Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:11 AM - Re: First FLight of NX899JP (Jack Phillips)
2. 05:44 AM - hard wire rigging (Oscar Zuniga)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: hard wire rigging (Michael D Cuy)
4. 06:23 AM - wire ferrules (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 09:40 AM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
6. 09:46 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Larry Nelson)
7. 10:56 AM - cowl views (Michael D Cuy)
8. 11:21 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Michael D Cuy)
9. 11:48 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (BARNSTMR@aol.com)
10. 02:58 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Gordon Bowen)
11. 03:15 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Carl D. Vought)
12. 04:19 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Larry Nelson)
13. 06:54 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Galen Hutcheson)
14. 10:50 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Rcaprd@aol.com)
15. 10:55 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Clif Dawson)
16. 10:58 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Rcaprd@aol.com)
17. 11:04 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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Subject: | First FLight of NX899JP |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" <pietflyr@bellsouth.net>
Continental A65.
Thanks,
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Nelson
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First FLight of NX899JP
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Jack, congrats!!
What engine did you use?
--- Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen
> Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
> Yeah, just follow the "Yellow Brick Road" or better
> yet a set of railroad tracks that point toward the
> direction you want to go. They always follow the
> lowest terrain. But look out for those tunnels or
> you
> could have a clipped winged Piet. :)
>
> Doc
> --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> Rcaprd@aol.com
> >
> > A BIG Congratulations, Jack !! Certainly a
> > milestone !!
> > And I'm sure you'll find your way through the
> > Appalachians to get to Brodhead.
> >
> > Chuck G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
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>
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
__________________________________
Message 2
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Subject: | hard wire rigging |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Regarding the use of "hard wire" for rigging, as per the old Piet plans,
there has been much back-and-forth discussion of that over the years. Most
of it is along the lines of "we have much better, modern stuff these days"
and will tell you not to do it. However, looking through the great majority
of details in the old Flying & Glider Manuals will show that they use wire
with twisted "ferrules" almost exclusively.
In the archives on the BPA site somewhere (the Grant McLaren site), is an
article on making a tool to form the wire ferrules. It also shows how to
properly install them. Again, you'll probably hear considerable nay-saying
about this and maybe also about how a ferrule with a round inner shape does
not properly secure the profile of two wires side-by-side and that the
ferrule needs to be flattened for proper installation. I don't know about
all that but I had planned to make one of those ferrule-and-loop tools and
get a spool of wire from McMaster, make up a representative samples using
wire ferrules vs. conventional thimble and aircraft cable, and test them
both to failure. Many of the nay-sayers express concern about hardening,
embrittlement, and/or fatigue of the wire where it forms the ferrule and
eye, and that would no doubt be the point of failure. I just don't believe
they would fail at any loading lower than would occur at the point of
connection of the tab that connects the wires to the wood framing of the
stabilizers, or of some of the other construction points.
For the really authentic old-time look, the wire bracing is really
interesting to me and I believe it can be done safely and adequately using
the right tools and methods. That, however, is my own personal opinion and
is completely NOT flight tested!
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: hard wire rigging |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Oscar-- my feeling has always been that the wood structure will fail long
before any cable/turnbuckle/hard-wire support braces would.
I think either cables or hard wire are fine back there. If you want the
original look, learn and do the hard wire deal, if not don't use
anything more than 3/32" cables back there or you'll be adding weight where
you don't need any more strength.
Mike C.
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
List;
Sorry if I sounded a little harsh with my last post about hard wire bracing
and ferrules. As an engineer, I'm usually more logical, analytical, and
unemotional about these things. Let me rephrase my earlier comments by just
saying that there are some excellent posts in the archive on this, such as
Greg Cardinal's one from 2/28/01 explaining his investigations and comments.
He also references an early paper on various wires, cables, and
connections (available as a NACA report but you have to search for it with
Google and get it off a British technical paper site. I just printed it out
moments ago myself).
The bottom line is that the typical wire and ferrule method produces
connections that aren't as strong as the wire itself. My point was that
that may be plenty strong enough and probably stronger than other links in
the chain. Greg's bottom line was that pull testing should be done.
I haven't done that, but it should be very easy to do.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: oil & oil temp questions |
Its hard to close up airflow around the engine case on an "exposed cylinder" cowl.
