---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/10/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:21 AM - Re: aircraft repairman (Phillips, Jack) 2. 04:59 AM - Re: aircraft repairman (N321TX@wmconnect.com) 3. 08:40 AM - Re: aircraft repairman (cgalley) 4. 10:46 AM - Re: aircraft repairman (walt evans) 5. 10:49 AM - Re: Torque Tube Rod (John Dilatush) 6. 11:12 AM - Fw: (no subject) (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 11:14 AM - Re: Torque Tube Rod (Phillips, Jack) 8. 02:34 PM - Re: Torque Tube Rod (John Dilatush) 9. 03:09 PM - Mountain Piet (John Dilatush) 10. 03:58 PM - repairman (Richard Navratil) 11. 04:11 PM - Re: Fw: (no subject) (Rcaprd@aol.com) 12. 06:31 PM - Re: Torque Tube (David Paulsen) 13. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Torque Tube (John Dilatush) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman From: "Phillips, Jack" I got mine when the FAA inspector inspected the aircraft for the airworthiness certificate. I had filled out the application befrehand and he gave me the temporary certificate on the spot. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development Clinical Technologies and Services Cardinal Health Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 -----Original Message----- From: Richard Navratil [mailto:horzpool@goldengate.net] Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:47 AM PST US From: N321TX@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman When I built my first airplane, an Avid Sportster, the FSDO guy came down, spent 10 minutes looking at my jewel and my extensive logs and picture. He drove off, I flew my bird and received my Repairman's Certificate in the mail about 90 days later without having to rub my tummy, pat my head and/or say the alphabet backwards nor naming all 50 states in 20 seconds. I think you have a horse's rear end giving you a double dose of grief. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:39 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman That's exactly the way it's supposed to work. The inspector conducts and interview with the applicant in order to determine the applicant's level of knowledge of the aircraft and it's construction and systems. Providing that the applicant exhibits the proper level of knowledge, the certificate will be issued. Pictures I believe are now a requirement. If you get a certificate without showing some how that you did build and are competent to maintain, then the inspector is being lazy and not doing a good job. If he can't follow those regs, how good an inspection of your plane are you getting? Is the plane really airworthy or has he just signed it off to get rid of you? But some can tell if you built it and are capable at the time of the inspection. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: NEMuzzy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I kept a photo log and web page of my construction process. (Make sure you have a few pictures with yourself in it, doing the work!) Links to the pages were included with the paperwork. There was also a day-by-day log for the first half of the project (where you are making lots of parts). The inspector stated that it was obvious that I did the work and was qualified to get the repairman's certificate. He completed the paperwork for the repairnman's certificate immediately following the airframe inspection, and the card showed up a month or two later. You don't need the card until it comes time for the condition inspection. The concern is that there are people who have purchased projects that do not have the complete skillset required to do a conditional inspection. If you have reasonable documentation that you did the work, there should be no concerns. If you have no documentation, they may be looking for enough demonstration of knowledge about the building process. -Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:06 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman The guys aren't there to bust chops, they just have to be sure that you built it and didn't just buy a project 99% done. The guy that I was given at the FAA facility was a 777 inspector. Kind of laughed and said he usually did the "big iron". So he had to go get the list of things required. Everything that I had was good except the paper said I needed a building log which he took for an itemized, daily log. I spent the next few weeks fabricating one from memory,reciepts, and dated photos. Real pain in the neck to do. When I returned back to the FAA, I was told at the desk that my "agent" was busy and she would go get the "duty agent of the day". Another nice guy. When I laid all my stuff on the table, he glanced at some pictures , some glue samples, and some welding samples. After some questions, he started to fill out the paperwork. NOT ONCE did he mention the builders log laying in front of him. Go figure! "Life is like a box of chocolates" walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: cgalley To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman That's exactly the way it's supposed to work. The inspector conducts and interview with the applicant in order to determine the applicant's level of knowledge of the aircraft and it's construction and systems. Providing that the applicant exhibits the proper level of knowledge, the certificate will be issued. Pictures I believe are now a requirement. If you get a certificate without showing some how that you did build and are competent to maintain, then the inspector is being lazy and not doing a good job. If he can't follow those regs, how good an inspection of your plane are you getting? Is the plane really airworthy or has he just signed it off to get rid of you? But some can tell if you built it and are capable at the time of the inspection. Cy Galley EAA Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: NEMuzzy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:59 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I kept a photo log and web page of my construction process. (Make sure you have a few pictures with yourself in it, doing the work!) Links to the pages were included with the paperwork. There was also a day-by-day log for the first half of the project (where you are making lots of parts). The inspector stated that it was obvious that I did the work and was qualified to get the repairman's certificate. He completed the paperwork for the repairnman's certificate immediately following the airframe inspection, and the card showed up a month or two later. You don't need the card until it comes time for the condition inspection. The concern is that there are people who have purchased projects that do not have the complete skillset required to do a conditional inspection. If you have reasonable documentation that you did the work, there should be no concerns. If you have no documentation, they may be looking for enough demonstration of knowledge about the building process. -Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Navratil To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 9:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman I don't recall seeing this subject discussed before. I have had my application form for the Aircraft Repairman sitting around and finally called about getting the rating. The examiner gave me an appointment for next week and told me to bring in all logs and be prepaired to discuss construction and that the oral interview should take about an hour. Has anyone else had a similar going over? Do I just live in a area with very strict standards? Dick N ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:35 AM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: David Paulsen To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Dave, Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John Thanks Jack. Perhaps I will try to find two 8 inch pieces of pipe that can slip tightly into my axle - position them so there's about 4 inches of pipe on either side of the holes - and drill them through. This will double the thickness of the axle in that critical area acting as reinforcement in case there is a exceptionally hard landing. Dave Paulsen ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: 'pietenpol-list@matronics.com' Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Dave, The guide pins don't have to be welded. However, just putting a hole through the axle causes a stress concentration. My axle broke at the guide pin, but my axle was only .120" wall. My new axle will be .188" wall, and I will have it heat treated after welding to raise the yield strength to 105,000 psi, which will make it about 50% stronger (and 8 lbs lighter) than a .25" wall axle non-heat treated. I am also going to change the design of the guide pins to allow the holes through the axle to be on the neutral axis so any stress concentrations caused by the holes will not matter. Jack Phillips Slowly beginning to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- Why does the bolt or rod that some of us have put though our straight though axles have to be welded? I'm probably missing something obvious but I don't know what. The rod can't jump out of the axle because there is a nut at the bottom that will prevent it from coming up through the torque tube. Thanks. Dave Paulsen ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:35 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: (no subject) pietenpol-list@matronics.com In a message dated 12/10/2004 11:17:06 AM Central Standard Time, JimNikls writes: Chuck, Thought you might get abit of comfort from the following "southern philosophy" Do not archive Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" From: JimNikls@aol.com Subject: (no subject) CliffGandy@aol.com, sam.burgess@rlhudson.com, WHC978@aol.com, Isablcorky@aol.com, degenere@bellsouth.net, dick@dethloffinsurance.com, REDet65@aol.com, ENHEND@aol.com, sunnyevans@sbcglobal.net, jimgraham@iopener.net, jana_green@jamail-kolius.com, herzog@Sport.rr.com, kmegill@yahoo.com, rekearneyjr@netzero.net, marc.kerlin@usoncology.com, Risksis@aol.com, Cyndynick@aol.com, ccpeavy@bellsouth.net, rhlehew@shaw.ca, Arkymar@aol.com, OUBob47@cox.net, mark@hcm3.com, hvaughan@sport.rr.com, jwwright@airmail.net -------------------------------1102699026 Holiday Eating Tips 1. Avoid carrot sticks. Anyone who puts carrots on a holiday buffet table knows nothing of the Christmas spirit. In fact, if you see carrots, leave immediately. Go next door, where they're serving rum balls. 2. Drink as much eggnog as you can. And quickly. Like fine single-malt scotch, it's rare. In fact, it's even rarer than single-malt scotch. You can't find it any other time of year but now. So drink up! Who cares that it has 10,000 calories in every sip? It's not as if you're going to turn into an eggnog-aholic or something. It's a treat. Enjoy it. Have one for me. Have two It's later than you think. It's Christmas! 3. If something comes with gravy, use it. That's the whole point of gravy. Gravy does not stand alone. Pour it on. Make a volcano out of your mashed potatoes. Fill it with gravy. Eat the volcano. Repeat. 4. As for mashed potatoes, always ask if they're made with skim milk or whole milk. If it's skim, pass. Why bother? It's like buying a sports car with an automatic transmission. 5. Do not have a snack before going to a party in an effort to control your eating. The whole point of going to a Christmas party is to eat other people's food for free. Lots of it. Hello? 6. Under no circumstances should you exercise between now and New Year's. You can do that in January when you have nothing else to do. This is the time for long naps, which you'll need after circling the buffet table while carrying a 10-pound plate of food and that vat of eggnog. 7. If you come across something really good at a buffet table, like frosted Christmas cookies in the shape and size of Santa, position yourself near them and don't budge. Have as many as you can before becoming the center of attention. They're like a beautiful pair of shoes. If you leave them behind, you're never going to see them again. 8. Same for pies. Apple. Pumpkin. Mincemeat. Have a slice of each. Or, if you don't like mincemeat, have two apples and one pumpkin. Always have three. When else do you get to have more than one dessert? Labor Day? 9. Did someone mention fruitcake? Granted, it's loaded with the mandatory celebratory calories, but avoid it at all cost. I mean, have some standards. 10. One final tip: If you don't feel terrible when you leave the party or get up from the table, you haven't been paying attention. Reread tips; start over, but hurry, January is just around the corner. Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" -------------------------------1102699026 Holiday=20Eating Tips 1. Avoid carrot sticks. Anyone who puts carrots on a holiday buffet table knows nothing of the Christmas spirit. In fact, if you see carrots, leave immediately. Go next door, where they're serving rum balls. 2. Drink as much eggnog as you can. And quickly. Like fine single-malt scotch, it's rare. In fact, it's even rarer than single-malt scotch. You can't find it any other time of year but now. So drink up! Who cares that it has 10,000 calories in every sip? It's not as if you're going to turn into an eggnog-aholic or something. It's a treat. Enjoy it. Have one for me. Have two It's later than you think. It's Christmas! 3. If something comes with gravy, use it. That's the whole point of gravy. Gravy does not stand alone. Pour it on. Make a volcano out of your mashed potatoes. Fill it with gravy. Eat the volcano. Repeat. 4. As for mashed potatoes, always ask if they're made with skim milk or whole milk. If it's skim, pass. Why bother? It's like buying a sports car with an automatic transmission. 5. Do not have a snack before going to a party in=20an effort to control your eating. The whole point of going to a Christmas party is to eat other people's food for free. Lots of it. Hello? 6. Under no circumstances should you exercise between now and New Year's. You can do that in January when you have nothing else to do. This is the time for long naps, which you'll need after circling the buffet table while carrying a 10-pound plate of food and that vat of eggnog. 7. If=20you come across something really good at a buffet table, like frosted Christmas cookies in the shape and size of Santa, position yourself near them and don't budge. Have as many as you can before becoming the center of attention. They're like a beautiful pair of shoes. If you leave them behind, you're never going to see them again. 8. Same for pies. Apple. Pumpkin. Mincemeat. Have a slice of each. Or, if you don't like mincemeat, have two apples and one pumpkin. Always have three. When else do you get to have more than one dessert? Labor Day? 9. Did someone mention fruitcake? Granted, it's loaded with the mandatory celebratory calories, but avoid it at all cost. I mean, have some standards. 10. One final tip: If you don't feel terrible when you leave the party or get up from=20the table, you haven't been paying attention. Reread tips; start over, but hurry, January is just around the corner. Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" -------------------------------1102699026-- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod From: "Phillips, Jack" Neat idea, John. I haden't seen that one before. You actually probably only need one arm on the spreader bar and one on the axle, not two. How well does it hold the axle from shifting sideways? Jack -----Original Message----- Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:29 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Torque Tube Rod Jack, Actually you are right, however, I wanted to divide the load between one link in compression and the other in tension. This is possible by adjusting each link with the female threaded ends and lock nuts so that both will share the load. Mr. Pietenpol just let the axle ride in the "V" angle of the landing gear struts with out worrying about the side to side movement. This movement is pretty well restrained by the bungee cords anyway. When I was first looking into building a Piet, I asked an old timer this very question, and his answer was: "Hell, I just kick the axle back to the center every so often!" Doesn't seem to bother the takeoffs or landings if the axle has shifted slightly. John John Neat idea, John. I haden't seen that one before. You actually probably only need one arm on the spreader bar and one on the axle, not two. How well does it hold the axle from shifting sideways? Jack -----Original Message----- Pardon me for jumping into this discussion about how to keep the straight axle from rotating when the brakes are applied. May I suggest an alternative method of doing this so that the axle is free to move in any direction without excessive strain on welded joints? I also believe that the integrity of the axle is not compromised by cutting a hole through it and I think this is a lighter solution to the problem. I have attached a photo of the installation on my ex- "Mountain Piet". You just weld a couple of 3" tabs on the top and bottom of the axle in the middle. Do the same thing on the rear spreader bar. Now drill some 1/4" holes at the top and bottom of the tabs to use Heim joints. Then connect the Heim joints with a 1/2" round aluminum rod drilled and tapped for the 1/4-20 threads of the Heim joints so that when when the whole thing is assembled you have a parallelogram formed by the tabs and links. The system works well. If I were to do it over again, the only change I would make would be to use a rear spreader bar with a little thicker wall so that it is not as apt to bend under loading. Hope this is helpful in your decision. John ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:11 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mountain Piet Jack and Alex, Since you are both interested in the axle restraining link I used, there are some other pictures of the axle and landing gear details on Oscar Zuniga's website at : http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/John_piet.html John ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:31 PM PST US From: "Richard Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: repairman From the responses, it's obvious things are done differently around the country. I don't expect that the FAA guy is doing anything but his job. I have a very complete builders log and with the very thorough going over I got on my airworthieness inspection with 2 inspectors at the same time, I am ready with a complete operations manual. I just hadn't heard comments on the list about things the inspector had asked for but no one else had been told they need to write and operation manual either. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:30 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: (no subject) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rcaprd@aol.com In a message dated 12/10/04 1:13:04 PM Central Standard Time, Isablcorky@aol.com writes: << Chuck, Thought you might get abit of comfort from the following "southern philosophy" Do not archive Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" >> Corky, I love this 'Southern Philosophy !! Now, excuse me, while I go Party Hearty all night, then go do the 'River Run' tomorrow afternoon !! YEEE HAAAWWW !!! Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:48 PM PST US From: "David Paulsen" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Tube Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:41 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Tube ----- Original Message ----- From: David Paulsen To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Torque Tube Dave, I suspect that it really depends upon the species of wood that is used in the landing gear. Maybe the Fly Baby used a wood in the gear that was not suitable for shock loads? Or maybe the wood used had flaws in it such as pitch pockets, grain run out, or was not a quarter cut specimen. You might want to get the EAA book "Wood ???" which will give guidelines for suitable woods and the required characteristics for aircraft use. I used two pieces of 1/2" ash laminated together for each gear leg and then used an old fashioned draw knife to form the airfoiled cross section. This gear has survived some terrible landings that I have made without any damage. John Thanks John, for the idea and the photos. I can't help but notice that virtually everyone has sanded down or shaped their wooden landing gear struts from the top to the bottom brackets. It does look good and saves weight. However, I once had an off field landing in a Flybaby and the wooden legs broke like toothpicks. So I haven't done any sanding or shaping with the Piet gear thinking that the amount of weight saved may not be worth the loss of extra strength. Any comments? Dave Paulsen