---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/08/04: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:59 AM - carb icing (Ralph) 2. 06:16 AM - strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points (Douwe Blumberg) 3. 06:25 AM - N518EP at Blakesburg (Textor, Jack) 4. 06:26 AM - Re: carb icing (Mike) 5. 11:02 AM - Re: strap fitting between landing/flying wire att (Hubbard, Eugene) 6. 11:11 AM - Fw: [vula] Air Camper (Little joke :-) (Gary Gower) 7. 11:13 AM - 75 Anniversary Hats are ready -Finally! () 8. 02:00 PM - metric clevis pins (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 9. 03:24 PM - Re: metric clevis pins (DJ Vegh) 10. 04:38 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (Rcaprd@aol.com) 11. 04:43 PM - Re: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points (Peter W Johnson) 12. 05:51 PM - Re: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points (Rcaprd@aol.com) 13. 06:12 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 14. 06:39 PM - Re: 75 Anniversary Hats are ready -Finally! (Borodent@aol.com) 15. 06:50 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (DJ Vegh) 16. 09:57 PM - Re: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach (Mike Luther) 17. 09:58 PM - Gussets, Gussets, Gussets (Stacy Clark) 18. 10:34 PM - Aircraft Spruce & Specialty (Stacy Clark) 19. 11:01 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (Mike Luther) 20. 11:30 PM - Re: Gussets, Gussets, Gussets (Mike Luther) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:07 AM PST US From: "Ralph" Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb icing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ralph" I need to finish my engine conversion. I have the manifold and exhaust left to do. A few years ago the BPA newsletter had a note from a man who had installed the water heated plate from a Ford Falcon between the manifold and carb. I can't relocate the article and am wondering if anyone out there in cyberland would be familiar with this approach. I have the water heated plate from a Falcon, but the holes don't come close to lining up. I would like to contact the person who used this approach to learn how he accomplished the mounting. As much as the rpms drop when you pull the carb heat on an aircraft engine I wonder if the same effect occurs on the "A" engine when it is constantly fed warm air for combustion. Is it possible to keep the manifold heated enough to stop icing but still use cool air intake for greater power? Carol and Ralph Raymond ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:38 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points I've seen one some Piets, that their builders ran strap fittings across the bottom cross piece between the landing gear/flying wire/strut attach fittings. My project came with one he had run along the wooden cross piece traversing the front cockpit floor between the front fittings, but there isn't one between the rear set. I can't find them on my plans so I'm thinking it is a builder addition. It kind of makes sense, to just tie everything together side to side, so I'm thinking I should add one to the back as well. Any thoughts? Douwe ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: N518EP at Blakesburg From: "Textor, Jack" I attended Blakesburg last weekend. There was only one Piet, 518EP. It was beautiful, well built and light. The owner Ty Daniels said it weighed 575 pounds. I believe he is from Brodhead. Ty are you on the list? I have attached a picture. Jack Textor Des Moines ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:11 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb icing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike" Ralph, Carb icing doesn't occur in the manifold but in the carburetor itself, at the venturi. It is the adiabatic cooling, caused by the drop in pressure at the venturi, that causes the moisture in the air to condense out of the airflow and freeze, when there is enough moisture in the air. Carburetor heat raises the temperature of the incoming air to the point where the ice melts. If the carb heat is left on all the time, carb icing can still occur, but at a much lower ambient air temperature than normally. If that happens, you don't have any carb heat left to melt the ice...bad. The RPM drop you get when you use carb heat is caused by the decreased density of air that is taken into the cylinders, the same effect that is felt, to a certain extent, on a hot day. Having the water-heated plate would still heat the air going into the cylinders but would probably not remove any ice formed in the venturi upstream of the plate. So, having the plate hot all the time would rob you of power and would probably not do any good as carb heat. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph" Subject: Pietenpol-List: carb icing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ralph" > > I need to finish my engine conversion. I have the manifold and exhaust left > to do. A few years ago the BPA newsletter had a note from a man who had > installed the water heated plate from a Ford Falcon between the manifold and > carb. I can't relocate the article and am wondering if anyone out there in > cyberland would be familiar with this approach. I have the water heated > plate from a Falcon, but the holes don't come close to lining up. I would > like to contact the person who used this approach to learn how he > accomplished the mounting. As much as the rpms drop when you pull the carb > heat on an aircraft engine I wonder if the same effect occurs on the "A" > engine when it is constantly fed warm air for combustion. Is it possible to > keep the manifold heated enough to stop icing but still use cool air intake > for greater power? > > Carol and Ralph > Raymond > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:49 AM PST US From: "Hubbard, Eugene" ach points Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire att ach points As I remember, both are mentioned on the plans as "optional". I'm certainly planning to use them. Spent yesterday evening fitting 3-piece wing root flashing. Lots of nits. Gene Hubbard San Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Subject: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points I've seen one some Piets, that their builders ran strap fittings across the bottom cross piece between the landing gear/flying wire/strut attach fittings. My project came with one he had run along the wooden cross piece traversing the front cockpit floor between the front fittings, but there isn't one between the rear set. I can't find them on my plans so I'm thinking it is a builder addition. It kind of makes sense, to just tie everything together side to side, so I'm thinking I should add one to the back as well. Any thoughts? Douwe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:15 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: [vula] Air Camper (Little joke :-) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower This Flying Flea is not a Pietenpol nor a GN-1... But could qualify as an "Air Camper" ? Saludos Gary Gower. > --- pietenpol2002 wrote: > > > To: vula@yahoogroups.com > > From: "pietenpol2002" > > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:53:47 -0000 > > Subject: [vula] Air Camper > > > > > > > > > > Gives new meaning to Bernie Pietenpol's concept of > > "Air Camper". > > > > Ron > > > > http://jolly.roger.free.fr/m111.htm > > > > _______________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: 75 Anniversary Hats are ready -Finally! --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" Hey everyone, The hats are back from the embroidery shop and they look great. Thanks to those who encouraged me to do this again this year. Im offering free shipping to everyone on any number of hats. I can get the image on shirts and fleece throws and may offer that if I can get my money back from hat sales. Any proceeds will be used to support my family and low and slow flying habit! More details below. Ive got the same hat shells as last time, but with some added colors. Black seemed to be the most popular front bill size and so I ordered most in black. I do have a dozen each of the Green, Red, and Yellow Gold however. Here is the specs and pricing: The Hat: Heavy Stone Washed Denim low crown unconstructed buckle back adjustment. Color is khaki with a green, red, black or gold bill. (sorry no blue this time.) One size fits all. Basically I got my favorite hat and called the manufacture and spec'd it from it. You will love it. It is crushable and comfortable. The Image: The 75 year anniversary image will be similar to the one on previous years hats, but this one has a Gold 75 YRS on the front. I think it is really cool. Check the web site if you want to see the revised image. http://aircamper.byu.edu The embroidery: 13000 stitches of the finest thread. 75 Years in Gold thread The price $20 Free Shipping!!! Send me an email including details and your Phone # to: steve@byu.edu Check or paypal OK. Paypal address is wifeopilot@sfcn.org Checks go to: Steve Eldredge 2810 E Canyon Rd Spanish Fork UT 84660 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:58 PM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: metric clevis pins Is there anyone on the list who is from a country where metric parts are available? I have some small turnbuckles with a .150 hole in the pin end and I would like to find some clevis pins to fit. Wicks has 1/8" pins, but they are a loose fit. Dennis ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:13 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: metric clevis pins try Ronstan. they are from "down under" and may use metric sized parts. http://www.ronstan.com/arch/ DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Engelkenjohn To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: metric clevis pins Is there anyone on the list who is from a country where metric parts are available? I have some small turnbuckles with a .150 hole in the pin end and I would like to find some clevis pins to fit. Wicks has 1/8" pins, but they are a loose fit. Dennis ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:52 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. Any ideas? >> Douwe, Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build one the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the plans call out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:39 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points Douwe, My British produced plans call for straps front and back. I have them installed. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Subject: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points I've seen one some Piets, that their builders ran strap fittings across the bottom cross piece between the landing gear/flying wire/strut attach fittings. My project came with one he had run along the wooden cross piece traversing the front cockpit floor between the front fittings, but there isn't one between the rear set. I can't find them on my plans so I'm thinking it is a builder addition. It kind of makes sense, to just tie everything together side to side, so I'm thinking I should add one to the back as well. Any thoughts? Douwe ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:58 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 9/8/04 8:17:04 AM Central Daylight Time, douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: << I've seen one some Piets, that their builders ran strap fittings across the bottom cross piece between the landing gear/flying wire/strut attach fittings. My project came with one he had run along the wooden cross piece traversing the front cockpit floor between the front fittings, but there isn't one between the rear set. I can't find them on my plans so I'm thinking it is a builder addition. It kind of makes sense, to just tie everything together side to side, so I'm thinking I should add one to the back as well. Any thoughts? >> Those straps need to be there, and are shown on Drawing No. 3. B.H.P. used them. For new construction you can incorporate them into the tongue that attaches the lower end of the lift struts, and use .060" X 2" wide straps. This is what the illustration shows. Weld the gear lugs right to the bottom. They go across the bottom, between the lift strut / gear attach fittings. They accept the G loads of the wing, when you drop it in on landing. I had some nasty squawks in this area, to take care of before I went on my 'Tour America'. On the front strap, it bowed down away from the bottom of the fuse. The aft strap has bolts through it, securing the safety strap for the control torque tube, rudder bar support, master cylinder pivots, and seat belt lugs. No problem on the aft strap. I drilled one hole in the middle of the front strap, but it was still not enough. The strap now bows down on the left side, between the gear lug, and bolt. I will add another bolt to each side of the center bolt, for a total of three #10 bolts spaced evenly across the strap. I also had to rework the four 'L' brackets on the inside. They were not thick enough, and were not 4130 steel, so the bolt torque dimpled them. I made new ones, and used .060" for the inside 'L' brackets. This was the same AOG (aircraft on ground) period that I built spring struts, to replace the bunji struts. I much prefer the spring struts. I have tested this airframe design to the extreem, by bounding in some really nasty landings, and I can't break it !! The best part is that I can regain control. Bernard Harold Pietenpol really got it right in his design...don't change it !! Chuck Gantzer NX770CG ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:44 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the "originality" place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load passes through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot strength load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little concerned > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > Any ideas? >> > > Douwe, > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build one > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the plans call > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > Chuck G. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:49 PM PST US From: Borodent@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: 75 Anniversary Hats are ready -Finally! --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Borodent@aol.com In a message dated 9/8/04 2:13:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steve@byu.edu writes: << http://aircamper.byu.edu >> great photos Henry Williams ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:58 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some carefully engineered cases, aluminum). Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! DJ :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the "originality" > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load passes > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot strength > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > Hank J > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > concerned > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > Douwe, > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build one > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the plans > call > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:23 PM PST US From: Mike Luther points Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: strap fitting between landing/flying wire attach points Douwe: I ran one across fore and aft. Yeah, I know it adds weight, but it is real easy to take of the gear in one piece and roll it out of the way when I am covering the fuselage. Mike L. NX1953M Douwe Blumberg wrote: > I've seen one some Piets, that their builders ran strap fittings > across the bottom cross piece between the landing gear/flying > wire/strut attach fittings. My project came with one he had run along > the wooden cross piece traversing the front cockpit floor between the > front fittings, but there isn't one between the rear set. I can't find > them on my plans so I'm thinking it is a builder addition. It kind of > makes sense, to just tie everything together side to side, so I'm > thinking I should add one to the back as well. Any thoughts? Douwe ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:02 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gussets, Gussets, Gussets I have two question about gussets: 1. What is the width of the fuselage gussets? From looking at the plans and photos I assume that they are about 2-1/2" wide x "X length" i.e.: required to cover the trusses and diagonals. Am I correct? 