---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/19/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:33 AM - Adjustable Elevator Trim Tab (Dick and Marge Gillespie) 2. 07:07 AM - Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 3. 08:06 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Michael D Cuy) 4. 08:28 AM - First Flightsp (Ken Montoure - GCI) 5. 08:55 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Jim Markle) 6. 09:10 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 7. 09:10 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 8. 09:20 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (At7000ft@aol.com) 9. 09:39 AM - Way to go, KEN ! (Michael D Cuy) 10. 09:54 AM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Michael D Cuy) 11. 09:58 AM - no fuel pump (Michael D Cuy) 12. 11:06 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Isablcorky@aol.com) 13. 11:54 AM - Re: First Flightsp (Alex Sloan) 14. 12:25 PM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (walt evans) 15. 12:52 PM - Re: Ken Montoure -- First Flightsp (Jimmy Courtney) 16. 01:19 PM - Re: Nose fuel tank design questions. (Alex Sloan) 17. 05:47 PM - Re: First Flightsp (John Dilatush) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:14 AM PST US From: "Dick and Marge Gillespie" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adjustable Elevator Trim Tab Group, Does the direction of rotation of the propellor have an effect on which elevator you should have the trim on? If so, which elevator would you put the trim on for a clockwise rotation (65 Cont. for example)? Dick G. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:15 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below. With a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at almost 15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that the tank outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable fuel). That would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at the lowest point and still not extend below the fuselage. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202 How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the design? I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last night. We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65 service manual. It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor inlet should have 2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity check (measurement) with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to simulate the extreme climg attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to whether this is a realistic number for the max climb angle? Chuck read a report saying that the piet airfoil stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am guessing that with full power, the actual attitude with respect to the horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I just don't know how much less. To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down a little ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the tank so that expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the tank when filled in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and what seems to work the best? Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments. Terry L. Bowden ph 254-715-4773 fax 254-853-3805 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:33 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. Terry-- your tank mock-up looks very good. I used the fuel flow calculations that Tony B. shows in his book Firewall Forward and I don't think he mentioned a specific degree angle of attack to set the plane up on (or tank) for flow measurements in climb but said to position it in a 'climb attitude'. My tank is very similar and I have no baffles-- no problem and the expansion of the fuel is not a factor for me at all. You might want to position your filler neck towards the front of the tank if you are concerned with not having a void area of up there but I just positioned mine in the middle and fill it to the bottom of the neck or 1/2" below. I used a graduated Rubbermaid translucent 2 quart juice type container from Wal Mart and the second hand on my clock (or digital chronograph on your watch) to time the fuel flow and calculate gallons per minute of flow AT the carb. inlet. (as again, upon reading what Bingelis advised) Having 17 gallons when full, my UN-useable fuel numbers didn't happen until I was down 1.5 gallons when it petered out. (Pietered out ?) Running a 65 Cont. Anywho....hope this helps. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:54 AM PST US From: Ken Montoure - GCI Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp To All Pietenpol Affectionados: Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST! Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST! Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!! Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings. WHAT A RUSH!!!! All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said. Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am. Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list. Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead. Ken Montoure ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:00 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:23 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com Mike, Thanks for the input. What size plumbing lines do you have? 3/8"? Wow....17 gallons...your tank must go almost all the way to the floorboard. If so, that might be why you have 1.5 gallons unuseable at climb attitude. As for expansion space, I am going by the design # of 2% which is what the regs say for part 23 airplanes. It sounds like your filler neck position works well. One more question, Mike. How much longer, if any, did you extend the engine mount from the plans dimension. (The 1965 mount drawing I have shows the top mount point for the A65 is 11 and 3/8".) I have been working on W&B calculations and have decided to increase that length to 17 inches. (I have the short fuselage.) Terry L. Bowden p.s. Your terminology "pietered out" would be more correct if you were using a "Pieter" Pan instead of a rubbermaid container. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:55 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com Mike, Thanks for the input. What size plumbing lines do you have? 3/8"? Wow....17 gallons...your tank must go almost all the way to the floorboard. If so, that might be why you have 1.5 gallons unuseable at climb attitude. As for expansion space, I am going by the design # of 2% which is what the regs say for part 23 airplanes. It sounds like your filler neck position works well. One more question, Mike. How much longer, if any, did you extend the engine mount from the plans dimension. (The 1965 mount drawing I have shows the top mount point for the A65 is 11 and 3/8".) I have been working on W&B calculations and have decided to increase that length to 17 inches. (I have the short fuselage.) Terry L. Bowden p.s. Your terminology "pietered out" would be more correct if you were using a "Pieter" Pan instead of a rubbermaid container. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:20 AM PST US From: At7000ft@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: At7000ft@aol.com Mike Do you use a fuel pump or just rely on gravity? Rick H >>>>>>>>> I used a graduated Rubbermaid translucent 2 quart juice type container from Wal Mart and the second hand on my clock (or digital chronograph on your watch) to time the fuel flow and calculate gallons per minute of flow AT the carb. inlet. (as again, upon reading what Bingelis advised) Having 17 gallons when full, my UN-useable fuel numbers didn't happen until I was down 1.5 gallons when it petered out. (Pietered out ?) Running a 65 Cont. Anywho....hope this helps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:34 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Way to go, KEN ! --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy GREAT to hear your news from Alaska, Ken. You stuck with it, man !!! You win, you got to the end, the prize, the finish line------ not many make it that far. EXCELLENT !!!! Your fun has JUST begun ! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:50 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Gosh Terry......I do think I have 3/8" fuel delivery lines, yes. And yes, I have more fuel than bladder limitations, human endurance wise. Still nice to not to have to worry about how low I am on fuel most times. My engine mount is 1" longer than Pietenpol's plans for the 65 Cont. but to do it over again I'd easily go 2" and most likely 3" over plans. (unless you weigh 160 or less.......) The worst thing that will happen Terry is that you will NOT have to move your wing back/slanted cabanes with a longer motor mount. Brian Kenny went 9" over plans (from Canada) and his cabane struts are upright----didn't have to move the wing back. He's about my wt. at 190---195. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:21 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: no fuel pump --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Don H........the fuel flow was totally adequate with just gravity so no fuel pump required. I would always do a flow test do see---it's really pretty easy to do if you follow TB's method in his books. (ps...I don't get any commission for mentioning his books 4 zillion times a year on this list:)) Mike C. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:19 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp Ken, Haven't heard from you since you sent me the C/S fuel tank to New Orleans, which I gave to a Pieter builder somewhere in Texas. Proud to hear you finished and flew. As Mike says so many get to different stages but very few complete and fly. Check, check and recheck before every flight and check, check and recheck your post-flights and it will be a rewarding experience. Corky ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:30 AM PST US From: "Alex Sloan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp Congratulations Ken. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Montoure - GCI To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp To All Pietenpol Affectionados: Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST! Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST! Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!! Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings. WHAT A RUSH!!!! All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said. Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am. Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list. Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead. Ken Montoure ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:20 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Terry, I built the nose as per prints with the long fuse. I have a flat bottomed tank that just sits on the ply shelf (on felt). Comes in at 14 gallons. Think this might keep the tank outlet a little higher than yours. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com > > I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below. With a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at almost 15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that the tank outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable fuel). That would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at the lowest point and still not extend below the fuselage. > > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202 > > How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the design? > > I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last night. We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65 service manual. It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor inlet should have 2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity check (measurement) with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to simulate the extreme climg attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to whether this is a realistic number for the max climb angle? Chuck read a report saying that the piet airfoil stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am guessing that with full power, the actual attitude with respect to the horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I just don't know how much less. > > To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down a little ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the tank so that expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the tank when filled in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and what seems to work the best? > > Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments. > > Terry L. Bowden > ph 254-715-4773 > fax 254-853-3805 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:55 PM PST US From: Jimmy Courtney Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ken Montoure -- First Flightsp Congratulations!! It's great to hear about another "chick out of the nest!" I bought a set of plans and all if the extras from Don Pietenpol about 6 months ago. I'll start mine shortly. How about some pictures and descriptions for all of us Piet-People! Let us know about flight developments. Jim Courtney Florence, MS jbciii5656@yahoo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Montoure - GCI Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp To All Pietenpol Affectionados: Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST! Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST! Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!! Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings. WHAT A RUSH!!!! All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said. Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am. Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list. Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead. Ken Montoure --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:06 PM PST US From: "Alex Sloan" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Alex Sloan" Terry, In regards to the expansion question. On all the fuel tanks I have built I have had a vent line instlled and on hot days is is not uncommon to see drops of fuel dropping out. I would be of the opinion that a vent line of 1/4" size should take care of any expansion as it will keep in tank pressures neutral. This has been my approach to the question on the 5 fuel tanks I have built. They were all of aluminum and rivited using pro seal. Alex Sloan ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Nose fuel tank design questions. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com I just posted some pictures of my nose fuel tank mock-up. See link below. With a few changes yet to be made, I have calculated the tank capacity at almost 15 gallons. May need to bring the bottom up a little higher so that the tank outlet is higher than the carb. inlet (to minimize the unuseable fuel). That would also give me plenty of room to install my gascolator at the lowest point and still not extend below the fuselage. http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=202 How have some of you addressed the gravity flow and expansion space in the design? I talked with Chuck Gantzer about the gravity/unuseable fuel issue last night. We looked up the carburetor inlet pressure requiement in the A65 service manual. It says...at the maximum climb attitude, the carburetor inlet should have 2 inches of gasoline (head). So, I plan to do a gravity check (measurement) with the airplane blocked up to about 15 degrees to simulate the extreme climg attitude. Does anyone have a knowledge as to whether this is a realistic number for the max climb angle? Chuck read a report saying that the piet airfoil stalls at approx 17 degrees AOA. I am guessing that with full power, the actual attitude with respect to the horizon is somewhat less than 17 degrees. I just don't know how much less. To allow for 2% expansion space I will either extend the filler neck down a little ways into the tank.... or locate the neck at the aft edge of the tank so that expansion space is ensured in the top-forward section of the tank when filled in a 3-point attitude. How have you guys done this and what seems to work the best? Thanks in advance for all your constructive comments. Terry L. Bowden ph 254-715-4773 fax 254-853-3805 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:23 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Montoure - GCI To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: First Flightsp Ken, Congratulations! The first flight is an emotional experience and literally brings tears to your eyes. Kinda like the birth of your first child, Huh? Hope you can figure out how to make it to Brodhead. John To All Pietenpol Affectionados: Hooraa, Hooraa today was the BEST! Another Pietenpol chick left the NEST! Hoop-de-do: It Flew, It Flew , It Flew!!! Three takeoffs and consequently, three landings. WHAT A RUSH!!!! All the work was worth it---just like Mike C. said. Juneau, Alaska Int. Airport tower opens at 6AM so we aviated about 5:30 am. Sustained powered flight guys!! So put N966SP in the "UP & ABOUT" list. Yes Chuck---Life is Good. Sure looks a long way to Brodhead. Ken Montoure