---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/20/04: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 PM - Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** (Bert Conoly) 2. 04:57 PM - Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** (DJ Vegh) 3. 05:03 PM - Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** (TomTravis@aol.com) 4. 05:24 PM - Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** (Galen Hutcheson) 5. 08:03 PM - Re: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** (Catdesign) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:52 PM PST US s=test1; d=earthlink.net; b=deuoMSjMh6s6mIxCUAkyDuNZF75OAQPYIxbPBbuebixKRI99D/yurM9kUsTCa9m1; From: "Bert Conoly" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:06 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** what a big pot of shit. I'd be inclined to go with option 3 for the time being. to hell with them. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:40 PM PST US From: TomTravis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Bert, There's a hotline you can call to report bad service like that from the FAA. Maybe somebody on the board knows what it is. You don't have to put up with that sort of treatment. Tom Travis ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:18 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=OHPanm7l/a79ziedKpLP2g/u9fTIJNAPBE25/lG0kJkDJEFO9oQ9JrCiIFYTFoptVRFLNbIiwJPUikZQcTDfHYUGXmCMv+JtwSBAZvU8wjQupgk5WToLs8tgYct9hk89tR7TkMOShb0FWYSvOPTuX8HYdYNAIKjVa/U3hmUUeik= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Bert, sounds like you are getting the royal shaft and government run-a-round. They probably turned your request over to some wet-behind-the-ears newbie who is probably right out of A&P school and who wants to flaunt his "authority" around like some kind of peacock. I would go with option 3 or I would write to some congressmen and senators. That kind of clout usually gets more response. Another way to handle this situation is to make good friend with an A&P, IA and work out a deal with him. You do the inspections and he signs off on them. Of course, you want to be generous and you want to allow him to get to know you and your work and let him look over your work if he wants to, but that is one way to get around having to pay for expensive annuals. If they give me that kind of run-around, I'll get pissed too. Just my 2 cents worth. Doc > __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:15 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Hey Bert, I sure wish I had your problems....... Still building very slowly in Sacramento Chris Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert Conoly To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman - ahhhh... more FAA CR** Well. I'm glad some of you are having good experiences with the FAA. I've just found out that I have to make a 4 hour (one way) trip to Tampa to the Tampa FSDO to be "interviewed" so they can "grant" me a repairman certificate - on an airplane I spent 10 years building. Now a trip across town or even down the road may not be unreasonable, but a 600 mile round trip is an unreasonable hardship in my book. Now don't forget that THEIR (FAA) designee ( DAR) that THEY agree to allow to act on THEIR behalf came to MY hangar and spent a great deal of time establishing that I 1) Built my plane, 2) I Have some acceptable level of ability - at least enough to BUILD an airplane that he's determined is airworthy 3) I Have proven that I can read, interpret and apply regulations and requirements, 4) I am who I say I am and E) I have jumped through every imaginable hoop required by the FAA so far . Now, also don't lose the fact that I payed a fairly substantial fee to THEIR Designee to provide such assistance. I figure counting travel time , inspection time, and paper work time comes out to about $100 per hour. Now if I had known my DAR could sign off on my Special Airworthiness Certificate but couldn't sign off on my Repairman's Certificate, I'd have gotten in line and waited on an FAA A/W inspector to do it. Assuming they could or would. But now I payed big dollars for a partial service. Typical government innefficiency. With THEIR (FAA's) constant whining about overstaffing, underbudgeting, and "heavy" workload, I felt paying for said services would insure a timely, stream-lined turnkey certification - including issuance of the repairman certificate. I assumed it was worth it . Hmmm. Moral to this story is NEVER assume anything when dealing with the FAA or any other agency for that matter. Now I know for a fact (trust me, I am close to three other recent experimental inspections) that some FSDOs are NOT requiring applicants to travel (hundreds of miles) to be "interviewed". They are accepting a letter of reference from the DAR along with the application and support information submitted by the applicant. Evidently some FSDOs require a little interview. Now my dilemna is how to proceed from here. Looks like I have three options: 1) Take a day off from my work and go down there and grovel to them so they can "grant" me the right to work on my own damn plane - remember... the one THAT I BUILT? - Oh yeah did I mention that FAA is not open on weekends or holidays either - but thats ok because you have to "schedule an appointment" anyway so it's not likely I'll miss them. This doesn't sound to me like the Feds are, although funded by fees and taxes collected from the public,, making much effort to be "user friendly". 2) Kick and scream - write a few letters , maybe call a FAA regional head honcho? How about a critical letter to a few well placed aviation mags? Boy, this one should really insure my application is turned down. or 3) Simply forget the whole thing. I built it - its mine, and I maybe just work on it myself - repairman's Certificate or not. Never deal with that bunch again. Oh, but then I'd be in violation of the FAR' s wouldn't I.. By the way, it did pass inspection Sunday but high winds prohibited a first flight. I'll fly it in a few days. So I can build it and fly it, I just can't work on it....... Right now I'm just p***** that I have to go through all this stuff for a bunch of bureaus. . Bert ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aircraft repairman Good for you, Dick! I just got my permanent Repairmans Certificate in the mail yesterday. Gotta admit, after having a forced landing on a US highway 2 weeks ago, I was a bit fearful to open an envelope from the FAA. The FSDO has already closed out my "incident" though and said there will be no repercussions. After all the horror stories one hears about the FAA I was very pleasantly surprised by how nice and helpful they were. This was the Greensboro FSDO that I was dealing with (they handle all the USAir stuff out of Charlotte). Jack Phillips Finally starting to repair NX899JP -----Original Message----- I just returned from my FAA interview which went just fine. After the various comments on the list here which I very much appreciate, I realize there are big differences around the country in how inspectors handle many of their duties. One big reason for this might be the type of FAA office we deal with. The office that I went to for this certificate is located at the Minneapolis airport which is home base for Northwest Airlines. There was a steady stream of people coming in for airline related ratings. Technicians in avionics shops, propeller repairs or other specialty fields who arent an A&P need to be an Aircraft Repairman. Things in the larger FAA offices just need to be more formal. My airworthieness inspection was by the Aircraft Manufacturing office and this was by Flight Standards. I suspect anyone going to Atlanta, Dallas or other airline bases will run into the same. The interview was about 15 minutes while I filled out a second copy of the application and he went thru my builders log and operations manual and asked a few questioins about wing construction and dihedrial. He was impressed with my Harley wheels and asked about what areas I had help with. I got the impression that he just wanted to be sure that I didn't just buy a completed project and claim to have built it. It was a pleasant experience, I didn't have to write a check and I've got my certificate so I'm happy. Dick N.