2. Are the inside gussets for the fuselage cut away so the top and bottom trusses and diagonals can mate directly to the longerons. I would assume this is the reason they are mostly 1/2" x 1" x "X". I have seen in photos that this doesn't seem to be the case but it seems illogical. Thanks, Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:34 PM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty I have to retract something I previously said about AS&S (I recommended people not buy from them), to wit: When I bought my spruce kit from AS&S I elected for the (their) "Modernized Pietenpol" due to it being their only option for the three piece wing. I wrongly assumed this was the "Improved Aircamper" (1933). It was not. I found out I could have (read: should have) elected for the standard Piet spruce kit and got some extra wood for the center section. As it was I paid about $300 extra for those two pieces and a lot of "thicker" wood and some "shorter" pieces (#6 trusses) and had to sacrifice the 1x1's of the elevators for those. And was missing the 1x1 for the rudder entirely to boot. Anyway, I was pretty upset and felt that AS&S should have designed/planned their kit better as there wasn't even enough to finish the basics without ordering extra stock... Yesterday I spoke with one of their customer service department folks and explained the situation. She said she would try and get the material and shipping waved and sent two-day air. I wasn't really in the mood to battle over the $300.00 extra I paid as I was on my way to work and I will save that for another day. I though that was that... This morning I got a call from who I assumed was another of their customer relations people and I began to explain the situation to her. She kept cutting me off and I was almost at the "Okay now let REALLY talk" stage, i.e.: I'll scream you listen. When I realized that she was not from customer relations at all and was in fact from their catalog/materials department. She was calling me to find out what was wrong with their kit. Put another way, "What did we (meaning AS&S) screw up on in the kit and how can we fix it. Not only for you, but for 'everyone'". WOW! Though I'm still not thrilled that I paid extra money to begin with, that kind of service is certainly a rarity nowadays. It was completely unexpected and I was impressed! Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:42 PM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures <005801c4960a$16b952e0$d2ddf6ce@hjarrett> Douwe: I have been a cabinetmaker for years and years and have spent extra time incorporating wooden touches in my plane, but it never occured to me to use Ash for a rudder bar. Now that you have mentioned it I have a couple of ideas that might be fun, but only if they are safe and fairly light weight. Maybe two layers of .063 chrome moly plate with an ash center, kinda like a sandwich. Or two layers of ash with a rectangular tube steel center. Add a few lightening holes and test it next to Bernies idea of a rudder bar. If you are comfortable with a total destruction test on your original idea, then its ok by me. As the saying goes, "You can build it different than Bernie, but you can't build it better" Take care, Mike L. hjarrett wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the "originality" > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load passes > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot strength > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > Hank J > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > concerned > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > Douwe, > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build one > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the plans > call > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:22 PM PST US From: Mike Luther Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gussets, Gussets, Gussets Stacy: I have 2 1/4 wide gussets My inside gussets for the fuselage aren't cut away. Notching the gusset weakens the strength of the vertical truss and does not add any strength to the horizontal truss. Take care, Mike L NX1953M 272 other bikers and I attended the "Live Ride" (Anchorage to Kenai) and were fortunate to raise $53,000 for the MDA kids. Feels gooood!! Stacy Clark wrote: > I have two question about gussets: 1. What is the width of the > fuselage gussets? From looking at the plans and photos I assume that > they are about 2-1/2" wide x "X length" i.e.: required to cover the > trusses and diagonals. Am I correct? 2. Are the inside gussets for > the fuselage cut away so the top and bottom trusses and diagonals can > mate directly to the longerons. I would assume this is the reason > they are mostly 1/2" x 1" x "X". I have seen in photos that this > doesn't seem to be the case but it seems illogical. Thanks,Stacy There > is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that > is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark