---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/28/04: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:58 AM - Re: Varnishing Alternatives (Rcaprd@aol.com) 2. 09:36 AM - Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Jack Phillips) 3. 09:44 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (DOUGLAS BLACKBURN) 4. 09:46 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (bike.mike) 5. 09:52 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (walt evans) 6. 10:03 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Jack Phillips) 7. 10:10 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Jim Markle) 8. 10:12 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Jim Markle) 9. 10:45 AM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Stacy Clark) 10. 11:06 AM - Carb Heat (Isablcorky@aol.com) 11. 02:45 PM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Galen Hutcheson) 12. 05:26 PM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Jack Phillips) 13. 06:37 PM - Re: Buoyancy (Bert Conoly) 14. 07:15 PM - Re: Buoyancy (Dave and Connie) 15. 08:33 PM - Re: Carb Heat (Ed Smith) 16. 09:37 PM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Rcaprd@aol.com) 17. 09:53 PM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/27/04 (ADonJr@aol.com) 18. 11:04 PM - Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted (Mike Whaley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:37 AM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Alternatives --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com I used Ace Spar Varnish Gloss (pt #16375) for everything, including the prop. No problem with the covering material lifting the varnish. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:01 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of Corky's (now Oscar's) Piet and John's "Mountain Piet". I had a forced landing yesterday morning which terminated in a groundloop and minor damage to the airplane. I had gone up for a photo shoot for an article in "Private Pilot"magazine on my airplane. I was flying formation with an Aviat Husky photo plane (they were flying with the door open and were nearly as cold as I was in the 27 air) over Jordan Lake, a 14,000 acre lake just west of Raleigh, NC. After we finished shooting the pictures over Jordan Lake we were heading back to Cox Field, where my plane is based. Shortly after reaching the shoreline I had a partial power failure. The engine suddenly began running roughly and only turning about 1300 - 1400 RPM. Not a total failure, but the best I could maintain was about a 400 fpm descent. I was already carrying carb heat because I had picked up some carb ice. I tried turning carb heat off, but no change. Since I was only at 1300' MSL when it happened it didn't give me many options. I called the Husky on the radio and told them I had engine trouble and was going down. I didn't think I could make it to Cox so I turned toward US 64 with the goal of landing at Deck Field, a 1300' private strip just south of US 64. By the time I reached US 64 I was down to about 200' AGL and was still two miles from Deck Field, and about 6 miles from Cox. I realized my options were down to one - land it on the highway. Wind was out of the east so I was at least landing into the wind. The Pietenpol's glide ratio is somewhere between that of a brick and a bowling ball. I normally carry quite a bit of power through the landing to give it a normal flare. That power was not available now. The engine was running slower and slower and finally quit just before I touched down. I was checking for traffic (4 wheel type) and found a pickup just below and slightly ahead of me. I slowed it up slightly and let him get ahead of me, then put the nose down to keep it flying. It touched down pretty hard on the mains and bounced. I recovered, flared it and set it down 3-point and thought I had it made. It rolled out normally for a few seconds, slowing to about 15-20 mph, when the right wing began to dip. I instinctively applied left aileron, then as it began to veer to the right I had full left rudder and was trying to find the left heel brake when it went off the road to the right and dove into a ditch, where it groundlooped. I was unhurt, and climbed out of the cockpit after shutting off the fuel, the mags and the master switch. It could have been a lot worse. If the engine had quit while I was out over the lake it would have been a pretty cold swim home. If I had not been close to Hwy 64 (remember, by the time I got over the highway I was already down to just a couple hundred feet), I would probably have had to put it in the trees and certainly would have totalled the airplane, and probably gotten hurt pretty badly. I also managed to glide down to the highway over one set of power lines and under a second set (I never saw either one). So I have a lot to be thankful for this Thanksgiving weekend, even though my plane was wrecked. Inspection revealed the axle had broken just inboard of the right wheel (which I think happened due to the hard landing and caused the groundloop) and the wheel was detached from the airframe, although it was still attached by the brakeline. The fracture was right at the guide pin which I'm sure added quite a bit of stress concentration. Damage was relatively minor. In addition to the broken axle, the horizontal stabilizer was broken in two places on the right side, although the elevator appears to be OK. The right aileron was damaged near the tip (I still had full left aileron in when the wing tip hit the ditch) and the tailwheel was sheared off. None of the main structure appears to be damaged (a tribute to the rugged design of the Pietenpol). I should be able to have all the repairs done and have it flying again within 6 months or so. Of course, first I've got to figure out what happened to the engine to cause all this. I'll try to post some pictures of my wounded Piet tomorrow. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:07 AM PST US From: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" Jack, Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will be in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble as well when you can. Thanks, Doug Blackburn Doug & Elizabeth Blackburn Yucaipa California www.inlandsloperebels.com W W's Conversion Manual 3202, 5782 www.flycorvair.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > I had gone up for a photo shoot for an article in "Private Pilot"magazine on > my airplane. >Of course, first I've got to figure out > what happened to the engine to cause all this. > I'll try to post some pictures of my wounded Piet tomorrow. > Jack Phillips > Raleigh, NC > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:55 AM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" Holy cow, Jack! You were fortunate in so many ways. Your story reflects a cool head which may be your best thing to be thankful for. We're all glad you're alive (and warm and dry) to talk about it. Mike Hardaway PS Maybe you should consider changing the name... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of > Corky's (now Oscar's) Piet and John's "Mountain Piet". I had a forced > landing yesterday morning which terminated in a groundloop and minor damage > to the airplane. > [snip] ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:55 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Jack, Sorry about your tough luck. But you walked away. Better to have to walk away then to have to swim away! Did you say you are running an A-65? walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > Well, my new Pietenpol, "Icarus Plummet", has joined the elite group of ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:19 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Doug, We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until I have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all his fault. I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and axle). I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of inadequate carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. The wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to a few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, snapping the axle in two. As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same problems. And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS BLACKBURN Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" Jack, Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will be in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble as well when you can. Thanks, Doug Blackburn ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:32 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details would sure be appreciated. My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and weld ONLY on the top surface. Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already very sad situation. I'm really sorry. Thanks JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > Doug, > > We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do > them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until > I > have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all > his fault. > > I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and > axle). > > I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can > pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of > inadequate > carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. > The > wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this > morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see > if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I > pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that > or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. > > As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide > pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to > a > few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which > probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable > because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing > yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause > the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, > snapping the axle in two. > > As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep > someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same > problems. > > And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS > BLACKBURN > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" > > > Jack, > Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will > be > in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble > as > well when you can. > Thanks, > > Doug Blackburn > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:32 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" Oops, sorry. I found the axle details in the archive..... Again, VERY sorry to hear but I agree with everyone else, I'm VERY glad you're ok. JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" > > > Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? > Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details > would sure be appreciated. > > My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and > weld ONLY on the top surface. > > Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already > very sad situation. > > I'm really sorry. > > Thanks > JM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Phillips" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:02 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" >> >> >> Doug, >> >> We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do >> them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until >> I >> have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all >> his fault. >> >> I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and >> axle). >> >> I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I >> can >> pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of >> inadequate >> carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. >> The >> wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this >> morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to >> see >> if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I >> pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either >> that >> or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. >> >> As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide >> pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to >> a >> few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which >> probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable >> because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing >> yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and >> cause >> the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, >> snapping the axle in two. >> >> As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can >> keep >> someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same >> problems. >> >> And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. >> >> Jack >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS >> BLACKBURN >> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted >> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" >> >> >> Jack, >> Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will >> be >> in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble >> as >> well when you can. >> Thanks, >> >> Doug Blackburn >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:25 AM PST US From: "Stacy Clark" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stacy Clark" Jack, Sorry to hear about your plane. Nice job on getting down though. The powerlines reminds me of a time when I jumped off a 8' fence as a kid. I landed just fine and started to walk away...but couldn't. I looked behind me to see what was holding me up only to find metal fence stake (those green ones with the white tips) had gone through the bottom of my pants, directly between my cheeks and out the top of my pants. Like you, I never saw it or felt it. Someone was definately watching over me. I figure an 1/8" closer or so and I would have landed vertically right on my tailbone from 8' above. Good to see you're okay. Stacy There is only one greater thing than to believe in the impossible...and that is to achieve it -- Stacy Clark ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:20 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat Pieters, As a very interested and concerned participant in these A-65 Piet incidents I recommend strongly that we call upon the brains, experienced and gifted on this list to try and design a carb heat system for an A-65 to replace the present heat muff marketed with the 7 AC stacks. I wish I could help but this is not my line of work. I feel very guilty that a Piet I completed has suffered this failure fate without any prior knowledge as to this weakness. My test pilot Edwin Johnson voiced his concern several times during the test period that he was a bit concerned that the RPM drop when carb heat was applied seem too small. I removed the muff and added more surface metal inside which seemed to add more Rpm drop. I hope someone with the knowledge and skill in this area can come up with a better exhaust system and a hotter air system. I'll forget about the ping pong balls until this problem is solved. Praise the Lord from whom all blessings flow. 2 down and nobody hurt. Corky ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:40 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Au/1D7v0r4vggE4bJQjdhKYK7Z+kOeSrnbMdpGQQ+e8xPL2iRI6TA+bWlRKlXXhT6zNZJ2S5K9GfWXtFPSjl24gmqBeVVdNRgUMz667pbhYqDB+8FjGRSFREAFEDGffprrX14VnMlXuyL6Q0TLKqo3ID5y3plys2pN5zJlSSW7k= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Jack, I'm sorry to hear about the accident, but very thankful that no one was hurt. I have "totaled" out 6 airplanes in my over 30 some odd years of flying and I know of the sad feeling you get after all the dust has settled down and you have had some time to reflect. My last one, the beloved Bird biplane, swallowed an intake valve over Mark Twain Lake in northern MO. I could only stretch a glide to a very small field on a ridge above the lake. I got to the field with about 200' altitude and noticed a deep ravine running across the field. I made a quick left downwind and set up for a landing, holding the plane off until I cleared the ravine. I then noticed the ground sloping steeply away from me and directly ahead was a tree-line. I still had flying speed and I thought the wheels would never make contact with the ground. Finally they touched and as soon as they did, I intentionally ground-looped the plane to keep from hitting the tree-line. Both lower wings slapped the ground and the main gear broke and the plane slid backwards for a short distance, but it finally came to a stop and I quickley got my riders out of the front cockpit. There was no fire and no one was hurt or even shaken up. The plane was totaled and is being restored. That was my last barnstorming flight. There just weren't any more biplanes in my price range so I was out of business. You will have your plane repaired and flying again and this will all be only a bad footnote. Best of luck and glad you weren't hurt. Doc > > > > > > > > Click on the > this > by the > Admin. > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:57 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" This afternoon I finally got Icarus Plummet back into my basement and started looking through the damage. I can say with certainty that the axle broke at the guide pin which had been welded top and bottom in a hole drilled through the axle. The axle was a tube of 1-1/2" O.D. x .120" wall 4130 chromoly. It is obvious that a crack started at the weld on the bottom of the axle and had propogated about 1/2" before the accident. The hard impact caused the axle to crack further, slowly giving way and causing the wing droop that I had noticed after landing. Once the plane got in the ditch and groundlooped, the side loads finished the job and ripped the end of the axle with the wheel off. The good news is that even with the extreme side loads of a full blown ground loop, my custom 6" wide hub wire wheels didn't bend or break. Both wheels still roll true and don't show any signs of damage. I will definitely make the axle differently this next time. I think welding the guide pins only at the top makes good sense. That weld sees little loading itself, but the weld in tension on the bottom of the axle has a large potential to crack, and if it does crack, the crack is very difficult to detect because it is right underneath the bungee cords. I may try to sleeve the axle in that area and reinforce it because it is such a high stress area. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Markle Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Markle" Was the guide tube welded TO the bottom or THRU the bottom of the axle? Several of us are currently working on straight axles and some details would sure be appreciated. My EAA tech counselor told me to drill up thru the bottom of the axle and weld ONLY on the top surface. Sorry to belabor the issue but hopefully we can benefit from an already very sad situation. I'm really sorry. Thanks JM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" > > > Doug, > > We never got to do the ground shots he wanted because we were going to do > them after the aerial shots. He said he'll hold off on the article until > I > have it flying again. He felt terrible about it and felt like it was all > his fault. > > I'll keep the list posted on the cause of the TWO failures (engine and > axle). > > I think I know what casued the engine failure, but am not sure until I can > pull the carburetor and inspect it. After Oscar Zuniga's tale of > inadequate > carb heat, I had added a wad of stainless steel wool in my heat muffs. > The > wad was wedged in very tightly and seemed secure enough. I noticed this > morning that it was not in the heat muff, so I pulled the SCAT hose to see > if it had blocked that. No Steel wool present. My guess is that when I > pull the carburetor I will find it stuffed full of steel wool, either that > or I will find it under a valve. Stupid. > > As for the axle, I suspect that I had a crack in the weld where the guide > pin is welded to the axle, that went undetected. I subjected the gear to > a > few harder than usual landings during the initial test flights which > probably caused the crack to propogate. It was not easily detectable > because it is under the bungee cords. The impact of the hard landing > yesterday probably cracked it further, allowing the axle to bend and cause > the plane to veer off the road. The ensuing groundloop finished the job, > snapping the axle in two. > > As I said, I'll keep the list posted on my findings. Hopefully I can keep > someone else (who might not be as lucky as I was) from having the same > problems. > > And yes, Walt. It is an A65-8 Continental. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGLAS > BLACKBURN > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:43 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DOUGLAS BLACKBURN" > > > Jack, > Glad you came out of it O.K. Do you know which issue the article will > be > in when it comes out yet? Let us know your findings on the engine trouble > as > well when you can. > Thanks, > > Doug Blackburn > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:11 PM PST US From: "Bert Conoly" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Anybody know where I can get 82 one gallon jugs cheap? ;>) Bert (whose inspection is scheduled for 3 weekend in December.) Cross your fingers. ----- Original Message ----- From: DJ Vegh To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Isablcorky@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy Pieters, I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would anyone in the know please send me that figure. Corky, on the bayou ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:05 PM PST US From: Dave and Connie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy <004d01c4d42c$bf087ab0$0100a8c0@Desktop> <000001c4d5bc$49783880$6401a8c0@youruzmpkxfw5y> Recycle bin at the dump? Cow juice comes in them around here. Dave N36078 '41 BC-12-65 Thinking about pulling his Piet project off of for sale and back into building At 10:17 PM 11/26/2004, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can get 82 one gallon jugs cheap? ;>) > >Bert (whose inspection is scheduled for 3 weekend in December.) Cross >your fingers. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: DJ Vegh >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 9:56 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy > >another point of interest is that 82 one gallon milk jugs filled with air >will keep a typical empty weight Piet from sinking > >DJ >----- Original Message ----- >From: Isablcorky@aol.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 7:29 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buoyancy > >Pieters, > >I can't find the buoyance table to determine how much weight can be >supported in salt water with one (1) 1 gal plactic milk container. Would >anyone in the know please send me that figure. > >Corky, on the bayou > > >--- >Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:45 PM PST US From: Ed Smith Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb Heat --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ed Smith Just a couple of thoughts here, but just stuffing metal into the muff (steel wool) isn't going to do to much for heat transfer to the intake air. I have seen examples of heat exchangers (that's what a heat muff is) where the exhaust tubing that is encased in the muff has fins welded to it. It increases the surface area of the metal that is exposed to air and has a much better transfer of heat to the exposed surfaces due to being welded and in intimate contact with the exhaust tubing rather than something lying against it. Similar principle to a car radiator in reverse. Instead of loosing heat, we want to transfer it to the intake air. The other thing is as Jack has guessed, loose material in the muff can and will migrate to the point that it will cause a restriction in the intake air to the extent that a power loss is inevitable. Corky, when you added your metal, was it welded to the tubing or installed in such a way that it would not move but maintained contact with the tubing? I second your blessing, no one hurt is the most important thing. A friend told me once, use the engine to save the plane, but failing that, use the plane to save your butt. At 02:05 PM 11/28/2004, you wrote: >Pieters, > >As a very interested and concerned participant in these A-65 Piet >incidents I recommend strongly that we call upon the brains, experienced >and gifted on this list to try and design a carb heat system for an A-65 >to replace the present heat muff marketed with the 7 AC stacks. I wish I >could help but this is not my line of work. I feel very guilty that a Piet >I completed has suffered this failure fate without any prior knowledge as >to this weakness. My test pilot Edwin Johnson voiced his concern several >times during the test period that he was a bit concerned that the RPM drop >when carb heat was applied seem too small. I removed the muff and added >more surface metal inside which seemed to add more Rpm drop. >I hope someone with the knowledge and skill in this area can come up with >a better exhaust system and a hotter air system. I'll forget about the >ping pong balls until this problem is solved. Praise the Lord from whom >all blessings flow. 2 down and nobody hurt. > >Corky L. Edward Smith Boones Mill, VA 24065 lesmith@roanokeinternet.com (preferred) lesmith_52@hotmail.com lesmith218@yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:17 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com Jack, Along with everyone else on the list, I'm Sorry to hear about your plane, but thank God you're all right, and that the plane is certainly repairable. It's a Huge advantage to for everyone to hear input from the actual pilot, and ask questions, instead of the crash investigators, to find out what actually happened. It helps others build a safer airplane. A couple of questions: You said you were already carrying carb heat, because you had picked up some ice. Were you at full power, and saw a slight reduction in rpm, and then put in carb heat ? Was there visible moisture in the air ? What was the humidity ? At those lower temperatures it is my understanding that moisture in the air is low. Did the guy in the truck see you in the rear view mirror, and come back ? Did you find the stainless steel wool in the carb or engine ? Like Corky, I would like to hear more discussion of carb heat design. My heat muff is homemade, but is somewhat similar to the 7 AC stacks, in that it is 3003 aluminum wrap around the two stacks on the right side, however there isn't anything else there to make more surface area. I have about a 50 rpm drop, maybe even a little less, when I add carb heat on my A65. Corky, - How did you make more surface area inside the heat muff ? How much rpm drop do you other guys have ? I hope to hear some input on carb heat from others, too. Chuck Gantzer NX770CG ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:19 PM PST US From: ADonJr@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/27/04 Hey, Group, I am ready to build the tail surfaces and have a question about the steel fittings. The plans call for 5/8 x 13 gauge steel. The chart says that 13 gauge is .09". Aircraft Spruce sells 5/8 inch strap up to .08" thickness. My understanding is that 4130 is stronger than the mild steel Pietenpol had available. If this is correct, would it be reasonable to use the .08" steel? It involves a considerable savings in labor if it is safe. What say you? Don Cooley ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:28 PM PST US From: "Mike Whaley" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Icarus Plummet has Plummeted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mike Whaley" Jack, glad you're OK. You can always build another plane, it's a bit harder to rebuild the pilot. (We can rebuild him... have the technology...) Sorry to hear of any incident, but you have to keep these things in their proper perspective and be thankful to the big guy upstairs for looking out for us through so many things that by all rights shouldn't have come out so well. Did the photo guys get any shots of your emergency landing? That might make for an interesting story in itself! Mike "Sheep do not so much fly, as plummet" W. Mike Whaley merlin@ov-10bronco.net Webmaster, OV-10 Bronco Association http://www.ov-10bronco.net/