---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/05/04: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:48 AM - Re: copyright SNAFU (Richard Carden) 2. 10:10 AM - New product announcement: affordable VG's (Land Shorter) 3. 12:00 PM - Re: New product announcement: affordable VG's (Isablcorky@aol.com) 4. 02:34 PM - Two Air Camper projects for sale (N321TX@wmconnect.com) 5. 03:46 PM - Pietenpol building practices (Ted Brousseau) 6. 04:20 PM - Re: Pietenpol building practices (Gordon Bowen) 7. 04:42 PM - Re: New product announcement: affordable VG's (Land Shorter) 8. 05:32 PM - Re: Pietenpol building practices (Richard Navratil) 9. 07:44 PM - Re: copyright SNAFU (Mike Luther) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:05 AM PST US From: Richard Carden Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: copyright SNAFU --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden I'm with Rick . . . it doesn't make any sense at all to me to be so secretive about contents of the back issues of the newsletter. After all, it's the purpose of the newsletter, and this website, to exchange information for the mutual benefit of builders? Sombody's got a really screwy idea of proprietary rights. It's one thing to copy copyrighted material; it's quite another to copy material that's already in the public domain. If there's anybody out there who has copies of newsletters that they'd let me read (any copy for my own enlightenment) I'd be happy to pay postage and handling both ways, and put up some kind of security deposit for safe return. I'm not interested in pirating material for resale . . . I'd just like to have the benefit of the experience and thinking of others. Dick Carden ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:06 AM PST US From: Land Shorter Subject: Pietenpol-List: New product announcement: affordable VG's piper-list@matronics.com, pitts-list@matronics.com, rocket-list@matronics.com, rv-list@matronics.com, rv3-list@matronics.com, rv4-list@matronics.com, rv6-list@matronics.com, rv7-list@matronics.com 1.00 SORTED_RECIPS Recipient list is sorted by address Hey folks, I double checked and Matt Dralle's earlier post says it's OK to post about new aviation products as long as the message doesn't come off as having a "flavor" of "traditional spam". Don't worry I'm not going to try to sell you anything that supposedly makes any of your body parts larger (or smaller) and this product is directly aviation related :) I'm just an airplane builder, owner, pilot, and aviation nut who wants to tell you where you can find more information about a great new product. I've been selling kits of vortex generators (VG's) for only $95 and my customers are telling me they really like the performance gains they're seeing. VG's are great for reducing stall speeds and allow you to land slower, shorter, and safer. I invite you to check out my site at www.landshorter.com and see what you think. My VG's can be quickly installed for testing using removable double-stick tape and come with a 100% money-back guarantee so why not try them out on your plane? You'll be really glad you did :) Thanks and let's keep 'em flying! Joa Harrison The VG Guy www.landshorter.com 1-877-272-1414 (toll free) --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:00:23 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New product announcement: affordable VG's VG Guy, Would like more info on your devices as I'm beginning to put my Piet wings together Isablcorky ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:48 PM PST US From: N321TX@wmconnect.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Two Air Camper projects for sale I'm planning on putting my Pietenpol project AND my GN-1 project on Ebay the middle of this month. Prior to doing that, FOR POTENTIAL BUYERS ONLY, I'm willing to snail-mail a picture CD to anyone who would like to see these project Air Campers. This IS NOT an attempt to solicit bids in advance of, or in lieu of placing these projects on Ebay. I am only attempting to get pictures into the hands of qualified and interested parties in a timely fashion so that folks can have enough time to ponder a purchase. The projects will be listed separately and I anticipate starting the bids at $20 with NO RESERVE. The winning Ebay bidder will have to arrange to pick up the Pietenpol or GN-1 in Central Texas, most likely at Abilene Regional Airport. Both projects are on gear legs and can easily be rolled up on a flatbed trailer. The wings for the Pietenpol need to be pampered and I would recommend hauling them on a trailer similar to a trailer I designed for hauling both a fuselage and wings. (I can send pictures of my trailer *** NOT FOR SALE *** so you can have an idea of how I managed to haul airplanes and the wings across the USA for the last 15 years.) Feel free to copy my trailer design. It safely hauls the wings without a lot of risk to fabric or structure. The Pietenpol (N1195P) was built by Bob Linton of Mineral Bluff, Georgia. His original ad is still on Grant's website, having been posted a couple of years ago. Mr. Linton advised in the ad that his Pietenpol had never been flown but had been through the FSDO process and had an airworthiness certificate. I bought this airplane in October of this year. When I got it home and began doing an annual inspection, it became evident that it was necessary to cut all the fabric off of the fuselage for several reasons. I found that Mr. Linton had not installed gussets inside the fuselage as per plans and there were serious rust issues