Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:57 AM - Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! (Rcaprd@aol.com)
2. 03:22 AM - Re: Looking for a GN-1... (DJ Vegh)
3. 02:34 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Larry Nelson)
4. 03:16 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (hjarrett)
5. 03:34 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Larry Nelson)
6. 03:55 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (walt evans)
7. 04:11 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (cgalley)
8. 05:41 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Gordon Bowen)
9. 06:31 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Larry Nelson)
10. 07:52 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Rcaprd@aol.com)
11. 08:04 PM - Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
12. 08:21 PM - YEEE HAAWWW (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
13. 09:39 PM - Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! (Clif Dawson)
14. 09:54 PM - Re: Looking for a GN-1... (Steve Ruse)
15. 11:33 PM - Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 10/3/04 12:42:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca writes:
<< Clif, flying story junky, more please! :-) :-) >>
OK Clif,
I've been having a blast with this smoke system. One of the guys at the
airport gave me about 4 gallons of the smoke oil that the Pepsi Plane used in the
airshow put on at Mc Connell AFB. It looks and feels the same as baby oil,
but it sure doesn't smell the same !! I always do a Smokin' Take Off. Get the
tail up, hit the button, make a vortex curl on each side of the smoke when the
wing grabs some lift, and leave it on till I'm past the crosswind leg. I did
a flight today, a little over an hour, where I blew circles above 3 different
friends houses, and smokin' flyby's at 3 different airports. I approach the
airports extra high on short final, then pull power down to about 1300 or 1400
rpm, and put it into a sharp slip, with a very steep approach, keeping the
airspeed up to at least 65 mph, and straighten 'er up after I cross the numbers.
The smoke all blows completely under the fuselage, and makes a straight line
off runway heading, then a low fly by about 60 mph, then add in full power
about 3/4 of the way down the runway to build airspeed up over 70 mph, and
gently pull the nose up into a relatively steep departure, keeping a close eye
on
the airspeed, never letting it drop below 60 mph. When I turn around to check
out the trail, the smoke hangs in 3 separate straight lines. Pretty Cool !!
I'm going to hold the camera backwards for a shot of it, next time I think of
it. The other day, I landed using the final rays of sunlight, and I was back
taxi on the grass during the perfectly calm evening of playing in the pattern
with a J3. I put in over 1000 rpm, dragging the brakes with the stick back,
and hit the button. Plumes of smoke surrounded the cockpit, and I couldn't
see anything behind me. Drug the smoke almost all the way back to the hanger.
In the perfectly calm air, the smoke hung there for at least 15 minutes !! It
looked like ground fog. I have my own weather maker !!
Chuck G.
who ever said smoking is bad for ya ??
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for a GN-1... |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
Steve,
got some more info for you.......the guy's name selling that GN-1 in Indiana
is Brian..... his number is 574-293-3135. If youre still interested give
him a call.
DJ
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy fuel
but full radiator.
Does anyone have a simple procedure for determining
the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
_______________________________
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
The simplest (and most accurate) is to level the plane with EMPTY tanks but
ready to fly (leave "unusable" fuel in the tank). Weigh it and determine
the CG location. Then put yourself in the cockpit (in what you would wear
to fly, no cheating! Most of us seem to use our weight just before getting
into the shower but not many of us fly "buck neked". If you do, and if you
aren't a beautiful under 30 female, I don't want to know about it.) and
weigh it and determine CG again. Next, put full fuel in and repeat the
process. Don't forget to MEASURE THE GALLONS OF FUEL YOU ADD! Last, put
your backside in the cockpit with the full fuel and do it a fourth time.
Most will think this is excessive but, you wouldn't believe how often the
numbers you measure WON'T match what you calculated they "should be". Your
seat probably isn't exactly where you think it is, your tank probably
doesn't hold exactly what you think it does, the tank probably isn't exactly
where you think it is and none of our bodies CGs are where we usually think
they are.
Once you have the location of the CG on the fuselage (for each condition)
you need to measure where it falls ON THE WING CHORD. No matter what ANYONE
ELSE TELLS YOU, all that matters is where the CG is on the wing NOT THE
DISTANCE FROM THE FIREWALL, THE PROP FLANGE OR ANY OTHER PLACE. THE WING!