Some how the airflow needs to be blocked around the engine case for winter
flying in these continentals. We have this problem on the '39 T-craft. I noticed
some of the Piet builders have done a more meticulous job of fitting the
cowl around the engine nose than others. Perhaps these are the guys up north.
I noticed especially that Steve E's cowl seems to block a lot of air from
the engine case area than ... say... a J3 type nose cowl. Check out the attached
pictures to see what I mean. I couldn't find a good picture of Mike Cuy's
cowl. I seem to recall it does a better job of blocking air around the engine
case. Mike..Steve... have you had any cold-weather low oil temp problems?
--
Terry L. Bowden
ph 254-715-4773
fax 254-853-3805
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Yes, I am still messing with the weight and balance
issue for N444MH. I have opened up the treasure trove
of boxes I got when I bought Howard Hendersons Piet
from Joe Santana. (I have a TON of newsletters to go
through, WOW!!)
I did find Howards original weight and balance calcs.
I took his work and made an Excel spreadsheet. Howard
used the firewall as datum, and then made an
adjustment in the form to locate the CG from the LE of
the wing.
Here are my conclusions:
It is a given that with full tank and one skinny FAA
type 175# passenger, Howards CG was 20.4 aft of the
LE.
Inserting an obese 222# person moves that CG to 21.2
aft of the LE. Am I correct to assume that is about
1.2" too far aft? As I burn fuel off to 12# of fuel,
the CG moves to 21.1" aft of the LE.
Moving the wing (and the weight and moment of the
fuel) back 2 creates a CG at 19.3 aft of the CG.
Consuming fuel down to 12# moves the CG to 19.1# aft
of the CG
Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am
about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly
the old girl.
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
_______________________________
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Message 7
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|
Terry-- I have not had any low oil temp problems that I know of. Here are
two photos, one courtesy of Corky, the other my cowl.
Jack Phillips and I have very similar cowls, Frank Pavliga, Steve E. Most
planes like a Champ, Piet have a hole just below the prop
to cool the engine case in the summer and then duct tape over that in the
winter. There are some places (univar, Wag RipOff, etc.)
that sell insulated "jackets" or coats that snap over your oil tank to keep
it warmer in the winter.
My oil temps in the summer run about 170 to 185 or 190 at the most.......in
the winter on say a 40 F day they run about 120-140, depending
on how long I can stand it to let it warm up.
Mike C.
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Larry-- you are on the right track. Move the wing. It will fly mucho better.
I have flown mine near the 19" aft of CG limit when low on fuel and it
feels "greasy". Does that
make any sense. Like a car on snow covered roads where you think you are
in control but sometimes
not.
They just fly weird when they get towards the aft CG. Flaring takes very
little as the nose wants to come up pronto.
The thing even cruises in a tail low position and you have to hold forward
stick to keep from climbing.
If all goes well you should be able to use the same X brace cables and
turnbuckles after you tilt the wing back.
Go two inches and have it over with:))
Mike
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com
Larry,
Instead of relying on the weight numbers taken from years ago, I recommend that
you go ahead and weigh the airplane for yourself. You never know what items
could have been changed since then. Probably not much....but you still never
know.
For safety's sake...
--
Terry L. Bowden
ph 254-715-4773
fax 254-853-3805
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Larry there are some much more simple solutions than moving the wing. You
simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of lead
in a secured position somewhere forward of the empty plane's CG.
I've got a Cozy IV. The damn thing will fall over on it's rear prop unless
you put 40# in the nose area. The min. front seat weight is 250#. Some FAA
skinny guys 170# guys have to tote around an extra 20# of lead shot out in
the nose so they can fly alone. So ALL IS NOT LOST.
Number one chore- Go thru the procedure that was outlined in earlier
posting. Find out exactly where the loaded CG is with you and a full tank
of fuel. Using the LE of the wing as datum. Mark that point on the wing.
Your wing should have a chord of approx. 60". Your loaded CG (you and a
passenger) with an empty gas tank can never fall back of 33% of chord or 20"
behind the LE of the wing.
Now set a limit for your plane for how much weight you're gonna allow in the
front seat and how much the pilot has max. can weight. For example 200#
passenger and #250 pilot. Plus 20 gallons of fuel at 6 #/gal, does this
exceed you Gross max weight on your certification. You have to place
limits. on each group of things. Baggage, passenger, fuel, pilot, stuff
etc.
NOW- and only after you've collected the data you need above. Calculate
where and how much ballast you'd have to put somewhere secure in the engine
compartment or in front of the fuel tank or anywhere out in front of the LE
of the wing. In order to assure, when you're at max. passenger weight and
you're at max. pilot weight and you've got empty fuel tanks. You never ever
have that loaded configuration GC slid back behind the 20" from LE.
Remember as you are flying along with max. fuel, as it burns off, you're
loaded CG is sliding back toward the 20" mark.
NOW- determine if your new loaded configuration of ballast plus fuel plus
people puts you loaded CG in front of 25% of chord, or 15" from the LE.
Fully loaded. This number is a little more flexible and could be 20-25% due
to the authority of your horizonal stab and your elevator. IF your elevator
can't lift the nose off the ground at normal takeoff speed, then it's not
got enough authority. You'll have to give up a some ballast and some max.
pilot weight.
All is not lost.
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, hence
clamorous to be led" ; )...................Mencken
Gordon Bowen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Yes, I am still messing with the weight and balance
> issue for N444MH. I have opened up the treasure trove
> of boxes I got when I bought Howard Hendersons Piet
> from Joe Santana. (I have a TON of newsletters to go
> through, WOW!!)
>
> I did find Howards original weight and balance calcs.
> I took his work and made an Excel spreadsheet. Howard
> used the firewall as datum, and then made an
> adjustment in the form to locate the CG from the LE of
> the wing.
>
> Here are my conclusions:
>
> It is a given that with full tank and one skinny FAA
> type 175# passenger, Howards CG was 20.4" aft of the
> LE.
>
> Inserting an obese 222# person moves that CG to 21.2"
> aft of the LE. Am I correct to assume that is about
> 1.2" too far aft? As I burn fuel off to 12# of fuel,
> the CG moves to 21.1" aft of the LE.
>
> Moving the wing (and the weight and moment of the
> fuel) back 2" creates a CG at 19.3" aft of the CG.
>
> Consuming fuel down to 12# moves the CG to 19.1# aft
> of the CG
>
> Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am
> about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly
> the old girl.
>
>
> =====
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
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Subject: | Re: oil & oil temp questions |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl D. Vought" <carbarvo@knology.net>
I used to dress the same way when I drove my 1956 Jaguar XK140 roadster in
the winter. It was my main means of transport and I only put the top up
when it was cold AND raining. I LUV that snowmobile suit!...Carl Vought
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Galen Hutcheson
<wacopitts@yahoo.com> wrote :
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson
<wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
> Hey Chuck,
>
> I used to fly the old Bird biplane in the winter and I
> wore a snowmobile suit. Works pretty good too.
> Insulated boots and gloves and you can get right cozy
> in open cockpit. Coldest days a ski mask works too.
>
> Doc
> --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 10/7/04 6:23:45 PM Central
> > Daylight Time,
> > horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
> >
> > << Also, I have noticed that my oil temp has dropped
> > since air temps are
> > going down. I'm wondering if it might be a good
> > idea to make some baffle plates
> > for colder temps? >>
> >
> > Dick,
> > I have the same concerns. My oil temp hardly gets
> > above 140 on the cooler
> > days. I think that's not hot enough. I'm curious
> > what others have done.
> > When it's below 50, I dress warm, and I can get at
> > least 4 or 5 circuits in
> > the pattern before my body heat is all gone !!
> >
> > Chuck G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Terry, we weighed the plane and she is within about 6#
of Howards original weights, even with the tailwheel
instead of skid and with the doodle-bug brakes that
Joe Santana installed.
--- BARNSTMR@aol.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> BARNSTMR@aol.com
>
> Larry,
> Instead of relying on the weight numbers taken from
> years ago, I recommend that you go ahead and weigh
> the airplane for yourself. You never know what
> items could have been changed since then. Probably
> not much....but you still never know.
> For safety's sake...
> --
> Terry L. Bowden
> ph 254-715-4773
> fax 254-853-3805
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
_______________________________
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: oil & oil temp questions |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
A Jag, wow, I'm impressed. Neat cars.
Doc
--- "Carl D. Vought" <carbarvo@knology.net> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl D.