with metal parts that he never bothered to prime or paint. Also, there are some wood-delamination issues with the plywood panels on the bottom of the fuselage. One wing also has been stripped of fabric and we found some bare-metal parts covered with surface rust inside the wing, as well as the improper use of pal-nuts in place of stop-nuts and a faulty repair to a rib. (The rib is OK, it's just needs to be repaired according to recognized methods. The rib appears to have been broken by a hailstone.) The engine was advertised as having only 5 hours SMOH. It too was in bad need of repair after I removed a cylinder and found evidence of a slipshod overhaul. The engine however will not be sold with the rest of the airplane because I have spent a small fortune having the case rebuilt at DIVCO, new $500 camshaft, crankshaft and new bearings, not to mention other $$$ being spent to rebuild the engine. As a result, I'll have a Continental engine out of the deal that looks as pristine as the day it left the factory. The GN-1 project was purchased in March from D.J. Vegh. You can find info on through D.J.s website (and while you are on D.J.s website, send him a donation, as I have done for use of his really, really informative and helpful website...) Further details about these projects can be obtained by e-mailing me at; STERLING@PGRB.COM or through N321TX@wmconnect.com. I can begin sending picture CDs on 9-8. I'll send out a very detailed description of N1195P as best as I can honestly describe it. IS IT REPAIRABLE? In my opinion yes, I just am in a rush to get airborne and I don't have a lot of free time due to several circumstances at the present time. I'm trying to get my 85 year old dad flying in an open cockpit airplane for a few more adventures before he is unable to climb out of a chair. My dad has been fighting a battle with colon cancer and now liver cancer, and we have many old Army Air Corp bases to visit around here before the sun sets on his pilot's log book. Thats why I'm in a big rush and can't keep these Air Camper projects. Thanks, Sterling Brooks ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:16 PM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol building practices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" Hello fellow Pieters, I am sitting here in SW Florida, hunkered down while Frances circles us (thankfully), catching up on my tardy reading of email from the last month. ATIS said the airport just closed until the winds die down. I am listening to my neighbor's sailboat with its self-UNfurling jib self destruct in the wind. You might wonder at this point what this has to do with a Pietenpol. I was going to fly up to Brodhead and OSH this year until I got grounded by the family since my oldest twin daughter was going to have here own twins. I had 3 weeks of vacation time to spend locally so I volunteered to be a test pilot for two new Pietenpol GN-1s. I flew over 55 hours during this time. The biggest thing I learned is what we already know. We are totally governed by Murphy's Law. What does this have to do with a Piet? Anything that can go wrong will. If you look at a part and say to yourself, "Self, as long as no one bumps it, or pushes too hard, or stands on it (you fill in the blank - there are lots of them)," I can guarantee that you/someone will. What you have to do is build everything to counter anything that can go wrong. That doesn't mean add 50 pounds in the form of armour. Bernie did an awful lot of thinking for us. He has covered most things. Make sure you don't change the plans and end up weakening something. This is especially true in the important areas. Some of the obvious important areas are motor mounts, landing gear and wing attachments. Some of the less obvious areas, that are sooo important, are the controls. Make sure the aileron, rudder and elevator controls are free and bullet proof. Enough generalities and to the point. I was flying along in my normal mode, fat dumb and happy, when the rear aileron of the right wing started flapping at me (now you finally know why the hurricane reminded me to write this). The rear spar was flipping up and down about 6" and my first thought was it broke. Then I noticed the left wing was doing the same thing and the F work came out. I immediately reduced power and the Flutter quit. I then noticed that I had NO ailerons. Complete side to side stick movement did nothing. Fortunately, I usually fly with using the rudders to lift the wing and the crosswind landing was not an issue. What was the cause and how could this have been prevented? On a GN-1 the aileron cables sneak out along the floor from the bottom of the passenger control stick to the fuselage side and then turn around a pulley 90 degrees upward to the wing. The pulley bracket in this case was held to the fuselage side with one bolt. The bolt allowed the pulley to pivot upwards causing a loss of all tension. The owner had also mentioned that he found the pulley bracket bent and he supposed that someone had gotten into the passenger compartment while parked at a Memorial Day event. I now suspect that a thunderstorm blew through while it was parked outside and the wind force on the ailerons bent the bracket. I designed, and the owner installed, a simple metal gusset to secure the other end of the pulley bolt and that eliminated the possibility of both the bending and pivoting of the pulley bracket. My purpose for writing this is to tell you that finding out about these things in the air is not the place to learn. Try to anticipate the huge forces that will be put on some of these parts and prepare ahead of time. You can rest assured that the Pietenpol I am now building will have all of these things reviewed in a different light because of my experience learned testing these two planes. Remember, experience is something you get right after you need it. Ted Brousseau Naples, Florida ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:19 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol building practices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Ted, Thanks for sharing your tips. My elder building partner (70+ something but acts 30) and I will be putting back together N-1033B, after a little mishap in a Missouri corn field a few years ago. We're doing this work this winter in Palatka FL. I get to be the retest pilot, unless we can find some other fool. Any other little ditties you've discovered are sincerely appreciated by my wife and grown kids, due to the meager life insurance policy on yours truely. Gordon Bowen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol building practices > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > Hello fellow Pieters, > > I am sitting here in SW Florida, hunkered down while Frances circles us > (thankfully), catching up on my tardy reading of email from the last month. > ATIS said the airport just closed until the winds die down. I am listening > to my neighbor's sailboat with its self-UNfurling jib self destruct in the > wind. You might wonder at this point what this has to do with a Pietenpol. > > I was going to fly up to Brodhead and OSH this year until I got grounded by > the family since my oldest twin daughter was going to have here own twins. > I had 3 weeks of vacation time to spend locally so I volunteered to be a > test pilot for two new Pietenpol GN-1s. I flew over 55 hours during this > time. The biggest thing I learned is what we already know. We are totally > governed by Murphy's Law. > > What does this have to do with a Piet? Anything that can go wrong will. If > you look at a part and say to yourself, "Self, as long as no one bumps it, > or pushes too hard, or stands on it (you fill in the blank - there are lots > of them)," I can guarantee that you/someone will. What you have to do is > build everything to counter anything that can go wrong. That doesn't mean > add 50 pounds in the form of armour. Bernie did an awful lot of thinking > for us. He has covered most things. Make sure you don't change the plans > and end up weakening something. This is especially true in the important > areas. Some of the obvious important areas are motor mounts, landing gear > and wing attachments. Some of the less obvious areas, that are sooo > important, are the controls. Make sure the aileron, rudder and elevator > controls are free and bullet proof. > > Enough generalities and to the point. I was flying along in my normal mode, > fat dumb and happy, when the rear aileron of the right wing started flapping > at me (now you finally know why the hurricane reminded me to write this). > The rear spar was flipping up and down about 6" and my first thought was it > broke. Then I noticed the left wing was doing the same thing and the F work > came out. I immediately reduced power and the Flutter quit. I then noticed > that I had NO ailerons. Complete side to side stick movement did nothing. > Fortunately, I usually fly with using the rudders to lift the wing and the > crosswind landing was not an issue. > > What was the cause and how could this have been prevented? On a GN-1 the > aileron cables sneak out along the floor from the bottom of the passenger > control stick to the fuselage side and then turn around a pulley 90 degrees > upward to the wing. The pulley bracket in this case was held to the > fuselage side with one bolt. The bolt allowed the pulley to pivot upwards > causing a loss of all tension. The owner had also mentioned that he found > the pulley bracket bent and he supposed that someone had gotten into the > passenger compartment while parked at a Memorial Day event. I now suspect > that a thunderstorm blew through while it was parked outside and the wind > force on the ailerons bent the bracket. I designed, and the owner > installed, a simple metal gusset to secure the other end of the pulley bolt > and that eliminated the possibility of both the bending and pivoting of the > pulley bracket. > > My purpose for writing this is to tell you that finding out about these > things in the air is not the place to learn. Try to anticipate the huge > forces that will be put on some of these parts and prepare ahead of time. > You can rest assured that the Pietenpol I am now building will have all of > these things reviewed in a different light because of my experience learned > testing these two planes. Remember, experience is something you get right > after you need it. > > Ted Brousseau > Naples, Florida > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:55 PM PST US From: Land Shorter Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New product announcement: affordable VG's Your best bet is to check out www.landshorter.com if you have web browser access. Otherwise you can give me a call. Basically I guarantee you're going to like what they do for your Piet. The slow speed handling will really benefit and you'll feel more confident coming in on landing. Joa (VG Guy) www.landshorter.