JUST THE WING! ONLY THE WING! There are some guys out there on some of the
groups that have stretched tails and noses and moved wings and think the CG
should still fall at the same fuselage station. I have 30 years as an
aerospace engineer and you have GOT TO TRUST ME, those guys are going to
kill someone. Keep the CG in the limits ON THE WING. You have to be in the
limits for all of the conditions you measured. If you aren't you need to
move something to make sure it is, even if it requires ballast. You haven't
had a thrill till you burn fuel from a nose tank that puts you in an aft CG
condition and fly into turbulence. Weight transfers from your body to the
seat FAST but it doesn't move the CG to help you, it just ruins the seat.
If you need help with the math or in set up methods for measuring, just ask,
but this ISN'T a place to scrimp. An incorrect CG can and will kill you.
Hank J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
> The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
> 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy fuel
> but full radiator.
>
> Does anyone have a simple procedure for determining
> the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
>
> Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
> location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
>
> =====
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Hank, I rarely fly nekkid, but I sure would like the
math procedure and I would like to know the "limits"
of where the CG falls on the wing chord.
I can do the moment arm, etc of indivual parts, but
the whole assembly is stumping me.
--- hjarrett <hjarrett@hroads.net> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett"
> <hjarrett@hroads.net>
>
> The simplest (and most accurate) is to level the
> plane with EMPTY tanks but
> ready to fly (leave "unusable" fuel in the tank).
> Weigh it and determine
> the CG location. Then put yourself in the cockpit
> (in what you would wear
> to fly, no cheating! Most of us seem to use our
> weight just before getting
> into the shower but not many of us fly "buck neked".
> If you do, and if you
> aren't a beautiful under 30 female, I don't want to
> know about it.) and
> weigh it and determine CG again. Next, put full
> fuel in and repeat the
> process. Don't forget to MEASURE THE GALLONS OF
> FUEL YOU ADD! Last, put
> your backside in the cockpit with the full fuel and
> do it a fourth time.
> Most will think this is excessive but, you wouldn't
> believe how often the
> numbers you measure WON'T match what you calculated
> they "should be". Your
> seat probably isn't exactly where you think it is,
> your tank probably
> doesn't hold exactly what you think it does, the
> tank probably isn't exactly
> where you think it is and none of our bodies CGs are
> where we usually think
> they are.
> Once you have the location of the CG on the fuselage
> (for each condition)
> you need to measure where it falls ON THE WING
> CHORD. No matter what ANYONE
> ELSE TELLS YOU, all that matters is where the CG is
> on the wing NOT THE
> DISTANCE FROM THE FIREWALL, THE PROP FLANGE OR ANY
> OTHER PLACE. THE WING!
> JUST THE WING! ONLY THE WING! There are some guys
> out there on some of the
> groups that have stretched tails and noses and moved
> wings and think the CG
> should still fall at the same fuselage station. I
> have 30 years as an
> aerospace engineer and you have GOT TO TRUST ME,
> those guys are going to
> kill someone. Keep the CG in the limits ON THE
> WING. You have to be in the
> limits for all of the conditions you measured. If
> you aren't you need to
> move something to make sure it is, even if it
> requires ballast. You haven't
> had a thrill till you burn fuel from a nose tank
> that puts you in an aft CG
> condition and fly into turbulence. Weight transfers
> from your body to the
> seat FAST but it doesn't move the CG to help you, it
> just ruins the seat.
> If you need help with the math or in set up methods
> for measuring, just ask,
> but this ISN'T a place to scrimp. An incorrect CG
> can and will kill you.
> Hank J
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson
> <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> >
> > The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
> > 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy
> fuel
> > but full radiator.
> >
> > Does anyone have a simple procedure for
> determining
> > the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
> >
> > Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
> > location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
> >
> > =====
> > Larry Nelson
> > Springfield, MO
> > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > SV/ Spirit of America
> > ARS WB0JOT
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
__________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Here's 4 programs that I used. They are the 4 different scenes that you
will run into in a Piet. Worst is pilot only with low fuel, and best is
full gross with full nose fuel. Use the one you want. Just change the
numbers and the final CG changes before your eyes!!!
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
> The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
> 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy fuel
> but full radiator.
>
> Does anyone have a simple procedure for determining
> the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
>
> Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
> location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
>
> =====
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Your warning is correct. You need to locate the CG on the wing.
However most use a convenient point on the plane as their reference or
datum. The distance that the leading edge is from that datum will be in the
computed distance to the CG. The actual CG can be referenced by subtracting
that distance. Most designers specify a distance from a datum instead of
the distance or percent of chord. Either method IF done correctly, will
work.
For further details, check AC 43.13-1B There is a complete method set up by
the FAA for weight and Balance.
Cy Galley
EAA Safety Programs Editor
Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" <hjarrett@hroads.net>
>
> The simplest (and most accurate) is to level the plane with EMPTY tanks
but
> ready to fly (leave "unusable" fuel in the tank). Weigh it and determine
> the CG location. Then put yourself in the cockpit (in what you would wear
> to fly, no cheating! Most of us seem to use our weight just before
getting
> into the shower but not many of us fly "buck neked". If you do, and if
you
> aren't a beautiful under 30 female, I don't want to know about it.) and
> weigh it and determine CG again. Next, put full fuel in and repeat the
> process. Don't forget to MEASURE THE GALLONS OF FUEL YOU ADD! Last, put
> your backside in the cockpit with the full fuel and do it a fourth time.
> Most will think this is excessive but, you wouldn't believe how often the
> numbers you measure WON'T match what you calculated they "should be".
Your
> seat probably isn't exactly where you think it is, your tank probably
> doesn't hold exactly what you think it does, the tank probably isn't
exactly
> where you think it is and none of our bodies CGs are where we usually
think
> they are.
> Once you have the location of the CG on the fuselage (for each condition)
> you need to measure where it falls ON THE WING CHORD. No matter what
ANYONE
> ELSE TELLS YOU, all that matters is where the CG is on the wing NOT THE
> DISTANCE FROM THE FIREWALL, THE PROP FLANGE OR ANY OTHER PLACE. THE WING!
> JUST THE WING! ONLY THE WING! There are some guys out there on some of
the
> groups that have stretched tails and noses and moved wings and think the
CG
> should still fall at the same fuselage station. I have 30 years as an
> aerospace engineer and you have GOT TO TRUST ME, those guys are going to
> kill someone. Keep the CG in the limits ON THE WING. You have to be in
the
> limits for all of the conditions you measured. If you aren't you need to
> move something to make sure it is, even if it requires ballast. You
haven't
> had a thrill till you burn fuel from a nose tank that puts you in an aft
CG
> condition and fly into turbulence. Weight transfers from your body to the
> seat FAST but it doesn't move the CG to help you, it just ruins the seat.
> If you need help with the math or in set up methods for measuring, just
ask,
> but this ISN'T a place to scrimp. An incorrect CG can and will kill you.
> Hank J
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson
<lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> >
> > The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
> > 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy fuel
> > but full radiator.
> >
> > Does anyone have a simple procedure for determining
> > the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
> >
> > Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
> > location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
> >
> > =====
> > Larry Nelson
> > Springfield, MO
> > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > SV/ Spirit of America
> > ARS WB0JOT
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Hank,
Excellent detailed procedure. Couldn't agree more with the pros and cons of
using anything but the LE of the wing for determining CG and limits. Adding
and subtracting ARMs to do moments, isn't brain surgery. Some guys like all
positive arms, but all homebuilts are different. Second issue, the purpose
of homebuilding is to LEARN. Learning about CG, MAC, materials limts in
construction, contruction techniques is the reason for homebuilts. It is
especially a problem when an non-builder pilot becomes PIC test pilot of a
newly bought toy someone else built from scratch.
Now to the question of Larry. Wing Chord- and CG. Just about all
straight wing (verus swept backward like a canard pusher type), I've seen
use 20% of chord for loaded forward CG limit max. (this depends on the
elevator authority available to keep the nose in the air at flare), 32% of
Chord for loaded AFT CG limit. So when you run low on fuel, and you're 300
lbs, have you slowly slid past the AFT CG limit on your wing as you burnt
off fuel, therefore going into a tail heavy unrecoverable stall, or do you
do your homework about MAC and CG limits before you start your engine?
Every homebuilder should build there own CG envelope based on Hank's
excellent procedure outlined below. Do the flight test work on the plane,
using a guideline of loaded configuration - forward CG max. 25%, Aft CG of
28%, in test loaded configuration. Maintain this very narrow CG envelope
test area until you can safely expand the loaded configuration to the max of
20% forward and max. 32% aft. and max takeoff weight configuration. Any of
you aerospace wing design Engineers can jump on these % numbers with other
hard data or facts, I'm only a reporting these numbers from observations of
many types of homebuilts with straight wings.
Every homebuilt airplane is going to have a different looking CG envelope.
Maybe sloped forward at max. fuel and max passenger wt, or maybe sloped
backward to account of fuel burn-off. This is something you learn about
homebuilts just like the fuel plumbing or wiring.
Every Pilot, by default is a TEST pilot on a homebuilt. You gotta learn or
you'll burn.
Gordon Bowen
N-1033B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
> Hank, I rarely fly nekkid, but I sure would like the
> math procedure and I would like to know the "limits"
> of where the CG falls on the wing chord.
>
> I can do the moment arm, etc of indivual parts, but
> the whole assembly is stumping me.
>
>
> --- hjarrett <hjarrett@hroads.net> wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett"
> > <hjarrett@hroads.net>
> >
> > The simplest (and most accurate) is to level the
> > plane with EMPTY tanks but
> > ready to fly (leave "unusable" fuel in the tank).
> > Weigh it and determine
> > the CG location. Then put yourself in the cockpit
> > (in what you would wear
> > to fly, no cheating! Most of us seem to use our
> > weight just before getting
> > into the shower but not many of us fly "buck neked".
> > If you do, and if you
> > aren't a beautiful under 30 female, I don't want to
> > know about it.) and
> > weigh it and determine CG again. Next, put full
> > fuel in and repeat the
> > process. Don't forget to MEASURE THE GALLONS OF
> > FUEL YOU ADD! Last, put
> > your backside in the cockpit with the full fuel and
> > do it a fourth time.
> > Most will think this is excessive but, you wouldn't
> > believe how often the
> > numbers you measure WON'T match what you calculated
> > they "should be". Your
> > seat probably isn't exactly where you think it is,
> > your tank probably
> > doesn't hold exactly what you think it does, the
> > tank probably isn't exactly
> > where you think it is and none of our bodies CGs are
> > where we usually think
> > they are.
> > Once you have the location of the CG on the fuselage
> > (for each condition)
> > you need to measure where it falls ON THE WING
> > CHORD. No matter what ANYONE
> > ELSE TELLS YOU, all that matters is where the CG is
> > on the wing NOT THE
> > DISTANCE FROM THE FIREWALL, THE PROP FLANGE OR ANY
> > OTHER PLACE. THE WING!
> > JUST THE WING! ONLY THE WING! There are some guys
> > out there on some of the
> > groups that have stretched tails and noses and moved
> > wings and think the CG
> > should still fall at the same fuselage station. I
> > have 30 years as an
> > aerospace engineer and you have GOT TO TRUST ME,
> > those guys are going to
> > kill someone. Keep the CG in the limits ON THE
> > WING. You have to be in the
> > limits for all of the conditions you measured. If
> > you aren't you need to
> > move something to make sure it is, even if it
> > requires ballast. You haven't
> > had a thrill till you burn fuel from a nose tank
> > that puts you in an aft CG
> > condition and fly into turbulence. Weight transfers
> > from your body to the
> > seat FAST but it doesn't move the CG to help you, it
> > just ruins the seat.
> > If you need help with the math or in set up methods
> > for measuring, just ask,
> > but this ISN'T a place to scrimp. An incorrect CG
> > can and will kill you.
> > Hank J
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> >
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson
> > <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
> > > 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy
> > fuel
> > > but full radiator.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a simple procedure for
> > determining
> > > the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks?
> > >
> > > Also, the Bill Rewey seminar listed a maximum aft
> > > location for the CG but I cannot find my notes.
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Larry Nelson
> > > Springfield, MO
> > > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > > SV/ Spirit of America
> > > ARS WB0JOT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________
> > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > > http://vote.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
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> =====
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
I appreciate all the advice and have copied the
programs. I also got out my old EAA books from back in
the late 60's.
Please remember that my airplane has been flying since
1989, just not with me in it. I am wanting to
ascertain, before I lift off, that my wing is in the
correct position for my impressive bulk. Howard
Henderson is a thin man, and Joe Santana, the previous
owner, is 170#.
thanks again.
--- Gordon Bowen <gbowen@ptialaska.net> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen"
> <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
>
> Hank,
> Excellent detailed procedure. Couldn't agree more
> with the pros and cons of
> using anything but the LE of the wing for
> determining CG and limits. Adding
> and subtracting ARMs to do moments, isn't brain
> surgery. Some guys like all
> positive arms, but all homebuilts are different.
> Second issue, the purpose
> of homebuilding is to LEARN. Learning about CG,
> MAC, materials limts in
> construction, contruction techniques is the reason
> for homebuilts. It is
> especially a problem when an non-builder pilot
> becomes PIC test pilot of a
> newly bought toy someone else built from scratch.
>
> Now to the question of Larry. Wing Chord- and CG.
> Just about all
> straight wing (verus swept backward like a canard
> pusher type), I've seen
> use 20% of chord for loaded forward CG limit max.
> (this depends on the
> elevator authority available to keep the nose in the
> air at flare), 32% of
> Chord for loaded AFT CG limit. So when you run low
> on fuel, and you're 300
> lbs, have you slowly slid past the AFT CG limit on
> your wing as you burnt
> off fuel, therefore going into a tail heavy
> unrecoverable stall, or do you
> do your homework about MAC and CG limits before you
> start your engine?
>
> Every homebuilder should build there own CG envelope
> based on Hank's
> excellent procedure outlined below. Do the flight
> test work on the plane,
> using a guideline of loaded configuration - forward
> CG max. 25%, Aft CG of
> 28%, in test loaded configuration. Maintain this
> very narrow CG envelope
> test area until you can safely expand the loaded
> configuration to the max of
> 20% forward and max. 32% aft. and max takeoff weight
> configuration. Any of
> you aerospace wing design Engineers can jump on
> these % numbers with other
> hard data or facts, I'm only a reporting these
> numbers from observations of
> many types of homebuilts with straight wings.
>
> Every homebuilt airplane is going to have a
> different looking CG envelope.
> Maybe sloped forward at max. fuel and max passenger
> wt, or maybe sloped
> backward to account of fuel burn-off. This is
> something you learn about
> homebuilts just like the fuel plumbing or wiring.
>
> Every Pilot, by default is a TEST pilot on a
> homebuilt. You gotta learn or
> you'll burn.
>
> Gordon Bowen
> N-1033B
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson
> <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hank, I rarely fly nekkid, but I sure would like
> the
> > math procedure and I would like to know the
> "limits"
> > of where the CG falls on the wing chord.
> >
> > I can do the moment arm, etc of indivual parts,
> but
> > the whole assembly is stumping me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- hjarrett <hjarrett@hroads.net> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett"
> > > <hjarrett@hroads.net>
> > >
> > > The simplest (and most accurate) is to level the
> > > plane with EMPTY tanks but
> > > ready to fly (leave "unusable" fuel in the
> tank).
> > > Weigh it and determine
> > > the CG location. Then put yourself in the
> cockpit
> > > (in what you would wear
> > > to fly, no cheating! Most of us seem to use our
> > > weight just before getting
> > > into the shower but not many of us fly "buck
> neked".
> > > If you do, and if you
> > > aren't a beautiful under 30 female, I don't want
> to
> > > know about it.) and
> > > weigh it and determine CG again. Next, put full
> > > fuel in and repeat the
> > > process. Don't forget to MEASURE THE GALLONS OF
> > > FUEL YOU ADD! Last, put
> > > your backside in the cockpit with the full fuel
> and
> > > do it a fourth time.
> > > Most will think this is excessive but, you
> wouldn't
> > > believe how often the
> > > numbers you measure WON'T match what you
> calculated
> > > they "should be". Your
> > > seat probably isn't exactly where you think it
> is,
> > > your tank probably
> > > doesn't hold exactly what you think it does, the
> > > tank probably isn't exactly
> > > where you think it is and none of our bodies CGs
> are
> > > where we usually think
> > > they are.
> > > Once you have the location of the CG on the
> fuselage
> > > (for each condition)
> > > you need to measure where it falls ON THE WING
> > > CHORD. No matter what ANYONE
> > > ELSE TELLS YOU, all that matters is where the CG
> is
> > > on the wing NOT THE
> > > DISTANCE FROM THE FIREWALL, THE PROP FLANGE OR
> ANY
> > > OTHER PLACE. THE WING!
> > > JUST THE WING! ONLY THE WING! There are some
> guys
> > > out there on some of the
> > > groups that have stretched tails and noses and
> moved
> > > wings and think the CG
> > > should still fall at the same fuselage station.
> I
> > > have 30 years as an
> > > aerospace engineer and you have GOT TO TRUST ME,
> > > those guys are going to
> > > kill someone. Keep the CG in the limits ON THE
> > > WING. You have to be in the
> > > limits for all of the conditions you measured.
