---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/09/04: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:59 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (Jack Phillips) 2. 04:29 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 3. 04:33 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty (walt evans) 4. 04:40 AM - Re: welding (Jim Ash) 5. 06:27 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (cgalley) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 7. 06:54 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (DJ Vegh) 8. 06:59 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 9. 07:14 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (DJ Vegh) 10. 07:45 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (Michael D Cuy) 11. 07:54 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty (Michael D Cuy) 12. 08:39 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (cgalley) 13. 09:31 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (DJ Vegh) 14. 09:34 AM - Re: rudder bar pressures (Gary Gower) 15. 12:57 PM - Re: welding (Jon Botsford) 16. 01:39 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 17. 01:39 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (hjarrett) 18. 01:39 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (hjarrett) 19. 01:39 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures (hjarrett) 20. 02:05 PM - Re: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm (cgalley) 21. 03:33 PM - Re: carb icing (Don Morris) 22. 04:25 PM - Re: carb icing (Mike) 23. 07:51 PM - Horizontal stab question (Rick Holland) 24. 09:32 PM - Re: welding (Catdesign) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:11 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Actually, the old WACO biplanes did use wood for their control sticks. I believe they were hickory but am not sure. There is at least one advantage to a wooden control stick - it does not affect the compass. The compass on my Piet is in the instrument panel and the steel stick comes close enough to the compass that it definitely affects the compass. Rapid stick movements can make the compass swing through an entire revolution. Not that I will be makeing rapid movements while trying to fly a compass course, but it does mean that when swinging the compass, the stick must be held in level flight position or the compass will give erroneous readings. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some carefully engineered cases, aluminum). Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! DJ :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the "originality" > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load passes > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot strength > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > Hank J > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > concerned > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > Douwe, > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build one > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the plans > call > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:42 AM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as the properties of the material you select along with the section characteristics of the part will carry the loads. I have a garage broom in my house that I wouldn't hesitate a moment to use for a stick, as long as I tested it and proved it was capable of taking the loads I would impose on it. There is NOTHING magic about "aircraft" materials and an improperly designed Titanium part will fail long before a properly designed one made from old toilet paper tubes. You actually made my point when you said "in some carefully engineered cases". Hundreds of planes fly with wood rudder bars and sticks. Test it for the loads it will see plus a safety margin and go fly. You can't just go around substituting materials, but that isn't what he did. Hank (that broom has one nice piece of wood in the handle) J ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some carefully > engineered cases, aluminum). > > Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! > > DJ > > :) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the > "originality" > > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load > passes > > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot > strength > > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > > concerned > > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > > > Douwe, > > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build > one > > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the > plans > > call > > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:44 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Stacy, I got my spruce from AS&S about 6 years ago. First they sent me a list of materials that they would supply. And they sent a personal list from a previous builder that they based it on. I said it was OK and ordered it. The order was great! Short on nothing, and even a few xtra pieces. It was based on the long fuse with the three piece wing(had the 4 long spars and the two short for the center section. Maybe they had some kind of change of command thru the years and lost the list. I had scanned all my paperwork on the lumber lists and list that was based on. I'll email it to you if you'd like. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Stacy Clark To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty I have to retract something I previously said about AS&S (I recommended people not buy from them), to wit: When I bought my spruce kit from AS&S I elected for the (their) "Modernized Pietenpol" due to it being their only option for the three piece wing. I wrongly assumed this was the "Improved Aircamper" (1933). It was not. I found out I could have (read: should have) elected for the standard Piet spruce kit and got some extra wood for the center section. As it was I paid about $300 extra for those two pieces and a lot of "thicker" wood and some "shorter" pieces (#6 trusses) and had to sacrifice the 1x1's of the elevators for those. And was missing the 1x1 for the rudder entirely to boot. Anyway, I was pretty upset and felt that AS&S should have designed/planned their kit better as there wasn't even enough to finish the basics without ordering extra stock... Yesterday I spoke with one of their customer service department folks and explained the situation. She said she would try and get the material and shipping waved and sent two-day air. I wasn't really in the mood to battle over the $300.00 extra I paid as I was on my way to work and I will save that for another day. I though that was that... This morning I got a call from who I assumed was another of their customer relations people and I began to explain the situation to her. She kept cutting me off and I was almost at the "Okay now let REALLY talk" stage, i.e.: I'll scream you listen. When I realized that she was not from customer relations at all and was in fact from their catalog/materials department. She was calling me to find out what was wrong with their kit. Put another way, "What did we (meaning AS&S) screw up on in the kit and how can we fix it. Not only for you, but for 'everyone'". WOW! Though I'm still not thrilled that I paid extra money to begin with, that kind of service is certainly a rarity nowadays. It was completely unexpected and I was impressed! Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:25 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding I agree with this. I'm a computer nerd by profession, but I also spent 3 years at two nights a week leaning welding. I certified on stick, and was working on a MIG cert when the program came unglued. All things being equal, gas is easier to learn. There are those who have learned on MIG without ever learning gas and claim it's easier, but I question whether their welds would hold up to strength testing and x-ray inspection. With gas, you've got your heat source in one hand and your filler rod in the other, which makes it easier to control how much of each you use. On a MIG (GMAW) welder, both heat and feed rate are controlled by knobs on the face of the welder. When you pull the trigger, you get what you've set up. If you don't know how to translate what is happening when you strike a weld, you risk having problems. A good MIG weld will sound like eggs frying. Personally, if you don't understand how to gas weld, you've got no business welding with MIG. When learning to weld, you're usually given a flat plate and you weld in a straight line. This doesn't require you to reposition your arms or body to complete the weld. Once you've learned this, then you learn to go around curves, specifically pipe. I started on the pipe cert (using stick (SMAW)) with 6" diameter pipe, but decided I had no personal use for it and moved on to MIG. The largest diameter you've going to see doing a 4130 tube fuselage is going to be an inch or so. Unless you've got a rotating jig, this is going to require you to wrap yourself around the joint as you weld it up. And worse yet, it's in clusters, so you've got all this other stuff in the way, which means you're going to be crawling through this thing like a jungle gym. My guess is you're going to have to start and stop a full-circle weld of these diameters at least 3 times (maybe 2, if you're a good contortionist), just to get positioned. Each time creates the possibility of some weakness, but if you start and stop correctly, you can control this. Everything I've read about using TIG (GTAW) on 4130 tubing requires the welder to go back and normalize the weld area, because the heat is applied to a very localized area and the surrounding area gets very little. I've seen a bunch of welds in which the joint held OK, but the tubing broke right next to the weld because it was too brittle. The only thing I like more about TIG in this application is that gas can be prone to inclusions (unwanted stuff embedded in the weld), where it is really minimized with TIG. But I don't think the difference here is enough to worry about. If I had a TIG rig, I'd personally do my fuselage with TIG, then go back and normalize with gas. But I don't, so mine will be gas welded. I couldn't really justify the $1400 for the Lincoln 175 at Sun 'n Fun the last 2 years, and this is about the lowest I'd go for a good TIG machine. Besides, a gas rig is cheaper than MIG or TIG, unless you've got acccess to somebody else's equipment. Although I personally buy my gas bottles, they can also be leased for a short or long term. Sometimes I'll lease big bottles if I've got a large job to do. If you're going to buy gas equipment to do your plane, pick up a Meco, Smith, or Henrob torch body. I wouldn't try it with a full-sized Victor torch; they're good units for larger stuff, but they're just not agile enough for what you need here. Although I don't want to encourage sloppiness, we're all (I think) human here. One of the plus sides to gas is that it's more forgiving of mistakes; a less-than-perfect weld in gas will work. In MIG or TIG your odds are a lot worse. Jim Ash At 9/7/2004 06:08 AM -0700, you wrote: >Please understand what the message is regarding welding. Yes, with the >proper knowledge and equipment, 4130 can be MIG welded, or TIG welded or >diffusion bonded, or even glued into bicycle-type fittings. Done >properly, MIG welding can save hours of work and produce beautiful and >very reliable assemblies. >HOWEVER, for the normal homebuilder, who has a competent hobbyist's skill >level, cannot or will not spend the money on a heat-treat oven, and/or >won't be able to subject his work to the rigorous inspection that is >performed by most liability-conscious manufacturers, oxy-acetylene welding >provides the safest and cheapest way to fabricate a strong assembly of 4130. > >Mike Hardaway >----- Original Message ----- >From: N321TX@wmconnect.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:35 AM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding > >Kit Fox and Avid used MIG welders on their respective 4130 fuselages. > >My Avid was wrecked by a commercial pilot in 1993 (stalled out at appx. >200 feet after takeoff) and the airplane was demolished. The pilot was not >injured, but chromoly tubing (4130) was broken in a number of places. >However, not a single MIG weld joint came apart. > >...snip... ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:26 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" So do Stearmans ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > Actually, the old WACO biplanes did use wood for their control sticks. I > believe they were hickory but am not sure. There is at least one advantage > to a wooden control stick - it does not affect the compass. The compass on > my Piet is in the instrument panel and the steel stick comes close enough to > the compass that it definitely affects the compass. Rapid stick movements > can make the compass swing through an entire revolution. Not that I will be > makeing rapid movements while trying to fly a compass course, but it does > mean that when swinging the compass, the stick must be held in level flight > position or the compass will give erroneous readings. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DJ Vegh > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:51 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some carefully > engineered cases, aluminum). > > Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! > > DJ > > :) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the > "originality" > > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load > passes > > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot > strength > > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > > concerned > > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > > > Douwe, > > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build > one > > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the > plans > > call > > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:24 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com If you fly stradling a broomstick, would that qualify you as a Witch or a Warlord? Is there a space in your pilot log for that? DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:16 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" I think it's Warlock and not Warlord. hmmm.... Warlord..... isn't that what alot of folks call our President? DJ absolutely do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com > > If you fly stradling a broomstick, would that qualify you as a Witch or a Warlord? Is there a space in your pilot log for that? > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:25 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com OOps...I should have known that. I guess I don't watch enough Harry Potter. DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:37 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by the opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me a wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls gives me the heebie jeebies. Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control stick/torque tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the rudder bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum pulleys.... I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much cheaper. That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... huh?! ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton twine instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably strong enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home Depot for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that shit up in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood pulleys I was thinking about. well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to work and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been kicking around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a minute, I already have one of those. DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right now. :) once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're coming to take me away haa haa ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as the > properties of the material you select along with the section characteristics > of the part will carry the loads. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:46 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures <005801c4960a$16b952e0$d2ddf6ce@hjarrett> Like Hank sez, there is nothing wrong with using ash for a rudder bar-------the Curtiss Jenny had it along with many early aircraft. There is nothing wrong with a hardwood control stick either. Look at the Jenny on the cover of the September issue of Sport Aviation where the builder used AX HANDLES for the main gear legs---made of ash. Mike C. At 06:50 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > >IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some carefully >engineered cases, aluminum). > >Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! > >DJ > >:) >----- Original Message ----- >From: "hjarrett" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:12 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the >"originality" > > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than tubes > > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or bending > > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the bar > > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is weaker). > > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be faster > > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to you. Just > > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar load >passes > > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang the bar > > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double shear > > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot >strength > > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the rudder bar? > > > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > > concerned > > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my taste. > > > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > > > Douwe, > > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and build >one > > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things the >plans > > call > > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:42 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Stacy-- some guys on the Corby Starlet list have been having fits with kits from ASSco, but just recently they too have called to find out what is missing in the kits and what they can do to correct it. Refreshing, to say the least. At least they are making an effort---and don't you think for one minute that Jim Irwin is not lurking on all of our lists !!!!!!! Mike C. At 09:34 PM 9/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I have to retract something I previously said about AS&S (I recommended >people not buy from them), to wit: > >When I bought my spruce kit from AS&S I elected for the (their) >"Modernized Pietenpol" due to it being their only option for the three >piece wing. I wrongly assumed this was the "Improved Aircamper" >(1933). It was not. I found out I could have (read: should have) elected >for the standard Piet spruce kit and got some extra wood for the center >section. As it was I paid about $300 extra for those two pieces and a lot >of "thicker" wood and some "shorter" pieces (#6 trusses) and had to >sacrifice the 1x1's of the elevators for those. And was missing the 1x1 >for the rudder entirely to boot. Anyway, I was pretty upset and felt that >AS&S should have designed/planned their kit better as there wasn't even >enough to finish the basics without ordering extra stock... > >Yesterday I spoke with one of their customer service department folks and >explained the situation. She said she would try and get the material and >shipping waved and sent two-day air. I wasn't really in the mood to >battle over the $300.00 extra I paid as I was on my way to work and I will >save that for another day. I though that was that... > >This morning I got a call from who I assumed was another of their customer >relations people and I began to explain the situation to her. She kept >cutting me off and I was almost at the "Okay now let REALLY talk" stage, >i.e.: I'll scream you listen. When I realized that she was not from >customer relations at all and was in fact from their catalog/materials >department. She was calling me to find out what was wrong with their >kit. Put another way, "What did we (meaning AS&S) screw up on in the kit >and how can we fix it. Not only for you, but for 'everyone'". WOW! > >Though I'm still not thrilled that I paid extra money to begin with, that >kind of service is certainly a rarity nowadays. It was completely >unexpected and I was impressed! > >Stacy > > >There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and >that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:58 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" Most WW1 planes had a rudder bar of wood and they did go into combat. ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by the > opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me a > wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls gives me > the heebie jeebies. > > Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control stick/torque > tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the rudder > bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". > > Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum pulleys.... > I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much cheaper. > That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... huh?! > > ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton twine > instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably strong > enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home Depot > for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that shit up > in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood pulleys > I was thinking about. > > well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to work > and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been kicking > around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) > > hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a minute, > I already have one of those. > > > DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right now. :) > > > once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're coming > to take me away haa haa > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" > > > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as the > > properties of the material you select along with the section > characteristics > > of the part will carry the loads. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:35 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" they didn't wear 'chutes either, so I'm not so sure the mentality back then was completely sane. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > Most WW1 planes had a rudder bar of wood and they did go into combat. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DJ Vegh" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by the > > opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me a > > wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls gives me > > the heebie jeebies. > > > > Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control > stick/torque > > tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the > rudder > > bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". > > > > Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum > pulleys.... > > I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much cheaper. > > That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... huh?! > > > > ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton > twine > > instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably strong > > enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home Depot > > for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that shit up > > in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood > pulleys > > I was thinking about. > > > > well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to work > > and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been > kicking > > around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) > > > > hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a minute, > > I already have one of those. > > > > > > DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right now. > :) > > > > > > > > > > once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're > coming > > to take me away haa haa > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "hjarrett" > > > > > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as > the > > > properties of the material you select along with the section > > characteristics > > > of the part will carry the loads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:41 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower DJ, Just do a some testing. Can you break the broom handle with on hand? If you can't, then is OK to use it as a control stick. The force aplied is important. If there are no safety belts and when your plane goes inverted, then the control stick has to be 4130 to hold you from falling off the plane :-) :-) :-) Saludos Gary Gower. --- DJ Vegh wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some > carefully > engineered cases, aluminum). > > Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! > > DJ > > :) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > > > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the > "originality" > > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than > tubes > > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or > bending > > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the > bar > > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is > weaker). > > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be > faster > > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to > you. Just > > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar > load > passes > > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang > the bar > > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double > shear > > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot > strength > > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > > Hank J > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the > rudder bar? > > > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > > concerned > > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my > taste. > > > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > > > Douwe, > > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and > build > one > > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things > the > plans > > call > > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:22 PM PST US From: "Jon Botsford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Next month's issue of Sport Aviation will have the first in a series of articles on welding aircraft alloy steels. It will be very helpful to those interested in welding parts for aircraft use ( and others as well). The series is authored by a gentleman named Scott Helzer. He recently conducted an extensive research program on the methodology of welding for aircraft. I think this will be very helpful and put to rest a lot of speculation as to what are the best practices. Jon Botsford ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ash To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding I agree with this. I'm a computer nerd by profession, but I also spent 3 years at two nights a week leaning welding. I certified on stick, and was working on a MIG cert when the program came unglued. All things being equal, gas is easier to learn. There are those who have learned on MIG without ever learning gas and claim it's easier, but I question whether their welds would hold up to strength testing and x-ray inspection. With gas, you've got your heat source in one hand and your filler rod in the other, which makes it easier to control how much of each you use. On a MIG (GMAW) welder, both heat and feed rate are controlled by knobs on the face of the welder. When you pull the trigger, you get what you've set up. If you don't know how to translate what is happening when you strike a weld, you risk having problems. A good MIG weld will sound like eggs frying. Personally, if you don't understand how to gas weld, you've got no business welding with MIG. When learning to weld, you're usually given a flat plate and you weld in a straight line. This doesn't require you to reposition your arms or body to complete the weld. Once you've learned this, then you learn to go around curves, specifically pipe. I started on the pipe cert (using stick (SMAW)) with 6" diameter pipe, but decided I had no personal use for it and moved on to MIG. The largest diameter you've going to see doing a 4130 tube fuselage is going to be an inch or so. Unless you've got a rotating jig, this is going to require you to wrap yourself around the joint as you weld it up. And worse yet, it's in clusters, so you've got all this other stuff in the way, which means you're going to be crawling through this thing like a jungle gym. My guess is you're going to have to start and stop a full-circle weld of these diameters at least 3 times (maybe 2, if you're a good contortionist), just to get positioned. Each time creates the possibility of some weakness, but if you start and stop correctly, you can control this. Everything I've read about using TIG (GTAW) on 4130 tubing requires the welder to go back and normalize the weld area, because the heat is applied to a very localized area and the surrounding area gets very little. I've seen a bunch of welds in which the joint held OK, but the tubing broke right next to the weld because it was too brittle. The only thing I like more about TIG in this application is that gas can be prone to inclusions (unwanted stuff embedded in the weld), where it is really minimized with TIG. But I don't think the difference here is enough to worry about. If I had a TIG rig, I'd personally do my fuselage with TIG, then go back and normalize with gas. But I don't, so mine will be gas welded. I couldn't really justify the $1400 for the Lincoln 175 at Sun 'n Fun the last 2 years, and this is about the lowest I'd go for a good TIG machine. Besides, a gas rig is cheaper than MIG or TIG, unless you've got acccess to somebody else's equipment. Although I personally buy my gas bottles, they can also be leased for a short or long term. Sometimes I'll lease big bottles if I've got a large job to do. If you're going to buy gas equipment to do your plane, pick up a Meco, Smith, or Henrob torch body. I wouldn't try it with a full-sized Victor torch; they're good units for larger stuff, but they're just not agile enough for what you need here. Although I don't want to encourage sloppiness, we're all (I think) human here. One of the plus sides to gas is that it's more forgiving of mistakes; a less-than-perfect weld in gas will work. In MIG or TIG your odds are a lot worse. Jim Ash At 9/7/2004 06:08 AM -0700, you wrote: Please understand what the message is regarding welding. Yes, with the proper knowledge and equipment, 4130 can be MIG welded, or TIG welded or diffusion bonded, or even glued into bicycle-type fittings. Done properly, MIG welding can save hours of work and produce beautiful and very reliable assemblies. HOWEVER, for the normal homebuilder, who has a competent hobbyist's skill level, cannot or will not spend the money on a heat-treat oven, and/or won't be able to subject his work to the rigorous inspection that is performed by most liability-conscious manufacturers, oxy-acetylene welding provides the safest and cheapest way to fabricate a strong assembly of 4130. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX@wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:35 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Kit Fox and Avid used MIG welders on their respective 4130 fuselages. My Avid was wrecked by a commercial pilot in 1993 (stalled out at appx. 200 feet after takeoff) and the airplane was demolished. The pilot was not injured, but chromoly tubing (4130) was broken in a number of places. However, not a single MIG weld joint came apart. ...snip... ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" I like safety margins, I'll use BOTH hands (and have my wife pulling too, just to be safe). Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Gower" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower > > DJ, > > Just do a some testing. Can you break the broom handle with on hand? > > If you can't, then is OK to use it as a control stick. The force > aplied is important. If there are no safety belts and when your plane > goes inverted, then the control stick has to be 4130 to hold you from > falling off the plane :-) :-) :-) > > Saludos > Gary Gower. > > --- DJ Vegh wrote: > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > IMO flight controls should be made from 4130 steel (and in some > > carefully > > engineered cases, aluminum). > > > > Would you use a broom handle for a control stick?! > > > > DJ > > > > :) > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "hjarrett" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:12 PM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > > > > > > > There is nothing wrong (engineering wise, I'm not going to the > > "originality" > > > place again) with a wood rudder bar. I find the feel better than > > tubes > > > through soft sole shoes. The max force is limited by the shear or > > bending > > > strength (which ever is lower) of the pivot pin that attaches the > > bar > > > (unless the hard point the pivot goes through in the fuselage is > > weaker). > > > Remember, when you are being chased by a lion, you don't need to be > > faster > > > than the lion. You only need to be faster than the guy next to > > you. Just > > > make sure the bar is stronger than the weakest part that the bar > > load > > passes > > > through. Once you know the strength of the pivot pin, just hang > > the bar > > > from a piece of rod stock or a bolt of the same material in double > > shear > > > (only half the load is in the pin that way) and hang half the pivot > > strength > > > load from each end of the bar. If it doesn't fail, it's OK. > > > Hank J > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:38 PM > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > > > > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/6/04 10:36:17 AM Central Daylight Time, > > > > douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > > << Can you guys estimate the max amount of force put on the > > rudder bar? > > > > > > > > Mine is made of Ash wood which is very strong, I'm just a little > > > concerned > > > > that there's not enough "meat" left around the cable bolts for my > > taste. > > > > > > > > Any ideas? >> > > > > > > > > Douwe, > > > > Ash wood is the Wrong material for a rudder bar. Remove it, and > > build > > one > > > > the way the plans show. The rudder bar is one of the few things > > the > > plans > > > call > > > > out specifically 'Rudder bar is chrome molly tube' (4130 steel). > > > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" You think WE are sane? We play with wood and cloth airplanes with old Ford engines that we build in basements and garages (and occasionally put in a wood stick and rudder bar). ;-) Hank (Certifiable nut case) J ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > they didn't wear 'chutes either, so I'm not so sure the mentality back then > was completely sane. > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cgalley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > > > Most WW1 planes had a rudder bar of wood and they did go into combat. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "DJ Vegh" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > > > sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by the > > > opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me a > > > wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls gives > me > > > the heebie jeebies. > > > > > > Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control > > stick/torque > > > tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the > > rudder > > > bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". > > > > > > Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum > > pulleys.... > > > I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much > cheaper. > > > That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... huh?! > > > > > > ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton > > twine > > > instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably > strong > > > enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home > Depot > > > for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that shit > up > > > in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood > > pulleys > > > I was thinking about. > > > > > > well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to > work > > > and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been > > kicking > > > around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) > > > > > > hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a > minute, > > > I already have one of those. > > > > > > > > > DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right now. > > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're > > coming > > > to take me away haa haa > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "hjarrett" > > > > > > > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as > > the > > > > properties of the material you select along with the section > > > characteristics > > > > of the part will carry the loads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" Had me scared there for a minute DJ. Need some more smiley faces. I started to take you serious for a minute. ;-) Hank (Don't use no granny knots unless you test em) J ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by the > opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me a > wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls gives me > the heebie jeebies. > > Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control stick/torque > tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the rudder > bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". > > Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum pulleys.... > I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much cheaper. > That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... huh?! > > ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton twine > instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably strong > enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home Depot > for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that shit up > in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood pulleys > I was thinking about. > > well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to work > and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been kicking > around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) > > hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a minute, > I already have one of those. > > > DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right now. :) > > > once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're coming > to take me away haa haa > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "hjarrett" > > > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long as the > > properties of the material you select along with the section > characteristics > > of the part will carry the loads. > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:26 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" WarLOCK warLOCK, I haven't been a warLORD since I was in the Navy, and then I wasn't any good at it. Didn't even burn any villages. ;-) Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com > > If you fly stradling a broomstick, would that qualify you as a Witch or a Warlord? Is there a space in your pilot log for that? > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:54 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" They did "invent" the parachute during the war. ----- Original Message ----- From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" > > You think WE are sane? We play with wood and cloth airplanes with old Ford > engines that we build in basements and garages (and occasionally put in a > wood stick and rudder bar). ;-) > Hank (Certifiable nut case) J > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DJ Vegh" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:30 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > they didn't wear 'chutes either, so I'm not so sure the mentality back > then > > was completely sane. > > > > DJ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "cgalley" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:39 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" > > > > > > Most WW1 planes had a rudder bar of wood and they did go into combat. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "DJ Vegh" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:14 AM > > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: rudder bar pressures & DJ's sarcasm > > > > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > > > > > > > sure... of course you can use anything you want. I still stand by > the > > > > opinion that flight controls should be steel. call me crazy, call me > a > > > > wussy, wimp, idiot, whatever but wood for primary flight controls > gives > > me > > > > the heebie jeebies. > > > > > > > > Won't be long before some folks want to make the entire control > > > stick/torque > > > > tube from wood..... maybe they'll figure "hell, if it works for the > > > rudder > > > > bar, landing gear and struts.... why not the whole damn thing". > > > > > > > > Come to think of it.... I spent a crapload of $$ on MS aluminum > > > pulleys.... > > > > I shoulda turned them from Alder. Man that would have been much > > cheaper. > > > > That's probably what the Fisherman will do on his next project ... > huh?! > > > > > > > > ohhh... just thought of something else..... why not use a good cotton > > > twine > > > > instead of galvenized control cable? The proper guage is probably > > strong > > > > enough and it's really cheap. I've seen 100ft. spools of it at Home > > Depot > > > > for less than $5. Don't need to Nicopress either... just tie that > shit > > up > > > > in a really good granny knot.... ought to work great with those wood > > > pulleys > > > > I was thinking about. > > > > > > > > well.... I gotta run... I've only got an hour before I have to go to > > work > > > > and I need to finish the drawings for the Oak engine mount I've been > > > kicking > > > > around. (TIG, MIG, Oxy.... forget that crap... let's use GLUE) > > > > > > > > hmmm..... a wood propeller that sound's like a good...... wait a > > minute, > > > > I already have one of those. > > > > > > > > > > > > DJ <----- do not take this guy seriously, he's being an ass right > now. > > > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > once again.... please please please do not archive ..... they're > > > coming > > > > to take me away haa haa > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "hjarrett" > > > > > > > > > You can make ANYTHING in an airplane from anything you want as long > as > > > the > > > > > properties of the material you select along with the section > > > > characteristics > > > > > of the part will carry the loads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:18 PM PST US From: Don Morris Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb icing <000b01c495a7$95ca80d0$0201a8c0@Joe2> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Don Morris Howdy. Just a couple of notes on carb ice - it happens, and it is bad - particularly in an aircraft where you really want that power. Traditional air cooled aircraft engines use heated induction air to melt the ice off. As mentioned, this robs an engine of power due to the fact that heated air is less dense than cool air. Heated air, however, this isn't the only way. A water cooled engine has other options - and the model A is water cooled. Here, we can use water cooling technology (although more advanced than a Model A). Hence, the heated plate. It works differently than a typical aircraft carb heat. It simply warms the carbuerator up to the point that ice cannot form on it and clog it. The ice simply makes its way into the engine, melts, and goes the same way it would go in a fuel injected engine - it just runs through. Power is not appreciably affected, because the air temperature is not appreciably affected - just the temperature of the walls. Some carbs also do the same thing with electric heat. Thats the theory. Unfortuanately, I can't help on the practise, as I have neither a falcon plate or a Model A engine. My Subaru uses the same technology, however, and I will not need carb heat. (An alternate air source, however, is still a good idea.) -Don >Carb icing doesn't occur in the manifold but in the carburetor itself, at >the venturi. It is the adiabatic cooling, caused by the drop in pressure at >the venturi, that causes the moisture in the air to condense out of the >airflow and freeze, when there is enough moisture in the air. Carburetor >heat raises the temperature of the incoming air to the point where the ice >melts. > >Having the water-heated plate would still heat the air going into the >cylinders but would probably not remove any ice formed in the venturi >upstream of the plate. >So, having the plate hot all the time would rob you of power and would >probably not do any good as carb heat. > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:25 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb icing --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike" The heated carburetor idea sounds good but there isn't near as much aviaiton history with liquid cooled engines as aircooled. I guess I'd like to see a lot of other people successfully use the water-heated plate idea before I'm willing to risk an off-field landing to prove such a concept. Does anyone have much AIRCRAFT experience with a heated carburetor plate in lieu of carb heat air? (Doesn't have to Model A Piets.) My old datsun 510 used to ice up all the time in rain once the manifold heat duct fell off, but I'd just coast to the side of the road and in 2-3 minutes the ice would be gone. I wouldn't want to exercise such a care-free attitude in an airplane. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Morris" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: carb icing > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Don Morris > > Howdy. > > Just a couple of notes on carb ice - it happens, and it is bad - > particularly in an aircraft where you really want that power. > Traditional air cooled aircraft engines use heated induction air to melt > the ice off. As mentioned, this robs an engine of power due to the fact > that heated air is less dense than cool air. Heated air, however, this > isn't the only way. A water cooled engine has other options - and the > model A is water cooled. Here, we can use water cooling technology > (although more advanced than a Model A). Hence, the heated plate. It > works differently than a typical aircraft carb heat. It simply warms > the carbuerator up to the point that ice cannot form on it and clog it. > The ice simply makes its way into the engine, melts, and goes the same > way it would go in a fuel injected engine - it just runs through. > Power is not appreciably affected, because the air temperature is not > appreciably affected - just the temperature of the walls. Some carbs > also do the same thing with electric heat. > > Thats the theory. Unfortuanately, I can't help on the practise, as I > have neither a falcon plate or a Model A engine. My Subaru uses the > same technology, however, and I will not need carb heat. (An alternate > air source, however, is still a good idea.) > > -Don > > >Carb icing doesn't occur in the manifold but in the carburetor itself, at > >the venturi. It is the adiabatic cooling, caused by the drop in pressure at > >the venturi, that causes the moisture in the air to condense out of the > >airflow and freeze, when there is enough moisture in the air. Carburetor > >heat raises the temperature of the incoming air to the point where the ice > >melts. > > > > >Having the water-heated plate would still heat the air going into the > >cylinders but would probably not remove any ice formed in the venturi > >upstream of the plate. > >So, having the plate hot all the time would rob you of power and would > >probably not do any good as carb heat. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:37 PM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Pietenpol-List: Horizontal stab question --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rick Holland Hey guys, what holds the horizontal stab to the fuselage, just the two bolts through the 'main beam' through the top longerons and the wires? It and the vert stab are not glued to each other are they? Do most people use two blind nuts or regular stop nuts on the underside of the top longerons for the stab bolts? Thanks Rick Holland ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:22 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding From my one person experience so take it for what it's worth: Contrary to all the folk lore, Gas welding is not that hard to learn. I didn't want to weld my fittings but after a year of asking around the EAA people no one was interested in helping me weld or even help teach me, wonderfully helpful people these EAAers.. So I took a beginning class at a craft center here in town (it wasn't that good of a class) I bought some books and the EAA tape on welding (It was only OK, thankfully Chris Bobka helped me get it for half price so it was worth the money. He's good EAA type people only wish he live closer. Hey Chris want to move to California,? the house next door to me is for sale, 1020 sqft 3bd 1 1/2 bath "only" $325,000. I'd even let you borrow my tools.) Anyway, I bought a gas welding setup for $350 bucks and started practicing, after half my 40cf (?) smallish tanks I was making good welds. After the tank was gone I was comfortable with my welding ability. Probably not always perfect but I'm confidant they are good welds. It's not really that hard and I am glad I learned how to weld. Now I want to learn how to do real metal work (I never took metal shop class in high school). A good article to read is called "Zen and the Art of the Weld Puddle", by Budd Davisson. http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html I have recently purchased a smaller welding torch, a Meco from Tinmantech.com, it works better then my Victor knock-off. Don't be afraid of welding like I was. It's really not that hard to learn how to weld. Oxy-Acetylene is a very good way to weld both 4130 and Mild steel and cheaper then TIG. You shouldn't braze 4130 (yes it can be done) but if you are building to the plans you can braze the mild steel BHP calls for. What you say? Yes, BHP does not call for 4130 everywhere (he actually calls 1430 cro-molly I think) and that's ok because he designed it for the mild steel and it would be plenty strong. I used 4130 because I didn't know better. Oh well, at least it will be stronger. Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Botsford To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Next month's issue of Sport Aviation will have the first in a series of articles on welding aircraft alloy steels. It will be very helpful to those interested in welding parts for aircraft use ( and others as well). The series is authored by a gentleman named Scott Helzer. He recently conducted an extensive research program on the methodology of welding for aircraft. I think this will be very helpful and put to rest a lot of speculation as to what are the best practices. Jon Botsford ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ash To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding I agree with this. I'm a computer nerd by profession, but I also spent 3 years at two nights a week leaning welding. I certified on stick, and was working on a MIG cert when the program came unglued. All things being equal, gas is easier to learn. There are those who have learned on MIG without ever learning gas and claim it's easier, but I question whether their welds would hold up to strength testing and x-ray inspection. With gas, you've got your heat source in one hand and your filler rod in the other, which makes it easier to control how much of each you use. On a MIG (GMAW) welder, both heat and feed rate are controlled by knobs on the face of the welder. When you pull the trigger, you get what you've set up. If you don't know how to translate what is happening when you strike a weld, you risk having problems. A good MIG weld will sound like eggs frying. Personally, if you don't understand how to gas weld, you've got no business welding with MIG. When learning to weld, you're usually given a flat plate and you weld in a straight line. This doesn't require you to reposition your arms or body to complete the weld. Once you've learned this, then you learn to go around curves, specifically pipe. I started on the pipe cert (using stick (SMAW)) with 6" diameter pipe, but decided I had no personal use for it and moved on to MIG. The largest diameter you've going to see doing a 4130 tube fuselage is going to be an inch or so. Unless you've got a rotating jig, this is going to require you to wrap yourself around the joint as you weld it up. And worse yet, it's in clusters, so you've got all this other stuff in the way, which means you're going to be crawling through this thing like a jungle gym. My guess is you're going to have to start and stop a full-circle weld of these diameters at least 3 times (maybe 2, if you're a good contortionist), just to get positioned. Each time creates the possibility of some weakness, but if you start and stop correctly, you can control this. Everything I've read about using TIG (GTAW) on 4130 tubing requires the welder to go back and normalize the weld area, because the heat is applied to a very localized area and the surrounding area gets very little. I've seen a bunch of welds in which the joint held OK, but the tubing broke right next to the weld because it was too brittle. The only thing I like more about TIG in this application is that gas can be prone to inclusions (unwanted stuff embedded in the weld), where it is really minimized with TIG. But I don't think the difference here is enough to worry about. If I had a TIG rig, I'd personally do my fuselage with TIG, then go back and normalize with gas. But I don't, so mine will be gas welded. I couldn't really justify the $1400 for the Lincoln 175 at Sun 'n Fun the last 2 years, and this is about the lowest I'd go for a good TIG machine. Besides, a gas rig is cheaper than MIG or TIG, unless you've got acccess to somebody else's equipment. Although I personally buy my gas bottles, they can also be leased for a short or long term. Sometimes I'll lease big bottles if I've got a large job to do. If you're going to buy gas equipment to do your plane, pick up a Meco, Smith, or Henrob torch body. I wouldn't try it with a full-sized Victor torch; they're good units for larger stuff, but they're just not agile enough for what you need here. Although I don't want to encourage sloppiness, we're all (I think) human here. One of the plus sides to gas is that it's more forgiving of mistakes; a less-than-perfect weld in gas will work. In MIG or TIG your odds are a lot worse. Jim Ash At 9/7/2004 06:08 AM -0700, you wrote: Please understand what the message is regarding welding. Yes, with the proper knowledge and equipment, 4130 can be MIG welded, or TIG welded or diffusion bonded, or even glued into bicycle-type fittings. Done properly, MIG welding can save hours of work and produce beautiful and very reliable assemblies. HOWEVER, for the normal homebuilder, who has a competent hobbyist's skill level, cannot or will not spend the money on a heat-treat oven, and/or won't be able to subject his work to the rigorous inspection that is performed by most liability-conscious manufacturers, oxy-acetylene welding provides the safest and cheapest way to fabricate a strong assembly of 4130. Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: N321TX@wmconnect.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 5:35 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: welding Kit Fox and Avid used MIG welders on their respective 4130 fuselages. My Avid was wrecked by a commercial pilot in 1993 (stalled out at appx. 200 feet after takeoff) and the airplane was demolished. The pilot was not injured, but chromoly tubing (4130) was broken in a number of places. However, not a single MIG weld joint came apart. ...snip...