuel). That would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at
the lowest point and still not extend below the fuselage.
>
> http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202
>
> How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the
design?
>
> I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last
night. We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65
service manual. It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor
inlet should have 2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity
check (measurement) with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to
simulate the extreme climg attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to
whether this is a realistic number for the max climb angle? Chuck read a
report saying that the piet airfoil stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am
guessing that with full power, the actual attitude with respect to the
horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I just don't know how much less.
>
> To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down
a little ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the
tank so that expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the
tank when filled in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and
what seems to work the best?
>
> Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments.
>
> Terry L. Bowden
> ph 254-715-4773
> fax 254-853-3805
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ken Montoure -- First Flightsp |
Congratulations!!
It's great to hear about another "chick out of the nest!" I bought a set of plans
and all if the extras from Don Pietenpol about 6 months ago. I'll start mine
shortly. How about some pictures and descriptions for all of us Piet-People!
Let us know about flight developments.
Jim Courtney
Florence, MS
jbciii5656@yahoo.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Montoure - GCI
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp
To All Pietenpol Affectionados:
Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST!
Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST!
Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!!
Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings.
WHAT A RUSH!!!!
All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said.
Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am.
Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list.
Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead.
Ken Montoure
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alex Sloan" <alexms1@bellsouth.net>
Terry,
In regards to the expansion question. On all the fuel tanks I have built I
have had a vent line instlled and on hot days is is not uncommon to see
drops of fuel dropping out. I would be of the opinion that a vent line of
1/4" size should take care of any expansion as it will keep in tank
pressures neutral.
This has been my approach to the question on the 5 fuel tanks I have built.
They were all of aluminum and rivited using pro seal.
Alex Sloan
----- Original Message -----
From: <BARNSTMR@aol.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions.
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below.
With a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at
almost 15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that
the tank outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable
fuel). That would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at
the lowest point and still not extend below the fuselage.
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202
How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the
design?
I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last
night. We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65
service manual. It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor
inlet should have 2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity
check (measurement) with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to
simulate the extreme climg attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to
whether this is a realistic number for the max climb angle? Chuck read a
report saying that the piet airfoil stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am
guessing that with full power, the actual attitude with respect to the
horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I just don't know how much less.
To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down a
little ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the tank
so that expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the tank
when filled in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and what
seems to work the best?
Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments.
Terry L. Bowden
ph 254-715-4773
fax 254-853-3805
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: First Flightsp |
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Montoure - GCI
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:23 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp
Ken,
Congratulations! The first flight is an emotional experience and literally brings
tears to your eyes. Kinda like the birth of your first child, Huh?
Hope you can figure out how to make it to Brodhead.
John
To All Pietenpol Affectionados:
Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST!
Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST!
Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!!
Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings.
WHAT A RUSH!!!!
All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said.
Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am.
Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list.
Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead.
Ken Montoure
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