---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/08/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:11 AM - Re: First FLight of NX899JP (Jack Phillips) 2. 05:44 AM - hard wire rigging (Oscar Zuniga) 3. 06:08 AM - Re: hard wire rigging (Michael D Cuy) 4. 06:23 AM - wire ferrules (Oscar Zuniga) 5. 09:40 AM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 6. 09:46 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Larry Nelson) 7. 10:56 AM - cowl views (Michael D Cuy) 8. 11:21 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Michael D Cuy) 9. 11:48 AM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (BARNSTMR@aol.com) 10. 02:58 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Gordon Bowen) 11. 03:15 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Carl D. Vought) 12. 04:19 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Larry Nelson) 13. 06:54 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Galen Hutcheson) 14. 10:50 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Rcaprd@aol.com) 15. 10:55 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Clif Dawson) 16. 10:58 PM - Re: oil & oil temp questions (Rcaprd@aol.com) 17. 11:04 PM - Re: Weight and Balance Fun (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:11:09 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First FLight of NX899JP --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Continental A65. Thanks, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Nelson Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First FLight of NX899JP --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson Jack, congrats!! What engine did you use? --- Galen Hutcheson wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen > Hutcheson > > Yeah, just follow the "Yellow Brick Road" or better > yet a set of railroad tracks that point toward the > direction you want to go. They always follow the > lowest terrain. But look out for those tunnels or > you > could have a clipped winged Piet. :) > > Doc > --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > A BIG Congratulations, Jack !! Certainly a > > milestone !! > > And I'm sure you'll find your way through the > > Appalachians to get to Brodhead. > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > ===== Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:33 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: hard wire rigging --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Regarding the use of "hard wire" for rigging, as per the old Piet plans, there has been much back-and-forth discussion of that over the years. Most of it is along the lines of "we have much better, modern stuff these days" and will tell you not to do it. However, looking through the great majority of details in the old Flying & Glider Manuals will show that they use wire with twisted "ferrules" almost exclusively. In the archives on the BPA site somewhere (the Grant McLaren site), is an article on making a tool to form the wire ferrules. It also shows how to properly install them. Again, you'll probably hear considerable nay-saying about this and maybe also about how a ferrule with a round inner shape does not properly secure the profile of two wires side-by-side and that the ferrule needs to be flattened for proper installation. I don't know about all that but I had planned to make one of those ferrule-and-loop tools and get a spool of wire from McMaster, make up a representative samples using wire ferrules vs. conventional thimble and aircraft cable, and test them both to failure. Many of the nay-sayers express concern about hardening, embrittlement, and/or fatigue of the wire where it forms the ferrule and eye, and that would no doubt be the point of failure. I just don't believe they would fail at any loading lower than would occur at the point of connection of the tab that connects the wires to the wood framing of the stabilizers, or of some of the other construction points. For the really authentic old-time look, the wire bracing is really interesting to me and I believe it can be done safely and adequately using the right tools and methods. That, however, is my own personal opinion and is completely NOT flight tested! Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:07 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: hard wire rigging --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Oscar-- my feeling has always been that the wood structure will fail long before any cable/turnbuckle/hard-wire support braces would. I think either cables or hard wire are fine back there. If you want the original look, learn and do the hard wire deal, if not don't use anything more than 3/32" cables back there or you'll be adding weight where you don't need any more strength. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:57 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: wire ferrules --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" List; Sorry if I sounded a little harsh with my last post about hard wire bracing and ferrules. As an engineer, I'm usually more logical, analytical, and unemotional about these things. Let me rephrase my earlier comments by just saying that there are some excellent posts in the archive on this, such as Greg Cardinal's one from 2/28/01 explaining his investigations and comments. He also references an early paper on various wires, cables, and connections (available as a NACA report but you have to search for it with Google and get it off a British technical paper site. I just printed it out moments ago myself). The bottom line is that the typical wire and ferrule method produces connections that aren't as strong as the wire itself. My point was that that may be plenty strong enough and probably stronger than other links in the chain. Greg's bottom line was that pull testing should be done. I haven't done that, but it should be very easy to do. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:16 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil & oil temp questions Its hard to close up airflow around the engine case on an "exposed cylinder" cowl. Some how the airflow needs to be blocked around the engine case for winter flying in these continentals. We have this problem on the '39 T-craft. I noticed some of the Piet builders have done a more meticulous job of fitting the cowl around the engine nose than others. Perhaps these are the guys up north. I noticed especially that Steve E's cowl seems to block a lot of air from the engine case area than ... say... a J3 type nose cowl. Check out the attached pictures to see what I mean. I couldn't find a good picture of Mike Cuy's cowl. I seem to recall it does a better job of blocking air around the engine case. Mike..Steve... have you had any cold-weather low oil temp problems? -- Terry L. Bowden ph 254-715-4773 fax 254-853-3805 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:45 AM PST US From: Larry Nelson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson Yes, I am still messing with the weight and balance issue for N444MH. I have opened up the treasure trove of boxes I got when I bought Howard Hendersons Piet from Joe Santana. (I have a TON of newsletters to go through, WOW!!) I did find Howards original weight and balance calcs. I took his work and made an Excel spreadsheet. Howard used the firewall as datum, and then made an adjustment in the form to locate the CG from the LE of the wing. Here are my conclusions: It is a given that with full tank and one skinny FAA type 175# passenger, Howards CG was 20.4 aft of the LE. Inserting an obese 222# person moves that CG to 21.2 aft of the LE. Am I correct to assume that is about 1.2" too far aft? As I burn fuel off to 12# of fuel, the CG moves to 21.1" aft of the LE. Moving the wing (and the weight and moment of the fuel) back 2 creates a CG at 19.3 aft of the CG. Consuming fuel down to 12# moves the CG to 19.1# aft of the CG Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly the old girl. ===== Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:56 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: cowl views Terry-- I have not had any low oil temp problems that I know of. Here are two photos, one courtesy of Corky, the other my cowl. Jack Phillips and I have very similar cowls, Frank Pavliga, Steve E. Most planes like a Champ, Piet have a hole just below the prop to cool the engine case in the summer and then duct tape over that in the winter. There are some places (univar, Wag RipOff, etc.) that sell insulated "jackets" or coats that snap over your oil tank to keep it warmer in the winter. My oil temps in the summer run about 170 to 185 or 190 at the most.......in the winter on say a 40 F day they run about 120-140, depending on how long I can stand it to let it warm up. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:46 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Larry-- you are on the right track. Move the wing. It will fly mucho better. I have flown mine near the 19" aft of CG limit when low on fuel and it feels "greasy". Does that make any sense. Like a car on snow covered roads where you think you are in control but sometimes not. They just fly weird when they get towards the aft CG. Flaring takes very little as the nose wants to come up pronto. The thing even cruises in a tail low position and you have to hold forward stick to keep from climbing. If all goes well you should be able to use the same X brace cables and turnbuckles after you tilt the wing back. Go two inches and have it over with:)) Mike ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:22 AM PST US From: BARNSTMR@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BARNSTMR@aol.com Larry, Instead of relying on the weight numbers taken from years ago, I recommend that you go ahead and weigh the airplane for yourself. You never know what items could have been changed since then. Probably not much....but you still never know. For safety's sake... -- Terry L. Bowden ph 254-715-4773 fax 254-853-3805 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:49 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" Larry there are some much more simple solutions than moving the wing. You simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of lead in a secured position somewhere forward of the empty plane's CG. I've got a Cozy IV. The damn thing will fall over on it's rear prop unless you put 40# in the nose area. The min. front seat weight is 250#. Some FAA skinny guys 170# guys have to tote around an extra 20# of lead shot out in the nose so they can fly alone. So ALL IS NOT LOST. Number one chore- Go thru the procedure that was outlined in earlier posting. Find out exactly where the loaded CG is with you and a full tank of fuel. Using the LE of the wing as datum. Mark that point on the wing. Your wing should have a chord of approx. 60". Your loaded CG (you and a passenger) with an empty gas tank can never fall back of 33% of chord or 20" behind the LE of the wing. Now set a limit for your plane for how much weight you're gonna allow in the front seat and how much the pilot has max. can weight. For example 200# passenger and #250 pilot. Plus 20 gallons of fuel at 6 #/gal, does this exceed you Gross max weight on your certification. You have to place limits. on each group of things. Baggage, passenger, fuel, pilot, stuff etc. NOW- and only after you've collected the data you need above. Calculate where and how much ballast you'd have to put somewhere secure in the engine compartment or in front of the fuel tank or anywhere out in front of the LE of the wing. In order to assure, when you're at max. passenger weight and you're at max. pilot weight and you've got empty fuel tanks. You never ever have that loaded configuration GC slid back behind the 20" from LE. Remember as you are flying along with max. fuel, as it burns off, you're loaded CG is sliding back toward the 20" mark. NOW- determine if your new loaded configuration of ballast plus fuel plus people puts you loaded CG in front of 25% of chord, or 15" from the LE. Fully loaded. This number is a little more flexible and could be 20-25% due to the authority of your horizonal stab and your elevator. IF your elevator can't lift the nose off the ground at normal takeoff speed, then it's not got enough authority. You'll have to give up a some ballast and some max. pilot weight. All is not lost. "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed, hence clamorous to be led" ; )...................Mencken Gordon Bowen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Nelson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson > > > Yes, I am still messing with the weight and balance > issue for N444MH. I have opened up the treasure trove > of boxes I got when I bought Howard Hendersons Piet > from Joe Santana. (I have a TON of newsletters to go > through, WOW!!) > > I did find Howards original weight and balance calcs. > I took his work and made an Excel spreadsheet. Howard > used the firewall as datum, and then made an > adjustment in the form to locate the CG from the LE of > the wing. > > Here are my conclusions: > > It is a given that with full tank and one skinny FAA > type 175# passenger, Howards CG was 20.4" aft of the > LE. > > Inserting an obese 222# person moves that CG to 21.2" > aft of the LE. Am I correct to assume that is about > 1.2" too far aft? As I burn fuel off to 12# of fuel, > the CG moves to 21.1" aft of the LE. > > Moving the wing (and the weight and moment of the > fuel) back 2" creates a CG at 19.3" aft of the CG. > > Consuming fuel down to 12# moves the CG to 19.1# aft > of the CG > > Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am > about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly > the old girl. > > > ===== > Larry Nelson > Springfield, MO > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH > 1963 GMC 4106-1618 > SV/ Spirit of America > ARS WB0JOT > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:19 PM PST US From: "Carl D. Vought" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil & oil temp questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl D. Vought" I used to dress the same way when I drove my 1956 Jaguar XK140 roadster in the winter. It was my main means of transport and I only put the top up when it was cold AND raining. I LUV that snowmobile suit!...Carl Vought On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Galen Hutcheson wrote : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > > Hey Chuck, > > I used to fly the old Bird biplane in the winter and I > wore a snowmobile suit. Works pretty good too. > Insulated boots and gloves and you can get right cozy > in open cockpit. Coldest days a ski mask works too. > > Doc > --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 10/7/04 6:23:45 PM Central > > Daylight Time, > > horzpool@goldengate.net writes: > > > > << Also, I have noticed that my oil temp has dropped > > since air temps are > > going down. I'm wondering if it might be a good > > idea to make some baffle plates > > for colder temps? >> > > > > Dick, > > I have the same concerns. My oil temp hardly gets > > above 140 on the cooler > > days. I think that's not hot enough. I'm curious > > what others have done. > > When it's below 50, I dress warm, and I can get at > > least 4 or 5 circuits in > > the pattern before my body heat is all gone !! > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:33 PM PST US From: Larry Nelson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson Terry, we weighed the plane and she is within about 6# of Howards original weights, even with the tailwheel instead of skid and with the doodle-bug brakes that Joe Santana installed. --- BARNSTMR@aol.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > BARNSTMR@aol.com > > Larry, > Instead of relying on the weight numbers taken from > years ago, I recommend that you go ahead and weigh > the airplane for yourself. You never know what > items could have been changed since then. Probably > not much....but you still never know. > For safety's sake... > -- > Terry L. Bowden > ph 254-715-4773 > fax 254-853-3805 > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > ===== Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:45 PM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil & oil temp questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson A Jag, wow, I'm impressed. Neat cars. Doc --- "Carl D. Vought" wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl D. > Vought" > > I used to dress the same way when I drove my 1956 > Jaguar XK140 roadster in > the winter. It was my main means of transport and I > only put the top up > when it was cold AND raining. I LUV that snowmobile > suit!...Carl Vought > > > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:27:16 -0700 (PDT), Galen > Hutcheson > wrote : > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen > Hutcheson > > > > > Hey Chuck, > > > > I used to fly the old Bird biplane in the winter > and I > > wore a snowmobile suit. Works pretty good too. > > Insulated boots and gloves and you can get right > cozy > > in open cockpit. Coldest days a ski mask works > too. > > > > Doc > > --- Rcaprd@aol.com wrote: > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > Rcaprd@aol.com > > > > > > In a message dated 10/7/04 6:23:45 PM Central > > > Daylight Time, > > > horzpool@goldengate.net writes: > > > > > > << Also, I have noticed that my oil temp has > dropped > > > since air temps are > > > going down. I'm wondering if it might be a good > > > idea to make some baffle plates > > > for colder temps? >> > > > > > > Dick, > > > I have the same concerns. My oil temp hardly > gets > > > above 140 on the cooler > > > days. I think that's not hot enough. I'm > curious > > > what others have done. > > > When it's below 50, I dress warm, and I can get > at > > > least 4 or 5 circuits in > > > the pattern before my body heat is all gone !! > > > > > > Chuck G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > > > any other > > > Forums. > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > > http://vote.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:28 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 10/8/04 11:47:12 AM Central Daylight Time, lnelson208@yahoo.com writes: << Am I on the right track here? Where have I erred? I am about ready to move the wing back about 1.5" and fly the old girl. >> Larry, You are certainly on the right track. Aft CG is a dangerous place to be. You will probably Never load it to be forward of forward CG. I've Never heard of a Pietenpol with a forward CG problem. I agree with Mike C. about moving the wing back (at least) 2". Keep in mind that by moving the wing 2" back will not move the CG forward a full 2", therefore you should re-weight it after you have the wing temporarily secured in position, and do your calculations. Adding ballast gives me the Hiebie Jiebies !! Use the design for what it was intended for, and move the wing. I doubt if you will be able to re use all of the cables, though...one will be too long, and the other too short. On the long ones, you might be able to carefully cut, and re do one end, just remember the portion of the cable that is consumed in the loop at the end. If you nick any of the strands while cutting off the nico press sleeve, the cable is scrap. Mount it in a vise, and use a hack saw to cut just most of the way through, then pry it apart with a screwdriver. I've also used a dremmel tool with a thin cut off wheel to cut most of the way through, then use a screwdriver to pry it apart, and two pair of pliers to spread it apart and remove it. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:12 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun <054201c4ad79$d7edf200$b1a470d1@defaultcomp> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson Do you plan on carrying a toolkit? or survival gear? Mount these things as far forward as possible. Even in the nose in the case of tools. What about things like batteries. For my electric start Corvair, since I plan on a Jenny style cowl, I will be able to mount the battery quite far forward if necessary. Here in B.C. you can't go very far without entering some pretty severe wilderness, more up and down than crossways, so survival gear is a must and a permanent part of the plane. Every little bit helps. Clif > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" > > Larry there are some much more simple solutions than moving the wing. You > simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of lead > in a secured position somewhere forward of the empty plane's CG. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:06 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: oil & oil temp questions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 10/8/04 11:41:38 AM Central Daylight Time, BARNSTMR@aol.com writes: << Its hard to close up airflow around the engine case on an "exposed cylinder" cowl. >> I will try using duct tape over the hole in front of the J3 fiberglass nose bowl, to see how that affects the temp. I also like the idea of insulating the oil tank, maybe with fiberglass. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:00 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance Fun <054201c4ad79$d7edf200$b1a470d1@defaultcomp> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson Another possibility might be a heavy prop hub cover sticking out front like I've seen on some antiques such as the Tiger Moth. A half round thing the same diameter as the hub. Can't get any farther forward than that. Clif > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" > > simply need enough ballast in the form of bags of lead shot or sheet of lead .