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++ VG Guy,Would like more info on your devices as I'm beginning to put my Piet wings togetherIsablcorky ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:21 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol building practices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Richard Navratil" Hey Ted Nice to hear from you. I was starting to wonder. It's been quite a while since your last post. This story you told is a tribute to your expertise with the Piet. Take care with these storms. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol building practices > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > Hello fellow Pieters, > > I am sitting here in SW Florida, hunkered down while Frances circles us > (thankfully), catching up on my tardy reading of email from the last month. > ATIS said the airport just closed until the winds die down. I am listening > to my neighbor's sailboat with its self-UNfurling jib self destruct in the > wind. You might wonder at this point what this has to do with a Pietenpol. > > I was going to fly up to Brodhead and OSH this year until I got grounded by > the family since my oldest twin daughter was going to have here own twins. > I had 3 weeks of vacation time to spend locally so I volunteered to be a > test pilot for two new Pietenpol GN-1s. I flew over 55 hours during this > time. The biggest thing I learned is what we already know. We are totally > governed by Murphy's Law. > > What does this have to do with a Piet? Anything that can go wrong will. If > you look at a part and say to yourself, "Self, as long as no one bumps it, > or pushes too hard, or stands on it (you fill in the blank - there are lots > of them)," I can guarantee that you/someone will. What you have to do is > build everything to counter anything that can go wrong. That doesn't mean > add 50 pounds in the form of armour. Bernie did an awful lot of thinking > for us. He has covered most things. Make sure you don't change the plans > and end up weakening something. This is especially true in the important > areas. Some of the obvious important areas are motor mounts, landing gear > and wing attachments. Some of the less obvious areas, that are sooo > important, are the controls. Make sure the aileron, rudder and elevator > controls are free and bullet proof. > > Enough generalities and to the point. I was flying along in my normal mode, > fat dumb and happy, when the rear aileron of the right wing started flapping > at me (now you finally know why the hurricane reminded me to write this). > The rear spar was flipping up and down about 6" and my first thought was it > broke. Then I noticed the left wing was doing the same thing and the F work > came out. I immediately reduced power and the Flutter quit. I then noticed > that I had NO ailerons. Complete side to side stick movement did nothing. > Fortunately, I usually fly with using the rudders to lift the wing and the > crosswind landing was not an issue. > > What was the cause and how could this have been prevented? On a GN-1 the > aileron cables sneak out along the floor from the bottom of the passenger > control stick to the fuselage side and then turn around a pulley 90 degrees > upward to the wing. The pulley bracket in this case was held to the > fuselage side with one bolt. The bolt allowed the pulley to pivot upwards > causing a loss of all tension. The owner had also mentioned that he found > the pulley bracket bent and he supposed that someone had gotten into the > passenger compartment while parked at a Memorial Day event. I now suspect > that a thunderstorm blew through while it was parked outside and the wind > force on the ailerons bent the bracket. I designed, and the owner > installed, a simple metal gusset to secure the other end of the pulley bolt > and that eliminated the possibility of both the bending and pivoting of the > pulley bracket. > > My purpose for writing this is to tell you that finding out about these > things in the air is not the place to learn. Try to anticipate the huge > forces that will be put on some of these parts and prepare ahead of time. > You can rest assured that the Pietenpol I am now building will have all of > these things reviewed in a different light because of my experience learned > testing these two planes. Remember, experience is something you get right > after you need it. > > Ted Brousseau > Naples, Florida > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:44 PM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: copyright SNAFU --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike Luther Richard: You have the benefit of the experience and thinking of others, right here, right now. What is your question concerning Pietenpols? Mike Luther NX 1953M Richard Carden wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden > > I'm with Rick . . . it doesn't make any sense at all to me to be so > secretive about contents of the back issues of the newsletter. After > all, it's the purpose of the newsletter, and this website, to exchange > information for the mutual benefit of builders? > > Sombody's got a really screwy idea of proprietary rights. It's one thing > to copy copyrighted material; it's quite another to copy material that's > already in the public domain. > > If there's anybody out there who has copies of newsletters that they'd > let me read (any copy for my own enlightenment) I'd be happy to pay > postage and handling both ways, and put up some kind of security deposit > for safe return. > > I'm not interested in pirating material for resale . . . I'd just like > to have the benefit of the experience and thinking of others. > > Dick Carden > >