> Vought" <carbarvo@knology.net>
>
> I used to dress the same way when I drove my 1956
> Jaguar XK140 roadster in
> the winter. It was my main means of transport and I
> only put the top up
> when it was cold AND raining. I LUV that snowmobile
> suit!...Carl Vought
>
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Galen
> Hutcheson
> <wacopitts@yahoo.com> wrote :
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen
> Hutcheson
> <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hey Chuck,
> >
> > I used to fly the old Bird biplane in the winter
> and I
> > wore a snowmobile suit. Works pretty good too.
> > Insulated boots and gloves and you can get right
> cozy
> > in open cockpit. Coldest days a ski mask works
> too.
> >
> > Doc
> > --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> Rcaprd@aol.com
> > >
> > > In a message dated 10/7/04 6:23:45 PM Central
> > > Daylight Time,
> > > horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
> > >
> > > << Also, I have noticed that my oil temp has
> dropped
> > > since air temps are
> > > going down. I'm wondering if it might be a good
> > > idea to make some baffle plates
> > > for colder temps? >>
> > >
> > > Dick,
> > > I have the same concerns. My oil temp hardly
> gets
> > > above 140 on the cooler
> > > days. I think that's not hot enough. I'm
> curious
> > > what others have done.
> > > When it's below 50, I dress warm, and I can get
> at
> > > least 4 or 5 circuits in
> > > the pattern before my body heat is all gone !!
> > >
> > > Chuck G.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Contributions
> > > any other
> > > Forums.
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> > >
> > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> > > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
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>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 10/8/04 11:47:12 AM Central Daylight Time,
lnelson208@yahoo.com writes:
<< Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am
about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly
the old girl. >>
Larry,
You are certainly on the right track. Aft CG is a dangerous place to be.
You will probably Never load it to be forward of forward CG. I've Never heard
of a Pietenpol with a forward CG problem. I agree with Mike C. about moving
the wing back (at least) 2". Keep in mind that by moving the wing 2" back will
not move the CG forward a full 2", therefore you should re-weight it after you
have the wing temporarily secured in position, and do your calculations.
Adding ballast gives me the Hiebie Jiebies !! Use the design for what it was
intended for, and move the wing. I doubt if you will be able to re use all of
the cables, though...one will be too long, and the other too short. On the long
ones, you might be able to carefully cut, and re do one end, just remember
the portion of the cable that is consumed in the loop at the end. If you nick
any of the strands while cutting off the nico press sleeve, the cable is scrap.
Mount it in a vise, and use a hack saw to cut just most of the way through,
then pry it apart with a screwdriver. I've also used a dremmel tool with a
thin cut off wheel to cut most of the way through, then use a screwdriver to pry
it apart, and two pair of pliers to spread it apart and remove it.
Chuck G.
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
<054201c4ad79$d7edf200$b1a470d1@defaultcomp>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Do you plan on carrying a toolkit? or survival gear?
Mount these things as far forward as possible. Even
in the nose in the case of tools. What about things
like batteries. For my electric start Corvair, since I
plan on a Jenny style cowl, I will be able to mount
the battery quite far forward if necessary. Here in
B.C. you can't go very far without entering some
pretty severe wilderness, more up and down than
crossways, so survival gear is a must and a permanent
part of the plane. Every little bit helps.
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen"
<gbowen@ptialaska.net>
>
> Larry there are some much more simple solutions than moving the wing.
You
> simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of
lead
> in a secured position somewhere forward of the empty plane's CG.
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: oil & oil temp questions |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com
In a message dated 10/8/04 11:41:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
BARNSTMR@aol.com writes:
<< Its hard to close up airflow around the engine case on an "exposed
cylinder" cowl. >>
I will try using duct tape over the hole in front of the J3 fiberglass nose
bowl, to see how that affects the temp. I also like the idea of insulating the
oil tank, maybe with fiberglass.
Chuck G.
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance Fun |
<054201c4ad79$d7edf200$b1a470d1@defaultcomp>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Another possibility might be a heavy prop hub cover sticking out front
like I've seen on some antiques such as the Tiger Moth. A half round
thing the same diameter as the hub. Can't get any farther forward than
that.
Clif
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen"
<gbowen@ptialaska.net>
>
> simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of
lead
.
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