---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/30/04: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:09 AM - Fw: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... (Stacy Clark) 2. 06:46 AM - Atv wheels (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 3. 10:34 AM - the election and TFR's (Michael D Cuy) 4. 11:03 AM - Re: the election and TFR's (Textor, Jack) 5. 05:38 PM - How many ounces does it take (Andimaxd@aol.com) 6. 05:45 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (DJ Vegh) 7. 05:53 PM - Looking for Walt Evans () 8. 05:55 PM - Re: How many ounces does it take (Jack Phillips) 9. 06:56 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (walt evans) 10. 06:56 PM - Re: How many ounces does it take (walt evans) 11. 07:18 PM - Re: lift strut fittings (Javier Cruz) 12. 07:58 PM - Re: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges (Mike Luther) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:45 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... From: Stacy Clark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Peter, The problem I have is that the wood supplied by AS&S was too short for the swept stab (two 1/2" x 3/4" x 48"). Anyway, this is the solution I came up with (attached jpg's). Have no idea whether my "best guessing" is right, but it looks like it disipates the energy. In the end I'll probably go back to "as plans" as I discovered tonight that I'm missing 1" x 1" of suffcient lengths for the elevators. Which means that as I "have to" order those I might as well order the stuff for the diagonals as well. (The kit originally had two 1" by's of sufficient length but they had to be sacrificed for the #6 side trusses as their "supplied" trusses were all 36" long, i.e.: too short for #6. BTW, had to rip all those down to 7/8" width [nos. 2 thru 6]). Word of advise to all that are thinking of going through AS&S for their spruce kit (3 pc. wing)...don't! If I had to do it over again I would have ordered the standard Piet with one-piece and modified it to three piece. The way you must buy it from AS&S with 3-pc wing is with their "Modernized Pietenpol" only. They clipped me for about $300.00 extra bucks plus I had to eat the material for the wing ribs which I already had pre-built (maybe I'll build some doll houses). And of course the added bonus of having to ship it up here in the Alaskan bush. ...Sorry to vent. (Sill working with, and achieving the impossible...) :-) Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:56 AM PST US ETAtAhUAwsSDgttgnXHlFbQfl7Xb8kOKEoICFGIp60Owsnd4Fth+KJVwdLtLHSRJ From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Atv wheels --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Stacy : I bought a set of atv tundra tires from a place called Flying K Ent. Caldwell Id. They make (made ? ) a plane called Sky Raider. I wish I had bought several pairs. The owner of Flying K was killed a couple of years ago and I don't know if they are still in business. They were the only source of these tires that I new of and I never tied to figure who there vendor was. They should last a long time if you land on grass all the time, but I think paved runways will ware them out in a hurry. They sure look good in the Piet. Corky: The split gear is the only way to go if you want to keep the weight down. Originally I was going to use the Jenny gear, but after reading in the old news letters that the wire wheels weigh up t 18 lbs each alone, then there is the massive axel to go with them, I went the other way. I am bound and determined to stick with the anemic Ford A, so weight savings was crucial. I also dumped the brass-copper radiator ( 19 lbs ) for a VW Golf radiator at 4 lbs. I sure hope it all pays dividends in the future. Leon S. in Ks. 6 years into a 2 year project. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:07 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: the election and TFR's For those of you actively flying, it might be a good idea to check to see if President Bush is in your area. I found this site on the FAA's web page that shows the active and upcoming TFR's coming to a town by you. I was at an airshow in Toledo this past weekend and after the Thunderbirds landed, Air Force One landed about 45 minutes later. Luckily, I drove to the show. http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr/jsp/list.jsp Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: the election and TFR's From: "Textor, Jack" Good idea Mike, we have seen a lot of activity here in the Des Moines area. I get automatic emails from AOPA. Jack Textor Do not archive For those of you actively flying, it might be a good idea to check to see if President Bush is in your area. I found this site on the FAA's web page that shows the active and upcoming TFR's coming to a town by you. I was at an airshow in Toledo this past weekend and after the Thunderbirds landed, Air Force One landed about 45 minutes later. Luckily, I drove to the show. http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr/jsp/list. jsp Mike C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:53 PM PST US From: Andimaxd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: How many ounces does it take Group, I would like some opinions from the "older wiser ones" (more experienced) who have covered a Piet or two. My thinking ,right now, is to cover the wing and tail with medium weight (2.8 oz.) and the fuselage with light weight (1.7 oz.). The wing does the work, so I thought it needed to be a heavier grade, and then cover the body with something light, as it does not take the same abuse? Is it necessary to even use medium weight at all? If it is, should I just use medium weight throughout? Or, if I want to use medium and light weight, can you put medium weight fabric on the top of the wing and utilize light weight on the bottom side? The difference in cost between the two is minimal. Is there a major difference in weight between the two after covering and painting? I have been told that the lighter fabric is easier to work with than the medium and heavy weights. The only reason I think I would want heavier fabric on the tail would be for landing in stalks and heavy weeds on unimproved landing sites. Having never done this, I feel like I am delving into the dark sciences a little. I plan on using uncertified dacron and dope, with as few coat as is practical. I do not want a glass finish, I want the weave to show and would like four coats, maximum, I think. I try not to bother the group with trivial questions; please bare with me, and forgive my ignorance in this matter. Thanks in advance, Max L. Davis Arlington, TX. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:41 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges >>The yellow Piet in the "Victoria Piets" file on Mykitplane has eyebolts and is old enough to have been rebuilt and recovered a number of years ago. No mention of eyebolt or flight problems. That doesn't mean the eyebolts will never rotate. It takes an extra 5 minutes to fix it and the consequences of a locked control surface could be fatal. Some things can be left to fate but respectfully, I disagree and this is not one those things. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges Looking at the plans again it appears to me that the brace interferes with the hinge bolts anyway. The block does not have to be very thick, 1/4" will work fine. If you do decide to go the eyebolt route the block will be an advantage as the shank doesn't have to go through the angled brace. It will be in the middle of the block. Also why would there be much more weight at the end? The bolt or bolts, depending on the hinge used are only going to be an extra 1/4" long and the block weighs nothing. Another also, the brace wires attach half way between the two outer hinges ( 11" in from the tip ). I wish I'd thought of Corky's idea of mounting the hinges beforehand. Getting nuts down between the gussets will be fun ( crawdads must be brain food! ). :-) Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges be very creful with the AN43 eyebolt style hinges. If you do not secure them so that they can not rotate in the hole you could get a locked up control surface in flight. A good way to keep them from rotating is to use the drilled shank version with a castle nut. instead of putting a cotter pin on it, use a short length of music wire that has a round loop bent into one end. Slide it through the shank and use a wood screw through the loop and screw it into lead or trailing edge spar. It is only necessary to secure one side of the hinge. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Luther To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy: I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. Mike L. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Looking for Walt Evans Walt Evans, Please contact me offline. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:31 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: How many ounces does it take Hi Max, I had the same questions, so when I went to the PolyFiber class at SNF last year, I asked them. They strongly recommended against using the light fabric for anything but an ultralight. While it is strong enough for a Piet, they said it would balloon up too much between the ribs and the stringers. Of course, I didn't ask about what you are suggesting, but they could have recommended covering the fuselage with the light stuff if that is acceptable. So I followed their advice and used medium weight throughout. it is tough stuff, and can certainly withstand a lot of abuse from finger-pokin' onlookers. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andimaxd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: How many ounces does it take Group, I would like some opinions from the "older wiser ones" (more experienced) who have covered a Piet or two. My thinking ,right now, is to cover the wing and tail with medium weight (2.8 oz.) and the fuselage with light weight (1.7 oz.). The wing does the work, so I thought it needed to be a heavier grade, and then cover the body with something light, as it does not take the same abuse? Is it necessary to even use medium weight at all? If it is, should I just use medium weight throughout? Or, if I want to use medium and light weight, can you put medium weight fabric on the top of the wing and utilize light weight on the bottom side? The difference in cost between the two is minimal. Is there a major difference in weight between the two after covering and painting? I have been told that the lighter fabric is easier to work with than the medium and heavy weights. The only reason I think I would want heavier fabric on the tail would be for landing in stalks and heavy weeds on unimproved landing sites. Having never done this, I feel like I am delving into the dark sciences a little. I plan on using uncertified dacron and dope, with as few coat as is practical. I do not want a glass finish, I want the weave to show and would like four coats, maximum, I think. I try not to bother the group with trivial questions; please bare with me, and forgive my ignorance in this matter. Thanks in advance, Max L. Davis Arlington, TX. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:07 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges When I was toying with the idea of using the eyebolts, my mentor brought up the issue of them rotating. So I went with hinges that looked original. I do kind of like the hinges that are just a strap of steel with the ends bent at a 90. Both hinges together with the hinge pin thru look like a rectangle. Very clean looking. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges >>The yellow Piet in the "Victoria Piets" file on Mykitplane has eyebolts and is old enough to have been rebuilt and recovered a number of years ago. No mention of eyebolt or flight problems. That doesn't mean the eyebolts will never rotate. It takes an extra 5 minutes to fix it and the consequences of a locked control surface could be fatal. Some things can be left to fate but respectfully, I disagree and this is not one those things. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Clif Dawson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges Looking at the plans again it appears to me that the brace interferes with the hinge bolts anyway. The block does not have to be very thick, 1/4" will work fine. If you do decide to go the eyebolt route the block will be an advantage as the shank doesn't have to go through the angled brace. It will be in the middle of the block. Also why would there be much more weight at the end? The bolt or bolts, depending on the hinge used are only going to be an extra 1/4" long and the block weighs nothing. Another also, the brace wires attach half way between the two outer hinges ( 11" in from the tip ). I wish I'd thought of Corky's idea of mounting the hinges beforehand. Getting nuts down between the gussets will be fun ( crawdads must be brain food! ). :-) Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges be very creful with the AN43 eyebolt style hinges. If you do not secure them so that they can not rotate in the hole you could get a locked up control surface in flight. A good way to keep them from rotating is to use the drilled shank version with a castle nut. instead of putting a cotter pin on it, use a short length of music wire that has a round loop bent into one end. Slide it through the shank and use a wood screw through the loop and screw it into lead or trailing edge spar. It is only necessary to secure one side of the hinge. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Luther To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. Diagonals... Stacy: I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. Mike L. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:07 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How many ounces does it take Max, Since the max wing loading and max speed far surpass the Piet, I used the light fabric. It was the uncertified stuff from AS&S, at about $3.10 per running yard of 62 inches wide. I worked out perfectly. Just keep in mind that the thicker fabric holds more paint/dope. My final empty weight was 595#. And nothing flew off yet! But then again I don't have any rough terrain/stalks to deal with. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Andimaxd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 8:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How many ounces does it take Group, I would like some opinions from the "older wiser ones" (more experienced) who have covered a Piet or two. My thinking ,right now, is to cover the wing and tail with medium weight (2.8 oz.) and the fuselage with light weight (1.7 oz.). The wing does the work, so I thought it needed to be a heavier grade, and then cover the body with something light, as it does not take the same abuse? Is it necessary to even use medium weight at all? If it is, should I just use medium weight throughout? Or, if I want to use medium and light weight, can you put medium weight fabric on the top of the wing and utilize light weight on the bottom side? The difference in cost between the two is minimal. Is there a major difference in weight between the two after covering and painting? I have been told that the lighter fabric is easier to work with than the medium and heavy weights. The only reason I think I would want heavier fabric on the tail would be for landing in stalks and heavy weeds on unimproved landing sites. Having never done this, I feel like I am delving into the dark sciences a little. I plan on using uncertified dacron and dope, with as few coat as is practical. I do not want a glass finish, I want the weave to show and would like four coats, maximum, I think. I try not to bother the group with trivial questions; please bare with me, and forgive my ignorance in this matter. Thanks in advance, Max L. Davis Arlington, TX. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:24 PM PST US From: Javier Cruz Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: lift strut fittings Hi Piets Hi Dennis The original plans are for one piece wing, use the suplemental center seccion so you can get the center point of the semi wing (not the spar), with this and with the new fittings (long fuselage) the fittings are inline with the flying struts, double check both ,the one wing plans and the 3 pieces wing for it, I think that I made on the same way that Corky.,, Javier Cruz ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:19 PM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab - AN43 eyebolt hinges <41320CA9.5FE55F5E@gci.net> <014a01c48e10$a1b9b620$0100a8c0@Desktop> DJ Vegh: Thanks for the advice and your concern for my safety. I will gladly use your idea. Now is the perfect time for me to do as you suggest, cause I am ready for final inspection of the wings. Should be ready for fuselage and tailfeather inspection within a month. Mike L. DJ Vegh wrote: > be very creful with the AN43 eyebolt style hinges. If you do not > secure them so that they can not rotate in the hole you could get a > locked up control surface in flight. A good way to keep them from > rotating is to use the drilled shank version with a castle nut. > instead of putting a cotter pin on it, use a short length of music > wire that has a round loop bent into one end. Slide it through the > shank and use a wood screw through the loop and screw it into lead or > trailing edge spar. It is only necessary to secure one side of the > hinge. DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Luther > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:04 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Need Help on Horizontal Stab. > Diagonals... > Stacy: > > I read your E-mail and went downstairs to take a look at my > uncovered stab. Then I came back upstairs and read Clif > Dawson's reply. Then I went back downstairs to take another > look at my stab. I would go with #4. Cause #2 would cause > interference with my elevator hinges and # 4 has half as > many pieces to deal with. Also, I used the GN-1 idea for > elevator hinges instead of the Piet idea for hinges. The > Piet elevator hinges are more original, but the GN-1 > hinges(Eye-bolts) can be purchased thru AS&S. > > Mike L. >