---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/29/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Clif Dawson) 2. 04:31 AM - Re: Grain of wood (Clif Dawson) 3. 06:34 AM - Sprung gear (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 4. 06:49 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (walt evans) 5. 10:30 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 6. 10:31 AM - Re: Grain of wood (Stacy Clark) 7. 10:32 AM - Re: Sprung gear (Stacy Clark) 8. 10:37 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 9. 10:46 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Mike Luther) 10. 11:09 AM - Re: Sprung gear (Isablcorky@aol.com) 11. 11:16 AM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Isablcorky@aol.com) 12. 02:32 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 13. 02:33 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 14. 02:37 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (DJ Vegh) 15. 11:35 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (Clif Dawson) 16. 11:50 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (Stacy Clark) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:33 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... I'd go with #2, the end blocks, and cover it all with extended gussets. The center is where the fuselage and fin mounting takes place so I'd prefer that to be as original as possible. I made my tail assy from the flier and glider manual before obtaining the plans from Don so it's quite different. Now if my Wicks package would get here I could maybe start on the landing gear. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Stacy Clark To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:02 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... All, I am laying out the horizontal stabilizer at the present moment. I am finding that the AS&S kit I received (Modernized Pietenpol) has various errors in wood lengths and widths of the supplied wood. Long story short, the 1/2" x 3/4" diagonal braces supplied were only 4' long. As such, the diagonals do not (cannot) butt up against each other. Am I stuck and have to get longer lengths or can I do one of the following (see image)...If so, which is the best choice and why? Thanks, Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:50 AM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grain of wood <000701c48d13$b782bc70$69aaa1d1@DJQ7LV21> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson It will only make a difference in the lower longerons and only because they will take bending more easily. The bend from the firewall rearward is fairly pronounced. The bends to bring the sides together at the tailpost are quite gentle in comparison. Make sure all four have the grain oriented the same so that all four will bend equally when bending the sides together. It appears you have done this already. The fuselage is a bridge truss so all the triangulations take a portion of the load. That won't change with grain orientation as you're dealing with compression and tension loads parallel to the longerons. Clif > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stacy Clark" > > I talked to a local shop teacher just the other day about the same thing. > He said it didn't make a difference which way the grain (end grain) went. > What did make a difference he said was if the grain ended abruptly through > the length of the piece. In other words, you should be able to follow a > grain all the way through the length of a piece from one end to the other. > If you have "aircraft grade" wood this should not be a problem. In my case > all was OK. > > That being said, I laid my longerons with the end grain horizontal to the > ground. In my thinking this allows the wood to flex in the "up/down" > direction when the tail hits the ground verses laying them cross grain which > in my opinion would disipate the energy to one constant and specific point > somewhere along the longeron. A microscopic issue to be sure, considering > the side trusses disipate the energy by design, but I think a valid point > nonetheless. > > Stacy > > There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that > is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:36 AM PST US ETAsAhQUsIWZFLpMyo+D7XwJmyNSvW5ArQIUVY/uMiQp7kw4fdEAMu3ikR0Sy8Y= From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sprung gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Stacy: I'm building a genuine Model A Piet from the 33 plans with the J-3 style gear as shown in the plans. My entire landing gear weight ( Hager axels, brakes. V's, shock struts, ATV wheels and tires ) weigh 48 lbs. I couldn't be happier about that. Greg Cardinal recently noted his wire wheel landing gear weigh 60 lbs. I placed my lower longeron end grain horizontal thinking that it may be slightly easier to make the bow shape, then placed the upper longeron end grain vertically to counter any slight weakness that may occur from having the lower grain horizontally--although I'm sure there is no difference.--just something I had in my head. I bought a wood kit from Western Ac. Sup. before he retired. All sizes and lengths were perfect. All rabbiting of tail wood was done. I think that was the closest thing to a quick build Piet kit that we will ever see. I built my landing gear 2 years ago. The only time it was ever on the fus. was when the fus. was on saw horses. Friday after the paint dried I put the gear on, removed the saw horses and rolled it out of the garage for the first time! In the big picture thats really nothing, but for the first time since I cut wood in 1999 it looks like an airplane.--except for the cement block tied to he tail to keep it from falling on its nose. ( the A is on it ) Leon S. Nickerson Ks. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:20 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy, You may want to look ahead and figure out where your hinges are going to be. I made my stabilizer to plans and found that a couple of the hinges were a dog to get hardware into. Where a little movement one way or the other would have been easier. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Stacy Clark To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... All, I am laying out the horizontal stabilizer at the present moment. I am finding that the AS&S kit I received (Modernized Pietenpol) has various errors in wood lengths and widths of the supplied wood. Long story short, the 1/2" x 3/4" diagonal braces supplied were only 4' long. As such, the diagonals do not (cannot) butt up against each other. Am I stuck and have to get longer lengths or can I do one of the following (see image)...If so, which is the best choice and why? Thanks, Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:48 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Clif, That's the one I'm leaning toward as well. It also brings the diagonals further away from the stringers that are next to the points where the diagonals meet the center beam -- meaning normal sized gusset (like the plans). On the ends the gaps are short enough that the regular end gusset should cover the blocks and diagonals. I also just realized doing it that way "may" provide a backer for the outside hinge (i.e.: longer mounting bolts)...hmmm. If that's possible it'll also further stabilze the diagonals too (making them "think" they're at the end). My only concern is the extra weight being out on the end (maybe 10 oz total) causing flutter...but I know that's just my imagination working overtime. But in any case you don't think it's something I'd regret later on? Something I could "live" with in other words? :-) Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:19 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grain of wood --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stacy Clark" Yep, just the way I have it. Stacy Do not archive There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:47 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sprung gear --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stacy Clark" Leon, That's the route I'm taking as well. "ATV" tires huh? Sounds like something I need up here in the bush :-) Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:08 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Walt, See the post I just sent to Clif under this thread. Your comment got me to thinking about the end hinge -- thanks! Gheez I hope I'm right. I won't know until I "fluff and buff" and make my way over to the hanger in a few minutes. I'll let you know. Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:04 AM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy: I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. Mike L. Stacy Clark wrote: > All, I am laying out the horizontal stabilizer at the present moment. > I am finding that the AS&S kit I received (Modernized Pietenpol) has > various errors in wood lengths and widths of the supplied wood. Long > story short, the 1/2" x 3/4" diagonal braces supplied were only 4' > long. As such, the diagonals do not (cannot) butt up against each > other. Am I stuck and have to get longer lengths or can I do one of > the following (see image)...If so, which is the best choice and > why? Thanks,Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in > the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:44 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sprung gear Leon, Your message of the 28th, landing gear weights was informative. I weighed my split gear this morning. Vs,shock struts, strut divider, wheels, tires, brakes and axles total 49 lbs. Does not include bolts, washers and nuts. Corky in La ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:19 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Pieters, May I suggest: When beginning to build the tail feathers cut your spars and match up. Locate and mark hinge positions. Countersink your hinges, bolt down, trim for clevis. I'm assuming you will use Kapler's alum hinges. Then: proceed to built your feathers. Sure makes it easier to have all the hinges in place when you finish all the other work. YKW ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:12 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Mike, Eyebolts huh? Not a bad idea -- never thought of that. Do you have some type of Teflon washer in between them and as a through-tube as well? Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:30 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Corky, Good idea, thanks. Stacy Do not archive There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:23 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges be very creful with the AN43 eyebolt style hinges. If you do not secure them so that they can not rotate in the hole you could get a locked up control surface in flight. A good way to keep them from rotating is to use the drilled shank version with a castle nut. instead of putting a cotter pin on it, use a short length of music wire that has a round loop bent into one end. Slide it through the shank and use a wood screw through the loop and screw it into lead or trailing edge spar. It is only necessary to secure one side of the hinge. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Luther To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy: I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. Mike L. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:47 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges <41320CA9.5FE55F5E@gci.net> <014a01c48e10$a1b9b620$0100a8c0@Desktop> Looking at the plans again it appears to me that the brace interferes with the hinge bolts anyway. The block does not have to be very thick, 1/4" will work fine. If you do decide to go the eyebolt route the block will be an advantage as the shank doesn't have to go through the angled brace. It will be in the middle of the block. Also why would there be much more weight at the end? The bolt or bolts, depending on the hinge used are only going to be an extra 1/4" long and the block weighs nothing. Another also, the brace wires attach half way between the two outer hinges ( 11" in from the tip ). I wish I'd thought of Corky's idea of mounting the hinges beforehand. Getting nuts down between the gussets will be fun ( crawdads must be brain food! ). :-) The yellow Piet in the "Victoria Piets" file on Mykitplane has eyebolts and is old enough to have been rebuilt and recovered a number of years ago. No mention of eyebolt or flight problems. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges be very creful with the AN43 eyebolt style hinges. If you do not secure them so that they can not rotate in the hole you could get a locked up control surface in flight. A good way to keep them from rotating is to use the drilled shank version with a castle nut. instead of putting a cotter pin on it, use a short length of music wire that has a round loop bent into one end. Slide it through the shank and use a wood screw through the loop and screw it into lead or trailing edge spar. It is only necessary to secure one side of the hinge. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Luther To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy: I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. Mike L. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:50 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges Clif, Take a look at my reply to Peter Johnson. (pics) Do not archive There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark