----------------------------------------------------------
                           Pietenpol-List Digest Archive
                                      ---
                     Total Messages Posted Wed 12/22/04: 12
           ----------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:34 PM - Winter construction  (Fox, John)
     2. 01:52 PM - Re: Winter construction  (alexms1@comcast.net)
     3. 02:52 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Galen Hutcheson)
     4. 02:54 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Galen Hutcheson)
     5. 03:19 PM - Re: Winter construction  (gbowen@ptialaska.net)
     6. 04:28 PM - Re: Winter construction  (DJ Vegh)
     7. 05:04 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Garry Low)
     8. 05:07 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Richard Navratil)
     9. 05:14 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Galen Hutcheson)
    10. 05:20 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Galen Hutcheson)
    11. 07:06 PM - Re: Winter construction - Manufacturer's Info on the Web  (John E. Joyce)
    12. 07:06 PM - Re: Winter construction  (Clif Dawson)
 
 
 
________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________


Time: 01:34:34 PM PST US
From: "Fox, John" <John.Fox@na.SunChem.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction


Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?  I would like to
do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the
glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above freezing but still get
quite cold.

John Fox


This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information
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intended only for the use of the addressee named above.  No confidentiality or
privilege is
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message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?
I would like to do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried
about
the glue not curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still
get quite cold.


<span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>John Fox


<span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>


This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information
and is

intended only for the use of the addressee named above.  No confidentiality or
privilege is

waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you are not the intended recipient
of this

message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in
any form or

take any action in reliance on it.


________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________


Time: 01:52:35 PM PST US
From: alexms1@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

John,
I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps down to
35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get
down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed back up
and all seems to be O.K.  Test pieces always seem to be strong.
Alex Sloan

-------------- Original message -------------- 

Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?  I would like to do
some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not
curing properly.  Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold.
John Fox

This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information
and is
intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege
is
waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient
of this
message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in
any form or
take any action in reliance on it.

John,
I am using T88 and working with the understanding it will work in temps down to
35-40 degrees. I glue up when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get
down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop and it has warmed back up
and all seems to be O.K. Test pieces always seem to be strong.
Alex Sloan

-------------- Original message -------------- 


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Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy? I would like to do
some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue not
curing properly. Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold.


John Fox


This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information
and is
intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege
is
waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended recipient
of this
message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in
any form or
take any action in reliance on it.


________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________


Time: 02:52:23 PM PST US
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=kyWVMwLhLXpTB7leYAWUGPYB8iv9dS4WFPvp/LOO8KkYlMzgap/QSAiGQZCT0Om/ls6JtgJa2QZFCPpV5FmYJfAXeuLIQB4rSBZnO4fqxdv+31mKaPwSLeZ5Qy9QGaxAZU/wZNu+kwy3EjP3B+COMYXs8TwVaG/Q7euBZVVfN94=
;
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>

John, I think the company advertises the glue to be
useful down to 34 degrees F.  I think also that Tony
Bengellis recommends not to glue (not sure if he was
specific about T-88 or not) below 70 degrees.  I have
used T-88 successfully down to 60, but below that the
glue gets very thick and difficult to work with.  It
seems to adhere quite well though.

Doc
--- "Fox, John" <John.Fox@na.SunChem.com> wrote:

> 
> Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88
> epoxy?  I would like to
> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but
> am worried about the
> glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> freezing but still get
> quite cold.
> 
> John Fox
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> or legally privileged information and is
> intended only for the use of the addressee named
> above.  No confidentiality or privilege is
> waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you
> are not the intended recipient of this
> message you are hereby notified that you must not
> use, disseminate, copy it in any form or
> take any action in reliance on it.


                
__________________________________ 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo 


________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________


Time: 02:54:58 PM PST US
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=TwabKhxuF+EWcDV6PinRhHaZv+1oZUMusJBARuxUeOWrKiGRMXSTsFmKSF0q1cX8Pq3U5YbXV7rSXlNP7lsySXKuBfSVrg/1MZOz2h9hUjkfgAjGluq0xqSHuOESIUaEQklfsbNtHOhV4RQGu1SzaPOSPcqIcaTjZGlNXvAxaTI=
;
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>

I would like to add to Alex's comment though that I
recall the company recommending that the glued joint
be exposed to 70 degrees for at least 24 hours before
heavy loads are attempted.  I think I am correct in
that.

Doc
--- alexms1@comcast.net wrote:

> John,
> I am using T88 and working with the understanding it
> will work in temps down to 35-40 degrees. I glue up
> when it is in the high 40's and at night it may get
> down to freezing or below but next visit to the shop
> and it has warmed back up and all seems to be O.K. 
> Test pieces always seem to be strong.
> Alex Sloan
> 
> -------------- Original message -------------- 
> 
> Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88
> epoxy?  I would like to do some fuselage work in my
> garage this winter, but am worried about the glue
> not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> freezing but still get quite cold.
> John Fox
> 
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> or legally privileged information and is
> intended only for the use of the addressee named
> above. No confidentiality or privilege is
> waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you
> are not the intended recipient of this
> message you are hereby notified that you must not
> use, disseminate, copy it in any form or
> take any action in reliance on it.


                
__________________________________ 
http://my.yahoo.com 


________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________


Time: 03:19:23 PM PST US
From: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>

Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions. This means that the
reaction will continue until complete, but the reaction rate varies with
the ambient temperature.  All manufacturers report their data at 25 degree
C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities, etc.  The chemical
reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees C you vary from the 25
degree reported data you will double your reaction rate or you'll halve the
reaction rate if you're going down in temps.  Soooooo, you could expect at
40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate about 4 times slower
than at 25 degree C.  Generally speaking all room temp, hand laminating
epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure completely in less
than 14 days.  Soooooo, I would not put too much stress on your 40 F hand
laminate for about 45 days.  Better yet, build a "hot room" under your
workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges or some insulation
foam, and put in a small space heater.  Give it about 7 days under the
"curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait until next summer, it's
just 180 days until first day of summer.
Gordon Bowen


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Fox, John John.Fox@na.SunChem.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction


Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?  I would like to
do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the
glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above freezing but still get
quite cold.

John Fox


This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged
information and is
intended only for the use of the addressee named above.  No confidentiality
or privilege is
waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this
message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it
in any form or
take any action in reliance on it.


________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________


Time: 04:28:10 PM PST US
From: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" <djv@imagedv.com>

the key to using T-88 in cold climates is to have the glue warmed to around 
80-90F prior the intial mixing.  This will speed up the curing process and 
produce a good joint in shorter amount of time.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction


> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson 
> <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
> John, I think the company advertises the glue to be
> useful down to 34 degrees F.  I think also that Tony
> Bengellis recommends not to glue (not sure if he was
> specific about T-88 or not) below 70 degrees.  I have
> used T-88 successfully down to 60, but below that the
> glue gets very thick and difficult to work with.  It
> seems to adhere quite well though.
>
> Doc


________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________


Time: 05:04:06 PM PST US
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=fGjpasUaVozG1qItlY2x6FDIr1Xe9efyFmI7cfV6XLks1fy14ERx6n2nQnEt16V9KvEC8xl/jqlhIWTSj4hbH7h29vgF+p2WR/ZXpDvpThZBbPs5APO3/QkcNpOrAEDtVJjf0cqVs1Q2SnX9u9Mb3mfwrccySjnCC4uarXcT8DE=
;
From: Garry Low <hux58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Garry Low <hux58@yahoo.com>

--- "Fox, John" <John.Fox@na.SunChem.com> wrote:

> 
> Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88
> epoxy?  I would like to
> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but
> am worried about the
> glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> freezing but still get
> quite cold.
> might want to use a heat lamp for your containers of
glue,this would at least help your batches be easier
to work.
Garry Low
> John Fox
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> or legally privileged information and is
> intended only for the use of the addressee named
> above.  No confidentiality or privilege is
> waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you
> are not the intended recipient of this
> message you are hereby notified that you must not
> use, disseminate, copy it in any form or
> take any action in reliance on it.


                
__________________________________ 
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________


Time: 05:07:58 PM PST US
From: "Richard Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers.  They recommend
50 deg.  I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight.
Dick
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Fox, John
  To: Pietenpol-List@matronics.com
  Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:34 PM
  Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction


  Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?  I would like to
do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue
not curing properly.  Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold.

  John Fox


        This message may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged
information and is
        intended only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality
or privilege is
        waived or lost by any error in transmission. If you are not the intended
recipient of this
        message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy
it in any form or
        take any action in reliance on it.
      

________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________


Time: 05:14:29 PM PST US
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=KuY7xIihmw7ZKY6HTyAmI4PvzaWOVIOYEeIe1zctHwbKLbP2QbuqMsTVS93nbdkxV3C1t7dPNKBTpnyrwjEfPpHsMLLgRZDFK2zjOKHXMKoUCCFz5OWeGqScCkWcmQpUL9bYg5/76fWLVxo1aC9YoPzDq4kamEGyRj2fdH9d0tg=
;
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>

I started taking the glue bottles inside the house and
let them get to ambient temp.  This works very well
too.
--- Garry Low <hux58@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Garry Low
> <hux58@yahoo.com>
> 
> --- "Fox, John" <John.Fox@na.SunChem.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for
> T88
> > epoxy?  I would like to
> > do some fuselage work in my garage this winter,
> but
> > am worried about the
> > glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> > freezing but still get
> > quite cold.
> > might want to use a heat lamp for your containers
> of
> glue,this would at least help your batches be easier
> to work.
> Garry Low
> > John Fox
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> > or legally privileged information and is
> > intended only for the use of the addressee named
> > above.  No confidentiality or privilege is
> > waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If
> you
> > are not the intended recipient of this
> > message you are hereby notified that you must not
> > use, disseminate, copy it in any form or
> > take any action in reliance on it.
> 
> 
> 
>                 
> __________________________________ 
> search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
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>
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 


                
__________________________________ 
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________________________________  Message 10  ____________________________________


Time: 05:20:38 PM PST US
  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
  b=pdDkV8I5dXuweXlVMqzTkqYBtbIbGxpr625yqNzuBcEWseFTGbX/VYC2EKnzCWDMI9tChsWMlJx00g6OxHBQLvsxeQKBo/Qu/gL9lqro5sdKV25WLvoTYXn+GhrYNFJck15lZkhjmYCj25vm4mKE1u3xAPW5EAAEAUtd3wDmAJI=
;
From: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>

Most of the glue joints I making now probably won't
fly for another year yet (sigh) so I guess I'm ok. :)
I'm using heaters to get the garage (workshop)up to
around 60 degrees, so that helps.

Doc
--- "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
wrote:

> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
> 
> Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions.
> This means that the
> reaction will continue until complete, but the
> reaction rate varies with
> the ambient temperature.  All manufacturers report
> their data at 25 degree
> C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities,
> etc.  The chemical
> reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees
> C you vary from the 25
> degree reported data you will double your reaction
> rate or you'll halve the
> reaction rate if you're going down in temps. 
> Soooooo, you could expect at
> 40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate
> about 4 times slower
> than at 25 degree C.  Generally speaking all room
> temp, hand laminating
> epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure
> completely in less
> than 14 days.  Soooooo, I would not put too much
> stress on your 40 F hand
> laminate for about 45 days.  Better yet, build a
> "hot room" under your
> workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges
> or some insulation
> foam, and put in a small space heater.  Give it
> about 7 days under the
> "curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait
> until next summer, it's
> just 180 days until first day of summer.
> Gordon Bowen
> 
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Fox, John John.Fox@na.SunChem.com
> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:34:08 -0600
> To: Pietenpol-List@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction
> 
> 
> 
> Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88
> epoxy?  I would like to
> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but
> am worried about the
> glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> freezing but still get
> quite cold.
> 
> John Fox
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> or legally privileged
> information and is
> intended only for the use of the addressee named
> above.  No confidentiality
> or privilege is
> waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you
> are not the intended
> recipient of this
> message you are hereby notified that you must not
> use, disseminate, copy it
> in any form or
> take any action in reliance on it.
> 
>
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 


                
__________________________________ 
http://my.yahoo.com 


________________________________  Message 11  ____________________________________


Time: 07:06:31 PM PST US
From: "John E. Joyce" <jayejay@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction - Manufacturer's Info on the Web

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John E. Joyce" <jayejay@comcast.net>

Folks:
Check out System Three's website at
http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp

T-88 spec sheet  http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf

T-88 MSDS   http://www.systemthree.com/msds/MSDS_T-88.pdf

John

John Joyce
North Reading, Massachusetts

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Galen
Hutcheson
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction

--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson
<wacopitts@yahoo.com>

Most of the glue joints I making now probably won't
fly for another year yet (sigh) so I guess I'm ok. :)
I'm using heaters to get the garage (workshop)up to
around 60 degrees, so that helps.

Doc
--- "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
wrote:

> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> "gbowen@ptialaska.net" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
> 
> Epoxy resins of all types are addition reactions.
> This means that the
> reaction will continue until complete, but the
> reaction rate varies with
> the ambient temperature.  All manufacturers report
> their data at 25 degree
> C., ie. gel times, time to "full cure", viscosities,
> etc.  The chemical
> reaction rate rule of thumb is: for very 10 degrees
> C you vary from the 25
> degree reported data you will double your reaction
> rate or you'll halve the
> reaction rate if you're going down in temps. 
> Soooooo, you could expect at
> 40F or about 5 degrees C you'd have a reaction rate
> about 4 times slower
> than at 25 degree C.  Generally speaking all room
> temp, hand laminating
> epoxy resins designed to work at 25 C, will not cure
> completely in less
> than 14 days.  Soooooo, I would not put too much
> stress on your 40 F hand
> laminate for about 45 days.  Better yet, build a
> "hot room" under your
> workbench by stapling plastic film around the edges
> or some insulation
> foam, and put in a small space heater.  Give it
> about 7 days under the
> "curing bench" then go ahead and assemble, or wait
> until next summer, it's
> just 180 days until first day of summer.
> Gordon Bowen
> 
> 
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Fox, John John.Fox@na.SunChem.com
> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 15:34:08 -0600
> To: Pietenpol-List@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction
> 
> 
> 
> Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88
> epoxy?  I would like to
> do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but
> am worried about the
> glue not curing properly.  Temperatures are above
> freezing but still get
> quite cold.
> 
> John Fox
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> This message may contain confidential, proprietary
> or legally privileged
> information and is
> intended only for the use of the addressee named
> above.  No confidentiality
> or privilege is
> waived or lost by any error in transmission.  If you
> are not the intended
> recipient of this
> message you are hereby notified that you must not
> use, disseminate, copy it
> in any form or
> take any action in reliance on it.
> 
>
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 


                
__________________________________ 
http://my.yahoo.com 


________________________________  Message 12  ____________________________________


Time: 07:06:43 PM PST US
From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Winter construction
 <001a01c4e88b$d3169ff0$0600a8c0@laptop>

http://www.systemthree.com/index_2.asp

http://www.systemthree.com/members/tds/T-88_TDS.pdf

The first link is their homepage. Go here and sign in as a member.

The second is direct to the pdf tech pages for T88. The second
page tells you that it is formulated for full strength cure down to
35=B0 F, just takes a lot longer. Be carefull with heating and
mixing. I warmed mine in hot water and it hardened before the
pieces were properly put together.Good thing it was something
small!!

On page one you will see a shear verses temp blurb on glue/Alum.
I take this to mean the glue failed. IF this is so then the same would
apply to wood/glue. IF this is so then spruce, at a shear strength of
1120 lb would equal the T88 strength at approx 170=B0. This doesn't
sound good until you calculate the square inches of material being
glued and realize that the OVERALL strength of that joint probably
exceeds the required strength by a fair margin.

If you have a joint that will be subjected to no more than 1000 lb
but the area of that joint is 3 sq in. then the joint is capable of
handling 3000 lb at 180=B0 so will be safe to some higher temp.
A good thing if you live in Florida or Texas. None of our flying
planes have fallen apart yet even though some have some pretty
dark paint on them.

If you want Wood Strength tables go here. Scroll to the bottom;

http://clifdawson.ca/Tools_and_Tips.html

Clif

  ----- Original Message -----
  I did some glueing last night and checked the T-88 containers.  They recommend
50 deg.  I left the hangar at 50 and my joints were set tonight.
  Dick

    Doe anyone know the temperature restrictions for T88 epoxy?  I would like to
do some fuselage work in my garage this winter, but am worried about the glue
not curing properly.  Temperatures are above freezing but still get quite cold.

    John Fox