> If
> > > you aren't you need to
> > > move something to make sure it is, even if it
> > > requires ballast. You haven't
> > > had a thrill till you burn fuel from a nose tank
> > > that puts you in an aft CG
> > > condition and fly into turbulence. Weight
> transfers
> > > from your body to the
> > > seat FAST but it doesn't move the CG to help
> you, it
> > > just ruins the seat.
> > > If you need help with the math or in set up
> methods
> > > for measuring, just ask,
> > > but this ISN'T a place to scrimp. An incorrect
> CG
> > > can and will kill you.
> > > Hank J
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> > > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry
> Nelson
> > > <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I
> am a
> > > > 218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with
> empy
> > > fuel
>
=== message truncated ===
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
__________________________________
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 10/3/04 4:34:58 PM Central Daylight Time,
lnelson208@yahoo.com writes:
<< The previous owner of my plane weighs 170#. I am a
218# fatty. We have weighed the plane with empy fuel
but full radiator.
Does anyone have a simple procedure for determining
the CG, with my fat rear in place and full tanks? >>
Larry,
CG has always been a popular topic of Pietenpol aircraft. Last year at
Brodhead, Doc Moser pointed to the last two digits of my registration number
and said "Chuck, that's the most aft CG I've ever seen !!"
If your plane is in the same configuration as the previous owner, I can
all but guarantee that with you in the cockpit, you will be AFT of the aft
limit of the Center of Gravity...a dangerous place to be. Pietenpol's are
notoriously tail heavy, probably due to the fact that Bernard Pietenpol weighed
about
160 to 170 lbs.
B.H.P. called out the center of gravity range to be between 1/4 and 1/3
of the Chord. This translates to 25% to 33 1/3% of the chord. The chord is
60", so your C G range is between 15" and 20" aft of the leading edge.
The aft limit called out by BHP has always concerned me. Very few
aircraft have an aft limit that far back. I believe it is due to the undercambered
airfoil. This airfoil has a LOT of negative pitching moment, allowing the aft
CG limit to be so far back. If your Pietenpol does not have the airfoil
called out in the plans, you CAN NOT use the aft limit called out.
If you look at the last few pages of the 'Pietenpol Operation Manual'
that I sent you, you can see how to compute C G with paper & pencil. Simple
math, but very unforgiving of mistakes. Do the math three times !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! |
Chuck... Now you should teach yourself how to SKYWRITE.
Terry B.
Message 12
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Howdy gang...
I am WAY PUMPED up! Still on a roll getting things done on the project and
getting a little closer every week.
Just got home from a great weekend up at Jim Markle's house. I took some
small welded steel parts up and Jim gave me an indoctination to the art of powder
coating. And I am impressed. Either Jim is one super artist.... or
powdercoating is waayyy cool..... or BOTH!! I think its both! :)
We did my rudder pedals, both control sticks and the tail spring assembly,
and some other miscellaneous parts. They turned out georgeous. I'll post some
pictures soon. Thanks Jim, Julia, Ethan, and Ben for a great time, wonderful
hospitality, and for the help. What a boost it is to have friends like you.
Thats what this group is all about.
Everyone keep building... hope to see you at Broadheat next year.
Terry B.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Chuck, you're having way to much fun! :-) :-)
I love it!
Maybe it's time for a Pietenpol " Red Bull " race. :-)
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 10/3/04 12:42:22 AM Central Daylight Time,
> CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca writes:
>
> << Clif, flying story junky, more please! :-) :-) >>
>
> OK Clif,
> I've been having a blast with this smoke system. One of the guys at the
> airport gave me about 4 gallons of the smoke oil that the Pepsi Plane used
in the
> airshow put on at Mc Connell AFB.
>
> Chuck G.
> who ever said smoking is bad for ya ??
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Looking for a GN-1... |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Ruse" <steve@wotelectronics.com>
Great DJ, thanks. I will give him a call tomorrow.
Steve
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DJ Vegh
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Looking for a GN-1...
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
Steve,
got some more info for you.......the guy's name selling that GN-1 in Indiana
is Brian..... his number is 574-293-3135. If youre still interested give
him a call.
DJ
---
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !! |
Check this out;
http://www.archive.org/movies/movieslisting-browse.php?collectionprelinger&catAviation:%20Skywriting
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: BARNSTMR@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Smoke 'em if ya got 'em !!
Chuck... Now you should teach yourself how to SKYWRITE.
Terry B.
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