---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/19/04: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:48 AM - Re: to trim or not to trim () 2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: long cross country in an Air Camper () 3. 06:26 AM - Re: to trim or not to trim (John Ford) 4. 06:55 AM - Trim, J-3 gear etc. (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 5. 07:50 AM - Re: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again (Michael D Cuy) 6. 08:19 AM - Re: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again (DJ Vegh) 7. 08:36 AM - Re: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again (Michael D Cuy) 8. 09:15 AM - Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (DJ Vegh) 9. 09:49 AM - Re: to trim or not to trim (Hodgson, Mark O) 10. 10:27 AM - Re: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (Textor, Jack) 11. 10:53 AM - More important things (Isablcorky@aol.com) 12. 10:55 AM - Re: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (jimboyer@direcway.com) 13. 11:32 AM - Happy Birthday, Corky ! (Michael D Cuy) 14. 11:42 AM - Re: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (Christian Bobka) 15. 11:58 AM - Re: More important things (Mike King) 16. 12:04 PM - First "Head Scratcher" (Stacy Clark) 17. 12:12 PM - long cross country in an Air Camper (Edwin Johnson) 18. 12:13 PM - Re: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (DJ Vegh) 19. 01:13 PM - I'm gonna make some copies of the old BPA newsletters... (Jim Markle) 20. 02:08 PM - Re: trim (Richard Navratil) 21. 07:22 PM - Re: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com (KTS5TA6@wmconnect.com) 22. 08:00 PM - Re: More important things (Rcaprd@aol.com) 23. 08:47 PM - Marking elipse for inst panel (Rick Holland) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:24 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to trim or not to trim --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: English professor, right? :-) Do not archive On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:12:14 -0500 "John Ford" wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > >If you look in the matronics photoshare for pictures I >posted after >Brodhead '03, I believe I took a shot or two of an >interesting trim >system on a red piet with no cowling which used an extra >airfoil just >over the tailwheel and below the elevator, which has a >separate linkage >to the cockpit. Whew, how's that for a run-on >sentence... > >John > >John Ford >john@indstate.edu >812-237-8542 > > >>>> Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov Wednesday, August 18, 2004 >>>>1:46:56 PM >>>> >If you have a nose tank in your Piet rather than a wing >tank, the CG >changes will be much more noticeable as you burn off that >weight in the nose. (esp. if you are like me at 200 >lbs.) Someone >had >told me or I had read where Bernard installed trim >(oh gosh, really ?) on one of his planes by either >using bungees or >springs like Chris mentioned back to some tabs he welded >to >his elevator bellcrank. That is what I did and used >Home Depot >springs >and cables that go to a lever underneath my seat. >The lever puts tension on either the up or down tabs to >lessen the >stick >pressures. I really like having the trim and use it >alot. >My only problem with it is that it doesn't stay in >position (I devised >a >kind of friction lock for it that is pretty lame) but >all that would >take is a few detents or notches and I've just never >taken the time to >do >that. I know of a few builders like Jim Markle and I >think Jack >Phillips >who are (might be Jack ?) incorporating trim on their >Air Campers. > >Mike C. > >(trim is real handy on those long x-countries when you >are trying to >pee in >a bottle and just flying with your feet, man ! > > > > >Contributions >other > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list >http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:00 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Well said, Chris. I owned a J-3 Cub for many years, and even though it is nearly as light as a Piet, its trim was very necessary. Elevator pressures on a Cub, with its USA35B airfoil (nearly as much camber as a Piet) got uncomfortably high gliding at 50 mph, if the trim was set for its 75 mph cruise. I have installed a trim system on my Pietenpol very similar to the one that Mike Cuy installed on his. Neat, internal (no visible trim tabs), lightweight, and esily adjusted. Jack Phillips > > From: "Christian Bobka" > Date: 2004/08/18 Wed PM 01:35:53 EDT > To: > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > With the exception of the rare use of a 100% symetrical airfoil (like on a > late pitts), every airplane will only be in trim at one airspeed for its CG > position. The 100% symetrical airfoil has no camber, hence no center of > pressure (CP) travel with changes in angle of attack (which is determined > directly by airspeed). As you add more and more camber, the fore and aft > center of pressure travel on the wing between high and low AOAs gets greater > and greater. > > The Taylorcraft uses the NACA 23012 airfoil and does not have as much CP > travel as does the Piet's airfoil which has a tremendous amount of camber. > An added trim system would make the aircraft more pilot friendly throughout > a large airspeed (AOA) range. > > However, as the first paragraph says, every airplane will only be in trim at > one airspeed for its CG position. If you plan to fly your piet at the same > CG location and at the same speed day in and day out, then the rigging of > the decalage angle between the wing and the horizontal stabilizer will take > care of the trim. You set these angles at time of rigging, tweaking