---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/08/04: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:03 AM - List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... (Matt Dralle) 2. 08:43 AM - drag wires (Jeff Hill) 3. 08:47 AM - Cooling systems for Model A Piets (john s) 4. 09:17 AM - another fatal accident at my home airport (DJ Vegh) 5. 09:20 AM - Re: drag wires (DJ Vegh) 6. 10:13 AM - Re: another fatal accident at my home airport (Gary Gower) 7. 11:08 AM - Re: drag wires (Isablcorky@aol.com) 8. 11:10 AM - Re: another fatal accident at my home airport (Isablcorky@aol.com) 9. 11:32 AM - Re: another fatal accident at my home airport (DJ Vegh) 10. 04:05 PM - Re: drag wires (Galen Hutcheson) 11. 04:09 PM - Re: how many yards of covering? (jimboyer@direcway.com) 12. 04:26 PM - Re: Cooling systems for Model A Piets (Galen Hutcheson) 13. 04:44 PM - Re: drag wires (Richard Navratil) 14. 08:11 PM - Re: drag wires (Clif Dawson) 15. 11:28 PM - Re. Drag Wires (Galen Hutcheson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:23 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, First, I'd like say *thank you* to everyone that has already made a Contribution to this year's List Fund Raiser! Thank you! If you haven't made your Contribution, won't you show your support for these valuable services today? Since there's no advertising or other forms of direct commercialism on the forums to support the Lists, its solely YOUR GENEROSITY that keeps them running!! Members have been including some very nice comments along with their Contributions this year. Please take a minute to read over some of the thoughts your fellow Listers have expressed regarding the Lists and what they mean to them. What do the Lists mean to you...? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin The amount of information and simple entertainment I derive from the lists you administer is enormous. -Chris R. The [List] digest is the one message in my inbox that I look forward to reading every day. -Brian U. [The Lists] are a major asset for the homebuilder. -Gary K. I use, and enjoy the List all the time. It is a fantastic tool. -Patrick M. [The List] has already paid for itself by answering two questions that I had concerning construction of my [Homebuilt]. -Mike L. [The List] has provided me with very useful information and helpful building tips. -Michael E. Thanks for keeping this text-only and commercial free for all us dial-up users! Your Lists are the best... -Mark P. Great service, I have learned many valuable lessons from others on the [List]... -Malcolm T. ...great List service [for] the many and varied within the aviation community. -David P. ...great service. -Terry B. ...enjoy monitoring the lists. -Ed A. ...I do enjoy the Matrix (List). -Galen H. Thanks for a great listserve! -Gary S. ...GREAT lists...! -Ray M. It is a great service. -Robert K. Invaluable! -Larry M. [The Lists are] the backbone (along with a UK list for Europa) of my building program. -Fergus K. Thanks for supporting aviation in this way. -Reade G. ...wonderful source of info! -Lynn M. [The] List has certainly helped me along the way. -Kevin S. ...excellent list. -Ed A. I enjoy the [the] List, and find it useful. -John G. An indispensable part of my day every day! -Owen B. A great source of help, encouragement and "partners in crime"! -Richard T. Great List. -Ed K. Couldn't have [finished my project] without your site and the help of the guys on the List. -Larry M. ...great service! -Walt S. I enjoy the [the] List everyday. -John B. Thank you for keeping everyone in line :) Its a great list to stay subscribed to. -Janet D. ...the most important resource I have to support my hobby. -Jeff D. Thank you for all the great features. -Brian U. Very valuable resource. -Thomas S. ...great service. -William C. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:55 AM PST US From: "Jeff Hill" Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jeff Hill" How many builders have used 3/32" cable instead of 1/8" for the wing drag wires? It would save a lot of weight and the rating of 3/32 is 920 lbs breaking strength (for stainless). Isn't this more than adequate? On another topic, why does there seem to be only one company that makes cable shackles? ACSS has had them on back order for a year with no end in sight. The only way I can see to get around this is to use swaged forkedcable ends and use a clevis pin for attachment to the metal wing tab. Jeff in TX Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:05 AM PST US From: "john s" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cooling systems for Model A Piets 1. Should I use a thermostat in the cooling system of an Air Camper powered by a Model A engine? If so, what should the thermostat's "opening" temperature be? 2. How does one "spec out" a radiator for this arrangement? That is: inside diameter, wall thickness, arrangement, and number of cooling tubes, etc. I've looked at a friends Model A automobile, and the radiator looks about 4 times too big for a Pietenpol. 3. Can anyone recommend a source for a Pietenpol radiator? Thanks very much for your inputs, folks. John S ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:04 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Pietenpol-List: another fatal accident at my home airport seems like just a few weeks ago I was commenting on how my home airport seems to have had a bad run of fatals in the last 2 yrs. Another one went down on Saturday during the CAF's Veterans event. The aircraft that wentdown was a small GA plane and I don't think it was involved in the airshow. It took off, stalled and spun in. This is like the 8th fatality. We just had one a few weeks back. This is ridiculous. Falcon Field is now setting the record for the most fatalities from one airport. There's no way in hell I'm making my first flights there! DJ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:09 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires you could also use a turnbuckle with fork end. I've had good success with buying shackles on ebay. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hill To: pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jeff Hill" How many builders have used 3/32" cable instead of 1/8" for the wing drag wires? It would save a lot of weight and the rating of 3/32 is 920 lbs breaking strength (for stainless). Isn't this more than adequate? On another topic, why does there seem to be only one company that makes cable shackles? ACS&S has had them on back order for a year with no end in sight. The only way I can see to get around this is to use swaged forked cable ends and use a clevis pin for attachment to the metal wing tab. Jeff in TX Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! Forums. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:32 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another fatal accident at my home airport --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gary Gower DJ, I dont think has nothing to do with your airport or aviation itself... We discused this in our Clubs hangar talk a few weekends ago in the evening. We concluded that the main thing about flying accidents is ALL OF US pilots attitide. The more hours we have flying the less atention we have to flying (and preflying). One thing we thought that contributes a lot are modern cars: They are more "automatic" every year. Now you can start them with the remote control, lights go on and off by itselfs, with this computers systems and great oils (lots of miles betwen changes) is less, or maybe none, the mantainance we have to do to them... practically is get in your car, check the fuel level, look at the mirror and drive. Then when we get into our planes, we tend to do the same automatically, Some pilots forget to follow their writen check lists. This is what we thought... Maybe is not all true but can be a cause. I will prayer to the pilot and his family next Sunday... Saludos Gary Gower Do not archive. --- DJ Vegh wrote: > seems like just a few weeks ago I was commenting on how my home > airport seems to have had a bad run of fatals in the last 2 yrs. > > Another one went down on Saturday during the CAF's Veterans event. > The aircraft that wentdown was a small GA plane and I don't think it > was involved in the airshow. > > It took off, stalled and spun in. > > This is like the 8th fatality. We just had one a few weeks back. > This is ridiculous. Falcon Field is now setting the record for the > most fatalities from one airport. > > There's no way in hell I'm making my first flights there! > > DJ > > __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:29 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires Jeff in Texass, this is Corky in La, I will probably get much negative feed back from the puristists but this shackle problem was passed on to me from Joe C and it works well. Go to Home Depot, in the cable section and you will find some fairleads packaged on cards. Buy the 1/2 in size. Take home and vice the round part, straighten out the two ears and you have a two perfect schackles for about $1.50. They are stainless steel and strong with 3/16 holes. Try a strength test to convince yourself. You will find that you can fly all over Texass without losing a wing. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:47 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another fatal accident at my home airport Please tell us where is Falcon field ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:29 AM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another fatal accident at my home airport FFZ is the identifier. It's about 1 mile north of my house. That's where I hangar my Grumman Cheetah. Too bad the hangar won't fit both the Cheetah and the Aircamper because I'm having a major crisis in finding a hangar at Falcon. There's a 7 year waiting list.... but that's another story. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another fatal accident at my home airport Please tell us where is Falcon field ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:57 PM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Thanks for that tip. You say they are called fairleads? "Vice the round part?" I'll go check out Home Depot soon. Again, thanks for the tip. Doc --- Isablcorky@aol.com wrote: > Jeff in Texass, this is Corky in La, > > I will probably get much negative feed back from the > puristists but this > shackle problem was passed on to me from Joe C and > it works well. Go to Home > Depot, in the cable section and you will find some > fairleads packaged on cards. Buy > the 1/2 in size. Take home and vice the round part, > straighten out the two > ears and you have a two perfect schackles for about > $1.50. They are stainless > steel and strong with 3/16 holes. Try a strength > test to convince yourself. You > will find that you can fly all over Texass without > losing a wing. > __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:21 PM PST US From: jimboyer@direcway.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: how many yards of covering? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: jimboyer@direcway.com Thanks DJ, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: how many yards of covering? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > using generic uncertified 2.7oz. Dacron and Polyfiber/Stits process. > > Will be starting covering of the tail surfaces in the next week or 2 > > DJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 8:42 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: how many yards of covering? > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: jimboyer@direcway.com > > > > DJ, > > > > What fabric and what method are you using? Thanks, Jim > > > > do not archive > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: DJ Vegh > > Date: Sunday, November 7, 2004 2:32 pm > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: how many yards of covering? > > > > > nevermind... I just went ahead and ordered 42 yds. I figure > that > > > ought do it. > > > > > > I also bought all the chemicals to bring it up to the "silver" > > > stage. Freakin expensive! $1600 for fabric and chemicals. > > > probably be another $1000 for color coat.... sheeesh! > > > > > > DJ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: DJ Vegh > > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 8:59 AM > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: how many yards of covering? > > > > > > > > > about how many yards of covering does a Piet require? > > > > > > DJ > > > > > > _ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _- > _- > _- > _- > ===================================================================== > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:19 PM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cooling systems for Model A Piets --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson John, Ken Perkins gave me the name o Forrest Loveley. His email is ftloveley@aol.com. I wrote him and he does make radiators for this installation but needed an order for about six radiators to do a run of them. I want one, but I don't know how many others there are who also want one. If you contact him, tell him I'll take one too. Doc --- john s wrote: > 1. Should I use a thermostat in the cooling system > of an Air Camper powered by a Model A engine? If > so, what should the thermostat's "opening" > temperature be? > 2. How does one "spec out" a radiator for this > arrangement? That is: inside diameter, wall > thickness, arrangement, and number of cooling tubes, > etc. I've looked at a friends Model A automobile, > and the radiator looks about 4 times too big for a > Pietenpol. > 3. Can anyone recommend a source for a Pietenpol > radiator? > Thanks very much for your inputs, folks. > John S __________________________________ www.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:21 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires I used 3/32" it does save weight. With all the cross bracing it's plenty. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hill To: pietenpol-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: drag wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jeff Hill" How many builders have used 3/32" cable instead of 1/8" for the wing drag wires? It would save a lot of weight and the rating of 3/32 is 920 lbs breaking strength (for stainless). Isn't this more than adequate? On another topic, why does there seem to be only one company that makes cable shackles? ACS&S has had them on back order for a year with no end in sight. The only way I can see to get around this is to use swaged forked cable ends and use a clevis pin for attachment to the metal wing tab. Jeff in TX Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! Forums. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:25 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Clif Dawson Galen, here's a pair of messages from the archives., Dec 96. I believe some are flying now with these. If you want more input (much more!) go to the search link at the bottom of any message and put "shackle" into the search window. Clif John, and others. Your description obout the roller links is just what I did too. I went down to the local bearing supply house with a piece of cable I had put an eye into to see how things sized up. I came out with to very acceptable links. I choose two sizes. I use the RS41 rated average strength of 2640lbs for the control linkages such as aileron controls, and the RS50 (7050lbs, way overkill I know) for the flying wire to structure connection. The pins on the RS50 are just larger than 3/16" in diameter. From the Aircraft Spruce Catalog 1/8" stainless cable load rating is 1790lbs and the AN115 -21 ($3.85) shackle is 2100lbs. I feel comfortable with using these links. If you use the RS41 in a cable to cable connection it does not need any shims (washers) The RS50 is much bigger and I used washers as shims to keep the loads straight like John. For the RS41's I paid $.55 and the RS50's were a whopping $.70 each. Stevee > Steve, > > Here is a shot at a reply. > > I have incorporated a number of moter-sickle chain master links in my ship in > leiu of shackles. The ones I have used are a 420. If I remember correctly, > they are rated at 4200 lbs per the moter-sickle people's books. In other > words they are much stronger than shackles. They cost about a buck or a buck > and a dime compared to the 4 to 6 bucks the shackles cost. > > The only drawback I have seen is that they are not quite shaped perfectly for > the job. These look a little screwy if they are pulled at an angle rather > than in a straight line. This is probably not a serious problem. I have put > a few AN flat washers on the link to kind of shim out some of the space. > > What do y'all think about this? It would be interesting to hear some more > discussion. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > > John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: drag wires > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > > Thanks for that tip. You say they are called > fairleads? "Vice the round part?" I'll go check out > Home Depot soon. Again, thanks for the tip. > > Doc > --- Isablcorky@aol.com wrote: > > > Jeff in Texass, this is Corky in La, > > > > I will probably get much negative feed back from the > > puristists but this > > shackle problem was passed on to me from Joe C and > > it works well. Go to Home > > Depot, in the cable section and you will find some > > fairleads packaged on cards. Buy > > the 1/2 in size. Take home and vice the round part, > > straighten out the two > > ears and you have a two perfect schackles for about > > $1.50. They are stainless > > steel and strong with 3/16 holes. Try a strength > > test to convince yourself. You > > will find that you can fly all over Texass without > > losing a wing. > > > > > __________________________________ > www.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:30 PM PST US From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re. Drag Wires --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Hi Clif, Thanks for those two tips from the archives. I had heard something about motor cycle chain master links before but had not had a chance to check them out. I agree with those who find suitable substitutes for the overpriced aircraft hardware. Sometimes it is easy to forget that BHP designed this airplane to be built from the hardware store and lumber yard. Otherwise we could all be building RV-6's :0). I do appreciate these tips and will pass any on that I may happen onto. Thanks. Doc __________________________________ www.yahoo.com