---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/06/04: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Building wings (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 2. 03:41 AM - Re: Building wings (cgalley) 3. 05:13 AM - Re: Building wings (PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com) 4. 05:40 AM - Re: welding (David Esslinger) 5. 06:46 AM - Re: copyright SNAFU (Richard Carden) 6. 07:19 AM - Re: welding (James Dallas) 7. 07:20 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/05/04 (TBYH@aol.com) 8. 08:35 AM - rudder bar pressures (Douwe Blumberg) 9. 08:49 AM - Re: Two Air Camper projects for sale (N321TX@wmconnect.com) 10. 08:51 AM - Re: welding (Don Morris) 11. 11:46 AM - Re: welding (Mike Luther) 12. 01:54 PM - Re: welding (walt evans) 13. 01:56 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 14. 02:26 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (walt evans) 15. 03:19 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 16. 04:47 PM - Re: Building wings (Dale Johnson) 17. 05:26 PM - Re: Building wings (cgalley) 18. 10:14 PM - Progress (Caution long download) (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 19. 11:18 PM - Re: welding (Jimmy Courtney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:41 AM PST US ETAsAhQj/dzQW/AtcK0Pv4JYZKqAbUAQywIUN/AFHK2oUGRAMdvq+G/FduVhaTo= From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building wings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) I need a little advise from some one who has covered their wings. The plans for the 3 piece wing shows a strip of 1/16 x 2" ply on both the top and bottom of the root rib to make the rib hold its shape against the fabric tension. Won't the rib stitching cord deform or collapse these ply. stiffeners? Thanks for any advise. Leon S. Nickerson Ks. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:21 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building wings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" Don't need to rib stitch the root rib. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Stefan" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building wings > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > I need a little advise from some one who has covered their wings. The > plans for the 3 piece wing shows a strip of 1/16 x 2" ply on both the > top and bottom of the root rib to make the rib hold its shape against > the fabric tension. Won't the rib stitching cord deform or collapse > these ply. stiffeners? Thanks for any advise. Leon S. Nickerson Ks. > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:47 AM PST US From: PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building wings Leon, Cy is correct, the roots are covered by the gap covering strip of aluminum. Still kicking in central florida after 2 hurricanes; Frances was worse than Charley for us. It lasted so long, started Sat afternoon and is still blowing/raining some. Amazing that we lost power for only 6 hours yesterday. COUNTING OUR BLESSINGS IN TAVARES. Regards, Lou Larsen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:10 AM PST US From: "David Esslinger" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: welding Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:53 AM PST US From: Richard Carden Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: copyright SNAFU --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden Mike: I'm a firm believer in gathering all the smarts I can before launch. I guess it's not so much the questions I have right this minute as much as it is the questions I ought to have! That is to say, I know some things which I have questions about, but what concerns me is that in my ignorance there are questions I should ask but don't realize that I need to ask them. Further, if the Piet fraternity if anything like the GlaStar fraternity, and it appears that it is, then there will be tips and more tips to be learned from . . . there's no sense in reinventing the wheel. Besides, at my age I don't have any reinventing time left!! I really appreciate your offer to help; I've copied your email address into my Piet address book, and you'll undoubtedly hear from me. Thanks, and best regards, Dick ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:17 AM PST US From: "James Dallas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:16:33 -0500 David, No. Most "MIG" wires are not compatible with 4130. They will make a pretty weld that over time with vibration will crack out. The best way is gas (preferable) or TIG. Jim Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: David Esslinger To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: welding Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:51 AM PST US From: TBYH@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/05/04 I still maintain that copyright law clearly shows that the copyright for the BPA newsletters remains with the BPA -- not the editor. BPA was the publisher and as such, owns the copyright -- not the editor. If the BPA members want to reproduce the old ones, they have that right. The editor was working at the request of the BPA which was paying for the newsletter. For example, the editor of the NY Times does not own the copyright to that newspaper, the NY Times Corp. (the publisher) does. And I'm absolutely certain that the copyright on all the articles within those newsletters belongs with the authors of those articles -- and not with the editor. I wouldn't be too afraid of threats to sue. Fred B. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:56 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. Any ideas? Douwe ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:45 AM PST US From: N321TX@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Two Air Camper projects for sale I've had a number of requests already for picture CDs of the two Air Campers I'll be putting on Ebay late this month. In addition to mailing the CD containing pictures, I'll include a copy of the letter I sent to the builder of N1195P expressing my concern about missing parts and the condition of the airplane after all the fabric was stripped off, and partial disassembly of the airplane. I'll also include some other notes I sent to the Atlanta FSDO about the condition of N1195P. Also to be included will be several e-mails from the builder stating the condition of the airplane prior to the sale. I'm trying to put all my cards on the table, so to speak, so interested parties will have enough info about the Pietenpol. I feel that by including this information and the pictures, I can represent this "project" Pietenpol as honestly and fairly as possible. It is my goal to be as ethical about this project as I can, because I believe in the Golden Rule, despite the fact that the chap who built N1195P was deceptive in his representation during my transaction in October. The airplane was represented to me as having been "stored inside" in a fashion that protected it from the environment. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:57 AM PST US From: Don Morris Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Hi The common answer to your question is "no." That is not completely correct, however. MIG welding was designed for rapid production work, and here is where it shines. It can be used to weld 4130 steel, and does a good job (if you use the right wire, etc). According to the EAA's FAQ's, many kit aircraft are put together with MIG welders back at the factory. All of this being said, however, the skill level required to produce acceptable quality MIG welds in the thin tubing required for aircraft is very high - and the technique is exacting. So, the answer mainly is - it depends on your skill. Most do not recommend it (as I am sure they will point out in answering this letter ;-) But, it can be done. -Don David Esslinger wrote: > > > Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:28 AM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding David: I have used all three methods on my plane. Part of my learning experience. Soo... what I have learned is that Oxy Acetylene is good practice for Tig. And Mig is great for either building jigs or for one-handed spot welds to hold the work together until it is Tigged or Gas welded. If it wa$ up to me I would have one of each. But, I own a Oxy rig and I rent a Mig (Inexpensive) and I beg for use of a Tig. (Expensive) In answer to your question and in order of my preference I would say Tig, Oxy, Mig. Mike L. David Esslinger wrote: > > > Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:17 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Dave, I built two projects under the watchful eye of my AP mentor. He's from the old school (the late Leo Loudenschlager's AP) and he's strictly a OA guy. He cringes at TIG, but says it's OK if normalized with a flame. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: David Esslinger To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 8:26 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: welding Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:00 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Figure in a panic your legs could put MANY hundreds (probably in the low thousands) of pounds each on the rudder bar. It is common after an accident to see the steel brake peddle rod bent to the floor in cars (and the bend didn't happen from impact). Adrenaline and pure terror can make your body incredibly strong. That said, if you are jamming down THAT hard on the rudder bar you are in a LOT more trouble than failing the bar will cause. This is where a little "logic engineering" comes in. Figure what load the pivot bolt can take (bending or sheer, whichever is less) and test load your rudder bar with that many pounds. That will give you a fair assurance that the pivot bolt will fail before the bar and that is all you need. If there is a flaw in the wood or you carved the cross section too much it will show up in your test. All problems don't require complex analysis to find out what is "good enough" and I haven't heard of a pivot bolt failing in a Pietenpol yet. Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. Any ideas? Douwe ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:08 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Douwe, From what I remember, the rudder bar hits the bottom of the front seat as a stop. So as long as that happens before the rudder itself hits any kind of stop, there will be no real force on the cables and hardware. Since your feet are to the outside of the "tube", under normal operation, there should be little or no forces on the pivot bolt. Now if you're thinking of a "panic stop" where both feet go forward, guess it would be the strength of the wood or the pivot bolt. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. Any ideas? Douwe ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:19 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures You are right that the loads on the cables, rudder horns and other parts aft of the bar are not affected by the pressure on the bar. That is the primary advantage of using a bar in place of rudder pedals, it allows all parts aft of the bar to use design loads based on air loads instead of pilot induced loads. Several designs had serious damage to the tails because builders substituted pedals where bars were called for and pressure on both pedals at once damaged the rudder horns, rudder hinges and in one case the aluminum longerons in an ultralight. Most people don't even realize they are pressing on both pedals at once until pressure reaches slightly OVER their standing weight! That is why I said using the pivot bolt strength as a limit would work as a poor mans method of determining the strength requirement for the bar. I think you would be surprised at the force we keep on the rudder controls all the time that resolves itself as either load on the bar pivot or tension in the cables and other parts with pedals. How many times have you stretched in the cockpit and pushed yourself back and up in the seat by pushing on both sides of the bar? Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: walt evans To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Douwe, From what I remember, the rudder bar hits the bottom of the front seat as a stop. So as long as that happens before the rudder itself hits any kind of stop, there will be no real force on the cables and hardware. Since your feet are to the outside of the "tube", under normal operation, there should be little or no forces on the pivot bolt. Now if you're thinking of a "panic stop" where both feet go forward, guess it would be the strength of the wood or the pivot bolt. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 11:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. Any ideas? Douwe ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:00 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Building wings --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dale Johnson" No stiching required on the wing root rib. The glue holds it to the 2" plywood. I used 2 layers of 1/16 plywood. Dale in Mpls > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 9/6/2004 2:45:20 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building wings > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > I need a little advise from some one who has covered their wings. The > plans for the 3 piece wing shows a strip of 1/16 x 2" ply on both the > top and bottom of the root rib to make the rib hold its shape against > the fabric tension. Won't the rib stitching cord deform or collapse > these ply. stiffeners? Thanks for any advise. Leon S. Nickerson Ks. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:17 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building wings The fabric is also more importantly cemented around the side of the Root rib so the the stress is in shear not tension. Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: PIETLARS29@wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building wings Leon, Cy is correct, the roots are covered by the gap covering strip of aluminum. Still kicking in central florida after 2 hurricanes; Frances was worse than Charley for us. It lasted so long, started Sat afternoon and is still blowing/raining some. Amazing that we lost power for only 6 hours yesterday. COUNTING OUR BLESSINGS IN TAVARES. Regards, Lou Larsen ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:29 PM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress (Caution long download) Dear Piet Gang Well...sometimes progress means taking a step backwards. It seems like lately every time I get a chance to work on the piet I end up re-doing something that the original builder has done. Re work has included landing gear changes, rudder control cable changes, firewall changes, tail brace wire changes... and now... this. I just spent time this weekend removing unnecessary floorboards. Chuck... I am sure you are happy to know that we decided to make this change. The original bulder of the 40-yr-old Piet added 1/4 in plywood floorboard to the airplane. When Chuck was here in July, he recommended that we remove it to save weight and to allow for better access for inspection of the landing gear bolts and engine mount bolts and of the glue joints in the fuselage structure. Lon and I were hesitant because we had already done some work toward finishing the inside and we weren't excited about having to un-do some of our work and some of the original builder's work. But this has been on my mind lately and bugging me to the point that I bit the bullet this weekend and started taking out floor. This included using a wood chisel to remove spacer/support blocks used under the " false floor. It all went better than I would have guessed. As a result, I think I have managed to trim about 7 pounds from the empty weight. See attached picture. Chuck...as you'll recall,... we were also concerned about whether the old original glue joints were sound. I am happy (while also a bit dissgruntled) to report that the joints are sound. I know this because when removing the floor support blocks... the joints were so good that I ended up tearing away some of the material from the bottom plywood. This will detract from the cosmetic appearance. Still, we will make sure that the final product is structurally sound. But all in-all... I am happy with these changes. With the floor removed, I am now installing little sheet metal "wear plates" under each rudder pedal. See the mocked up patterns in the picture. Anyway....It feels like I didn't make much progress in several hours of work. Sometimes you have to go backward to move forward. Terry ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:39 PM PST US From: Jimmy Courtney Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Hey Everybody! I hardly ever post but here goes.... in reference to 4130 steel, I read "somewhere" that Champion Aviation (Citabria, Decathalon) uses MIG welding entirely on their production aircraft. Someone may want to verify this information. I know also that extremely fast temp changes in arc welding causes bittleness that should be addressed. Some say that lower amps and attention to movment of the wire makes things work. Others say that normalizing with a flame works best (This I tend to lean toward.) I bought my Aircamper Plans last winter 2003 from Don Pietenpol but we didn't discuss welding...just engines of choice. I intend to start building this summer 2005. I can arc weld to some degree...MIG is very easy once the machine is set up...Gas welding seems like a skill obtainable but I can see a lot of practice before I'll trust any of my welds to support me or anyone else above the ground! I'll probably build my Air Camper out of wood (I'm a furniture builder and wood turner) but I will have to weld some parts. I look foward to the learning experience. I enjoy reading everyones postings!..Thanks! Jim Courtney jbciii5656@yahoo.com Florence, MS walt evans wrote: Dave, I built two projects under the watchful eye of my AP mentor. He's from the old school (the late Leo Loudenschlager's AP) and he's strictly a OA guy. He cringes at TIG, but says it's OK if normalized with a flame. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: David Esslinger Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: welding Is MIG welding acceptable for 4130 Steel? ---------------------------------