them > throughout the testing period until you are satisfied the plane can fly > hands off at your favorite power setting and AOA. > > But if you plan to fly the aircraft long hours at many different, wide > ranging CGs, then a trim system is in order. > > There is nothing worse than a long flight in an airplane that you can't > trim. > > I believe that Mike C. has a simple bungie arrangement to give the stick a > little pull one way or another. This is used in many aircraft types and is > sufficient. > > Chris Bobka > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DJ Vegh" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:09 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > I am not putting trim in mine. I just got back from a 5 day weekend of > > flying my cousins 1946 BC-12D T-craft off his grass strip. It has > elevator > > trim but I never used in once. From 55mph on final to 105 in cruise the > > trim never changed. > > > > I think that aircraft as light as these are can do without trim. > > > > DJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hodgson, Mark O" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:25 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" > > > > > > > Anyone want to comment on the general usefulness of having elevator trim > > > in one's Piet? I've seen several kinds used, wehereas BHP didn't > > > specify. Is trim just generally unnecessary or futile in something as > > > light as a Piet? I know that the Murphy Maverick doesn't have it nor do > > > a lot of other very light kits. But I have fantasies of doing long > > > x-countries and any little comfort might help, and depending on the > > > mechanism used it might affect construction of the tail (which I want to > > > start in the next couple of months). > > > > > > Mark Hodgson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:15 AM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to trim or not to trim --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" Nope. That's twice this summer I've been accused of that. Those guys get 3 months off every summer, so perhaps I need to change careers! John do not archive John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 >>> stacy@unicom-alaska.com Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:50:20 AM >>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: English professor, right? :-) Do not archive On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:12:14 -0500 "John Ford" wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > >If you look in the matronics photoshare for pictures I >posted after >Brodhead '03, I believe I took a shot or two of an >interesting trim >system on a red piet with no cowling which used an extra >airfoil just >over the tailwheel and below the elevator, which has a >separate linkage >to the cockpit. Whew, how's that for a run-on >sentence... > >John > >John Ford >john@indstate.edu >812-237-8542 > > >>>> Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov Wednesday, August 18, 2004 >>>>1:46:56 PM >>>> >If you have a nose tank in your Piet rather than a wing >tank, the CG >changes will be much more noticeable as you burn off that >weight in the nose. (esp. if you are like me at 200 >lbs.) Someone >had >told me or I had read where Bernard installed trim >(oh gosh, really ?) on one of his planes by either >using bungees or >springs like Chris mentioned back to some tabs he welded >to >his elevator bellcrank. That is what I did and used >Home Depot >springs >and cables that go to a lever underneath my seat. >The lever puts tension on either the up or down tabs to >lessen the >stick >pressures. I really like having the trim and use it >alot. >My only problem with it is that it doesn't stay in >position (I devised >a >kind of friction lock for it that is pretty lame) but >all that would >take is a few detents or notches and I've just never >taken the time to >do >that. I know of a few builders like Jim Markle and I >think Jack >Phillips >who are (might be Jack ?) incorporating trim on their >Air Campers. > >Mike C. > >(trim is real handy on those long x-countries when you >are trying to >pee in >a bottle and just flying with your feet, man ! > > > > >Contributions >other > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list >http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:45 AM PST US ETAtAhUAhSLEMBKgz5ucf48wkbAEJZOpGRECFFSsLmT9qbKCFwAO53I+VQbRVK0i From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Trim, J-3 gear etc. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) I built up a small area on the trailing edges of my elevators and rudder so that I can add bendable trim tabs if I need to. The holes are already there, all I will have to do is open the fabric and bolt them on. With no fus. tank, and the passenger on the cg, once set (for cruise) I hopefully shouldn't have to readjust them. If I intended to use J-3 gear, Cont. 65 etc. (ie, a modernized Piet) from the get go, I would suggest the Grega GN-1. John Grega re designed the Piet around these components and has already figured every thing out for you. for instance engine mt. length. Also the plans look very good. , The Pietenpol plans are any thing but good. Leon S. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:11 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again Wow DJ, what a great e-mail, Amigo ! Mike C. do not archive At 02:17 PM 8/18/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I just sent him my nasty email > >ebay will yank his ad if they were notified and investigated..... it's >strictly prohibited to sell reproductions of any copyrighted items on ebay. > >everyone else should send this guy an email > >I sent him this: > >_________ > >You do realize you are selling pirated copies of the Piet plans don't you? > >Do you also know that it is illegal to do such things? > >Check this out if you feel up for some reading during your free time. > >http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html >pay particular attention to section 506 "Criminal Offenses" > >also looky here: > >http://www.cybercrime.gov/ip.html > >The Dept. of Justice has a website with a link that allows persons to >report violations of intellectual property and internet crimes. > >I'll be checking back on this ad tomorrow and if I see it is still up and >running I will be submitting my complaint as will about 100 other >Pietenpol builders/owners who all know about your activity through the >Pietenpol email list. > >While I'm at it I'll notify ebay as well. They don't take kindly to >illegal use of thier website. > >you'd do very well to remove the ad and forget you ever did sell illegal >plans. The consequences are not worth it. I promise you that much. > >23:59 remaining >_________ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Michael D Cuy >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 1:19 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again > >Guys-- the jerk on ebay is selling another pirated copy of Pietenpol >plans. We should inundate him with guilt-trip e-mails I say. > >Mike C. > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2487080314&category=26441&sspagename=WDVW > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:59 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again HA!!! check the auction guys.... he cancelled all the bids and closed it out. I guess my 24 hour threat made him think twice. Thanks to all those who sent him nasty emails. Sometimes it takes the collective effort of all to persuade these types into submission. Long live the Pietenpol! DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 7:49 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again Wow DJ, what a great e-mail, Amigo ! Mike C. do not archive At 02:17 PM 8/18/2004 -0700, you wrote: I just sent him my nasty email ebay will yank his ad if they were notified and investigated..... it's strictly prohibited to sell reproductions of any copyrighted items on ebay. everyone else should send this guy an email I sent him this: _________ You do realize you are selling pirated copies of the Piet plans don't you? Do you also know that it is illegal to do such things? Check this out if you feel up for some reading during your free time. http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html pay particular attention to section 506 "Criminal Offenses" also looky here: http://www.cybercrime.gov/ip.html The Dept. of Justice has a website with a link that allows persons to report violations of intellectual property and internet crimes. I'll be checking back on this ad tomorrow and if I see it is still up and running I will be submitting my complaint as will about 100 other Pietenpol builders/owners who all know about your activity through the Pietenpol email list. While I'm at it I'll notify ebay as well. They don't take kindly to illegal use of thier website. you'd do very well to remove the ad and forget you ever did sell illegal plans. The consequences are not worth it. I promise you that much. 23:59 remaining _________ ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D Cuy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 1:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again Guys-- the jerk on ebay is selling another pirated copy of Pietenpol plans. We should inundate him with guilt-trip e-mails I say. Mike C. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd1&item2487080314&category26441&sspagenameWDVW ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:46 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: the counterfeiter on ebay is at it again <5.1.1.5.2.20040819104918.00fd4ba0@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Way to go, DJ........and as to copyrighted or not, it's doesn't matter. It is the ethics and principal of the matter that make this flat out wrong. I could just hear all the bleeding hearts at the ACLU tearing into us for harassing this poor guy who is just trying to "make ends meet." Idiots. On a much more serious level, a group of people here in a nearby suburb found a peeping tom looking in on a 5 year old and goofing with himself outside the window........so they beat the snot out of this pervert. The bad part is that they beat him so bad that he's in some serious shape. Can't always serve justice that way but more people would think twice if severe punishment was the price to pay. I digress. do not archive Mike C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:31 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com a few weeks back I was contacted by a Technical Writer from the Associated Press. He was writing a story on Emachineshop.com. Somehow he managed to come across my name and contacted me. He interviewed me in several emails. The article was published yesterday. He stopped short of mentioning "Pietenpol" but did say that they made parts for my 1929 era airplane. Neat story.... and great place to get lasercut and/or CNC'd parts http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmplstory&u/ap/20040818/ap_on_hi_te/online_manufacturing_6 DJ _ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to trim or not to trim From: "Hodgson, Mark O" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" Thanks to DJ, Mike C, Oscar Z, Del M., Chris B., John F., Walt E.: Think I'll go for a bungee mechanism, and try to keep the weight up front. I saw the Piet with the airfoil trim at Brodhead 2003, and wondered how much weight that added to the tail (less than the J-3's jackscrew, though). Interesting comments about Pitts and trim; Decathlons have symmetrical wings and they (and the conventional-wing but related Citabria) have the easiest to use trim of the limited number of planes I've flown, with a quick quadrant control on the left. Reaching for the J-3's trim from the back seat, and cranking and cranking, really made me wonder why the hell it was designed that way. Thanks again, Mark Hodgson Do not archive P.S. Even if BHP or Hoopman or Kapler didn't copyright the plans in some letter-of-the-law sense, selling copies without authorization is really bottom-feeder behavior, when you consider the work and risk involved in bringing these plans into existence. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com From: "Textor, Jack" DJ, That's cool stuff! Jack Des Moines Do not archive _ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:34 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: More important things Pieters, Now that you have resolved all those tech problems such as; trim for the piet, W&B, and legal stuff such as : the guy selling stolen Pietenpol plans on Ebay, why don't we settle down and do some serious planning for next season. Maybe a Tour Texas, a Tour Ohio, a Cajun Tour(WOW) or better a big get together at Party Cove (Yeah). Hurry, Corky just had another birthday and his account is getting low. Corky in beautiful La. The coolest August in memory. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:38 AM PST US From: jimboyer@direcway.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: jimboyer@direcway.com Hi DJ, Did you have the wing spar straps, motor mounts, and landing gear fittings made by them? I have made all the wing spar straps by myself but still have the motor mounts and gear fittings to make. Finally making progress on steel fittings though. Monday spent 5 hours welding all the control stick assemblies, torque rod, and rudder pedals. Will be mounting them this weekend. Its a good feeling to be making progress again. Cheers, Jim Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh Subject: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com > a few weeks back I was contacted by a Technical Writer from the > Associated Press. He was writing a story on Emachineshop.com. > Somehow he managed to come across my name and contacted me. He > interviewed me in several emails. > > The article was published yesterday. He stopped short of > mentioning "Pietenpol" but did say that they made parts for my > 1929 era airplane. > > Neat story.... and great place to get lasercut and/or CNC'd parts > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040818/ap_on_hi_te/online_manufacturing_6 > > DJ > > _ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:28 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Happy Birthday, Corky ! Hey Dad, WAY to go and celebrate another birthday. Keep them coming, man. I met a bunch of WASP (Women Air Force Service Pilots from WWII) at Oshkosh a few weeks ago and one of them is 85 (Margaret Ringenberg) who is still an active CFI, drove a race car at Indy back in May, and still flies 182's in x-country races. She said she wants to meet this Corky guy from LA so she can give him some brush up dual:)) Kidding, but it was a real treat to meet these ladies who won't be around with us forever. They are so funny, so sharp, and have great, great stories to tell. For more on them there is a great web site you can go to: http://www.twu.edu/wasp/ PS--- Did you know that all the WASP pilots were trained in the great HOT TACO state of Texas at Avenger Field in Sweetwater, Texas ???? That would make them all honorary members Sterling, no ? Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:04 AM PST US d="scan'217,208"; a="211946159:sNHT18208018" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com Wasn't there an issue of material that they used? Did they have carbon steel cold rolled or 4130 normmalized? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com a few weeks back I was contacted by a Technical Writer from the Associated Press. He was writing a story on Emachineshop.com. Somehow he managed to come across my name and contacted me. He interviewed me in several emails. The article was published yesterday. He stopped short of mentioning "Pietenpol" but did say that they made parts for my 1929 era airplane. Neat story.... and great place to get lasercut and/or CNC'd parts http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmplstory&u/ap/20040818/ap_on_hi_te/online_manufacturing_6 DJ _ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:29 AM PST US From: "Mike King" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More important things Congratulations Corky and many more birthdays to come. I like the idea of organizing a trip to LA. for some Cajun fun and flying. Mike Dallas -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: More important things Pieters, Now that you have resolved all those tech problems such as; trim for the piet, W&B, and legal stuff such as : the guy selling stolen Pietenpol plans on Ebay, why don't we settle down and do some serious planning for next season. Maybe a Tour Texas, a Tour Ohio, a Cajun Tour(WOW) or better a big get together at Party Cove (Yeah). Hurry, Corky just had another birthday and his account is getting low. Corky in beautiful La. The coolest August in memory. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:27 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Pietenpol-List: First "Head Scratcher" To all, thanks to all for the replies on the Piper struts/gear use. Looks like the struts are in and the gear's out (of course if the gear ends up being free, well...). Now for the next round... While laying out the inside lines of the fuselage for the trusses, etc. I discovered that the wood I have differs far greater than I had thought (AS&S "Modernized Pietenpol," not their "GN-1" although lists are the same regarding fuselage). As a side note, their standard Piet kit does not have 7/8" x 1" trusses either. This is what I have: 4 pc. 1" x 1" x 15' longerons 12 pc. 1" x1" x 3' side truss 16 pc. 3/4" x 1" x 3' side truss 2 pc. 1" x 1-3/8" x 2' side truss 10 pc. 1" x 1" x 2' top and bottom front truss 6 pc. 1" x 1" x 2' top and bottom rear truss 6 pc. 3/4" x 1" x 3' top and bottom rear truss 2 pc. 1/2" x 1" x 3' seat back as original 2 pc. 1/4" x 1" x 15' side stringers 7 pc. 1/4" x 1" x 6' turtle deck stringer 4 pc. 3/4" x 1" x 3' seats, front and back Looking over the list I can pretty much see what goes where. And as the saying goes, "when life gives you lemons..." Anyway, the main question I have is "how" does the 1' x 1-3/8" x 2' side truss go? My guess is that it's for the front (most forward) vertical side truss and would go 1" width toward the side and 1-3/8" width toward the front. Am I correct in thinking this would stiffen up the front for the A65 and addresses the more direct torque on the fuselage vs. the Model A? Also, though I have seen that the gussets (in pictures) are laid on both the inside and outside of the fuselage sides, it would seem the inside ones would be in the way of the attachment points of top and bottom trusses (I.e.: top and bottom trusses not directly glued to the longerons because the gussets are in the way?). The inside gussets I have seen didn't seem to be cutout for this and were just rectangles like the outdside ones. This just seems structurally wrong...(am I right?). Third question...Are the less than 1" wide trusses laid even with the 1" longerons, i.e.: 1" width matches the 1" width of the longerons - or - are they shimmed and the narrower widths go perpendicular to the 1" width of the longerons. (Boy, I hope that's clear, it sure is hard to describe). As to where in hell AS&S got these dimensions from beats me but it's what I got. Paid far more than the "normal" price too for the privledge of having the wrong stuff - though at least it's wider and not thinner stock. Thanks, Stacy P.S. Mike L., I have no doubt I can do it...it's my ride out of here! :-) The missive's more about the kids and what they and the hospital do every single day rather than my own cheerleading. There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:00 PM PST US From: Edwin Johnson Subject: Pietenpol-List: long cross country in an Air Camper --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Edwin Johnson Hello Mark, > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" > > Anyone want to comment on the general usefulness of having elevator trim > in one's Piet? I've seen several kinds used, wehereas BHP didn't > specify. Is trim just generally unnecessary or futile in something as > light as a Piet? I know that the Murphy Maverick doesn't have it nor do This might depend on your use of the airplane. For example, if you are just going to do local and pattern work and never take the plane anywhere else, then trim would not be as useful since stick loads for landing and takeoff are rather light. However, in my opinion, if you are going to do any sort of cross country work or trips in the Pietenpol, then the trim is very necessary. The controls on the Piet are very light, so it's easy to hold the plane level. But folding a sectional with both hands, eating a snack, moving an object in the cockpit, or anything that requires both hands could possibly lead to a dangerous situation with the nose going either up or down and your trying to correct it while performing some other task. Consider the possibility of having to let go of everything while at a low altitude (do Piets ever get very high?) that suddenly started flying out the cockpit! If you look at the W&B with fuel burn from a nose tank, you will notice a considerable change in CG. From my experience it definitely isn't fun to have to hold any airplane level for a long period of time and leads to fatigue. So from both a safety and fatigue point of view, the trim is a much needed item. Now yaw is yet another area. As someone has already pointed out, most certified airplanes are built to be in trim (yaw) at cruise speed and some specific CG, probably around the center of the envelope. Ideally the Piet should be configured or trimmed with a rudder tab to allow the plane to fly straight with no rudder pressures at cruise speed. In climb, descent, or landings the pressures needed can easily be done without trim. But again, having to hold rudder pressure during cruise is a chore. I think Mike C. used a spring bungee type of elevator trim. Corky (the plane I've flown) used a simple rubber bungee cord tied from two points on the front of the back seat then around the stick. By moving the rubber cord up and down the stick the amount of pull on the stick was varied. Now that would only work on a plane that was initially nose heavy, but with full fuel in a nose tank that might probably be the case. Remember that this is only my opinion from having put quite a few hours on the plane. However, the danger and fatigue statements come from the instuctor side of me. :) Those urge me to want trim. ...Edwin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Edwin Johnson ....... elj@shreve.net ~ ~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~ ~ ~ ~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~ ~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~ ~ for there you have been, there you long ~ ~ to return." -- da Vinci ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:09 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com the CAD program they developed has a selection of many materials. 