---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/28/04: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:19 AM - Re: what, think ? (Clif Dawson) 2. 08:29 AM - Re: Grain of wood (Stacy Clark) 3. 08:54 AM - quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! (Gary W Meadows) 4. 01:28 PM - flop (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 5. 02:10 PM - Re: flop (DJ Vegh) 6. 03:37 PM - Re: airspeed (hjarrett) 7. 08:12 PM - Re: airspeed (Richard Navratil) 8. 08:15 PM - Re: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! (Richard Navratil) 9. 11:02 PM - Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 10. 11:05 PM - Re: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! (DJ Vegh) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:50 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: what, think ? Ha! Ha! Good one! Our forefathers did a lot of thinking for themselves. Some of the stuff they came up with puts our wildest thoughts to shame. Lee Valley tools has reprints of the yearbooks from the original Popular Mechanics, Known as "Shopnotes" ,1905 to 1930. Some of the stuff in these is astounding ( airplane stuff too ). http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page42563&category1,46096,46130&abspage1&ccurrency1&SID or http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page46096&category1&SID&ccurrency1 under "mechanics and metalwork" Don't archive this one either, It'll be Mike's little secret :-) Do not archive Subject: Pietenpol-List: what, think ? Gary-- what a great idea you have ! How did any Air Campers ever get built and flown when people used to have to use handwritten letters, stamps, and a long distance phone call ? Amazing. I'm going to build another Pietenpol someday but I'm waiting for the Fast-build, Quick Fly, Builder Assistance Program when the Pietenpol Family gets that all setup with their 51% rule kit Pietenpol coming out next year. Mike C. pleeeeeeassssse do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:11 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grain of wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stacy Clark" I talked to a local shop teacher just the other day about the same thing. He said it didn't make a difference which way the grain (end grain) went. What did make a difference he said was if the grain ended abruptly through the length of the piece. In other words, you should be able to follow a grain all the way through the length of a piece from one end to the other. If you have "aircraft grade" wood this should not be a problem. In my case all was OK. That being said, I laid my longerons with the end grain horizontal to the ground. In my thinking this allows the wood to flex in the "up/down" direction when the tail hits the ground verses laying them cross grain which in my opinion would disipate the energy to one constant and specific point somewhere along the longeron. A microscopic issue to be sure, considering the side trusses disipate the energy by design, but I think a valid point nonetheless. Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:55 AM PST US From: Gary W Meadows Subject: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! Wayne, There was a fellow a few years back who made parts for sale for the Piet and a few others. In pictures, they looked like very nice parts, but I never saw any in person. I guess he's gone now, his name was Steve something and the outfit was called Replicraft. I often considered buying some of his steel parts, but ended up cutting my own. He even sold fuselages and rib sets and quite a bit of other stuff. I don't know if there's a market or not. I did buy a very nice set of hubs from Ken Perkins and will get them laced into wheels when I get the rims together. For me, it's basically doing whatever is fun and interesting. I didn't want to mess with the hubs cause I ain't that great a welder and I'm not a machinist at all, so I jumped at the chance to buy a set of hubs. I may not make my engine mount either - we'll see. I know Mike Cuy farmed out a few projects on his own plane. But then, so did Orville and WIlbur, it ain't no thaing. Just have fun! If you haven't started yet, get some sticks and start building ribs - after 28-30 ribs, anything will seem like fun! Good luck with your project! Gary Meadows Spring, TX ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:52 PM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: flop are there plans anywhere for a flop or does everyone just make it the same size as the ailerons? Dennis E ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:10:49 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flop on my GN-1 I made mine go from the rear spar back see here: http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/01-26-04.htm DJ Vegh www.imagedv.com/aircamper ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Engelkenjohn To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: flop are there plans anywhere for a flop or does everyone just make it the same size as the ailerons? Dennis E ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:27 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed One thing I haven't heard anybody address is that the air coming into the leading edge of a wing DOES NOT approach from straight ahead. There is a strong upwash ahead of the wing and strong downwash behind it. As the angle of attack increases the stagnation point on the leading edge (the point where the air is hitting the airfoil straight on and splits with some going over and the rest going under) moves down. That is one very good reason you don't see so many planes with the air speed probe mounted on the front of the wing. You have to get the end of the tube well out in front of the leading edge to get straight in flow. If the flow is hitting the end of the probe at an angle you get a lower air speed indication. If you look at production test aircraft you will see really long booms sticking out in front with a gadget on the front that weathervanes into the air flow. This keeps the air going straight into the pitot tube so they can adjust the production pitot to have minimum error. With a boom it is pretty easy to optimize the pitot tube but the static port is still pretty much black magic. You have to get the pressure at the port to be the same as the free stream pressure in all attitudes. For us, that is a real pain. Using an open static port in the back of the instrument is probably a really BAD way to do it but if it's consistent it works. You may be stalling at 10 MPH different than what's indicated, but who cares if it always stalls at the same indicated speed? In this case you optimize for cruise accuracy and let the stall be off (but consistent). One BIG problem is with a passenger in front you should expect the airspeed to be different and each new shape passenger will change the ASI. In my Taylorcraft I can fly faster with the passenger window open and slower with the pilots window open. With both open I can't read the ASI so I'm not sure what is happening. ;-) Hank (At least the ASI says I'm faster and slower) J ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: airspeed Hey all, I have been having a problem with airspeed readings, the readings are way low. The main question is that I located my pitot tube thru the leading edge of the wing. I have been trying to adjust the angle of the tube but so far no improvement. I know the guage works because readings go up in decent. I have alinged the tube and bent it to be level at normal flight. My question is, could it be that that location of the tube is the cause? The tube extends out about 6" from the LE. I have a GPS and now also installed a secondary ASI from a ultralite till this is resolved. I have a spare guage and will also try changing it out. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:45 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed My tube extends at least 6" out from LE. I made some modfications this morning but was grounded in the morning by rain and heavy traffic from a head bangin rock concert in the area this aftrenoon. Will try again on Mon. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: hjarrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 5:36 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed One thing I haven't heard anybody address is that the air coming into the leading edge of a wing DOES NOT approach from straight ahead. There is a strong upwash ahead of the wing and strong downwash behind it. As the angle of attack increases the stagnation point on the leading edge (the point where the air is hitting the airfoil straight on and splits with some going over and the rest going under) moves down. That is one very good reason you don't see so many planes with the air speed probe mounted on the front of the wing. You have to get the end of the tube well out in front of the leading edge to get straight in flow. If the flow is hitting the end of the probe at an angle you get a lower air speed indication. If you look at production test aircraft you will see really long booms sticking out in front with a gadget on the front that weathervanes into the air flow. This keeps the air going straight into the pitot tube so they can adjust the production pitot to have minimum error. With a boom it is pretty easy to optimize the pitot tube but the static port is still pretty much black magic. You have to get the pressure at the port to be the same as the free stream pressure in all attitudes. For us, that is a real pain. Using an open static port in the back of the instrument is probably a really BAD way to do it but if it's consistent it works. You may be stalling at 10 MPH different than what's indicated, but who cares if it always stalls at the same indicated speed? In this case you optimize for cruise accuracy and let the stall be off (but consistent). One BIG problem is with a passenger in front you should expect the airspeed to be different and each new shape passenger will change the ASI. In my Taylorcraft I can fly faster with the passenger window open and slower with the pilots window open. With both open I can't read the ASI so I'm not sure what is happening. ;-) Hank (At least the ASI says I'm faster and slower) J ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: airspeed Hey all, I have been having a problem with airspeed readings, the readings are way low. The main question is that I located my pitot tube thru the leading edge of the wing. I have been trying to adjust the angle of the tube but so far no improvement. I know the guage works because readings go up in decent. I have alinged the tube and bent it to be level at normal flight. My question is, could it be that that location of the tube is the cause? The tube extends out about 6" from the LE. I have a GPS and now also installed a secondary ASI from a ultralite till this is resolved. I have a spare guage and will also try changing it out. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:20 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! Please, lets not get started on Replicraft again. We just did 4-5 days on copyrights. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary W Meadows To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! Wayne, There was a fellow a few years back who made parts for sale for the Piet and a few others. In pictures, they looked like very nice parts, but I never saw any in person. I guess he's gone now, his name was Steve something and the outfit was called Replicraft. I often considered buying some of his steel parts, but ended up cutting my own. He even sold fuselages and rib sets and quite a bit of other stuff. I don't know if there's a market or not. I did buy a very nice set of hubs from Ken Perkins and will get them laced into wheels when I get the rims together. For me, it's basically doing whatever is fun and interesting. I didn't want to mess with the hubs cause I ain't that great a welder and I'm not a machinist at all, so I jumped at the chance to buy a set of hubs. I may not make my engine mount either - we'll see. I know Mike Cuy farmed out a few projects on his own plane. But then, so did Orville and WIlbur, it ain't no thaing. Just have fun! If you haven't started yet, get some sticks and start building ribs - after 28-30 ribs, anything will seem like fun! Good luck with your project! Gary Meadows Spring, TX ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:54 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... All, I am laying out the horizontal stabilizer at the present moment. I am finding that the AS&S kit I received (Modernized Pietenpol) has various errors in wood lengths and widths of the supplied wood. Long story short, the 1/2" x 3/4" diagonal braces supplied were only 4' long. As such, the diagonals do not (cannot) butt up against each other. Am I stuck and have to get longer lengths or can I do one of the following (see image)...If so, which is the best choice and why? Thanks, Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:35 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! ahhhh Replicraft! they ran off with $1300 of mine. Fortunatley I paid with my Mastercard and they ended up reversing the charge but the process was long and painful. I don't understand why Steve from Replicraft did such a thing. The quality of his parts were 110% top notch. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 8:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! Please, lets not get started on Replicraft again. We just did 4-5 days on copyrights. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary W Meadows To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: quick- build Pietenpol kit in 2005 ! Wayne, There was a fellow a few years back who made parts for sale for the Piet and a few others. In pictures, they looked like very nice parts, but I never saw any in person. I guess he's gone now, his name was Steve something and the outfit was called Replicraft. I often considered buying some of his steel parts, but ended up cutting my own. He even sold fuselages and rib sets and quite a bit of other stuff. I don't know if there's a market or not. I did buy a very nice set of hubs from Ken Perkins and will get them laced into wheels when I get the rims together. For me, it's basically doing whatever is fun and interesting. I didn't want to mess with the hubs cause I ain't that great a welder and I'm not a machinist at all, so I jumped at the chance to buy a set of hubs. I may not make my engine mount either - we'll see. I know Mike Cuy farmed out a few projects on his own plane. But then, so did Orville and WIlbur, it ain't no thaing. Just have fun! If you haven't started yet, get some sticks and start building ribs - after 28-30 ribs, anything will seem like fun! Good luck with your project! Gary Meadows Spring, TX