4130N was not on the default list, 4140N was... but in the notes section you can request any material you want. Seeing as how my parts were not to be welded I opted for the 4140. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com Wasn't there an issue of material that they used? Did they have carbon steel cold rolled or 4130 normmalized? Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com a few weeks back I was contacted by a Technical Writer from the Associated Press. He was writing a story on Emachineshop.com. Somehow he managed to come across my name and contacted me. He interviewed me in several emails. The article was published yesterday. He stopped short of mentioning "Pietenpol" but did say that they made parts for my 1929 era airplane. Neat story.... and great place to get lasercut and/or CNC'd parts http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmplstory&u/ap/20040818/ap_on_hi_te/online_manufacturing_6 DJ _ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:40 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Pietenpol-List: I'm gonna make some copies of the old BPA newsletters... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle in case anyone wants a set.... I'm going to Kinkos and have them copy my "copy of" the BPA newsletters. But I just realized that a few of you out there might also want a set. I'll be selling them on eBay for only $100 a set....hehehehe...no....wait....just kidding... Ok, seriously, I don't mind having some extras made if someone wants a set and will make it REAL easy for me. I'm very lazy about such things! So if you want to send whatever Kinkos charges for the copy job along with a pre-stamped mailer big enough to send them back to you in, I'll be glad to do it. I just called Kinkos and they estimated (for APPROX 250 dbl sided/3 hole pages) $35.18. DO NOT expect that price to be the final cost! That is ONLY an estimate..... I have no idea how many pages there are but whatever it is, you pay no more and no less than what they charge me and send me something to mail it back to you in....I'll be glad to include a copy of the receipt if you like.... Optionally, if someone has a cheaper way to get them copied, great! Maybe I can send them to you and YOU do it! Remember up above where I say I'm lazy???? :-) I can tell you that for that much money, I will not make any extra sets......but I would be glad to help you get your hands on the newsletters if I can do a bunch all at once. NOte that these are nowhere NEAR first generation copies but certainly usable and full of good stuff. Interested? Let me know OFFLINE ONLY PLEASE. In other words, please don't hit reply to THIS message....send it directly to my email account at: Jim in Plano..... ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:04 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: trim --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratil" Oscar How about a brief description of the trim system? Is it similar to Mikes? Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: trim > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > >Anyone want to comment on the general usefulness of having elevator trim > >in one's Piet? > > I haven't done any X-C flying in my Piet yet, but can tell you what my ferry > pilot told me about it after flying a bunch of hours in it. He said Corky > had really put a nifty trim setup on it, very useful and effective. I know > Mike Cuy's Piet also has trim and he uses it to good advantage too. > > My ferry pilot also said his leg got tired after a while in the air and > suggested rudder trim, but then again the rudder in this airplane is > installed exactly on centerline with no offset and it may be that a tad of > offset may eliminate that easier than a rudder trim mechanism or even a > bendable piece of metal on the trailing edge of the rudder. > > Mike C.? Steve E.? Chuck "Mr. America"? What say about trim? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:25 PM PST US From: KTS5TA6@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Associated Press and Emachineshop.com "Vegh said he found the software quick and easy to use." For those of you who haven't met DJ or know him (I've been to his house in Mesa, AZ twice) don't let the above line extracted from the AP article fool you. DJ is like a rocket scientist on computers... Sterling Brooks ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:38 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More important things --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 8/19/04 12:53:58 PM Central Daylight Time, Isablcorky@aol.com writes: << why don't we settle down and do some serious planning for next season. Maybe a Tour Texas, a Tour Ohio, a Cajun Tour(WOW) or better a big get together at Party Cove (Yeah). >> Hey !! I'm fueled up, and ready to go !! I like to just point the nose in some direction, and GO !! Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:32 PM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Pietenpol-List: Marking elipse for inst panel --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rick Holland Thanks right, just use a loop of string around two nails about 12-14" apart horizontally. Put your pencil in the loop and draw a half elipse matching the height and width of your inst panel. Rick Holland >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll bet there's also a way to do it with a circle of string and two nails..... Hmmm, a changing radius....pretty close to an elipse, right? ----- Original Message -----