Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: Testing a rib (NEMuzzy)
2. 05:27 AM - Re: Re: Testing a rib (Michael D Cuy)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Testing a rib (Phillips, Jack)
4. 12:24 PM - Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (N321TX@wmconnect.com)
5. 12:41 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (Michael D Cuy)
6. 12:50 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (Phillips, Jack)
7. 01:09 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (DJ Vegh)
8. 01:09 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (walt evans)
9. 01:18 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (DJ Vegh)
10. 02:00 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (Jim Ash)
11. 02:44 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (Jim Markle)
12. 02:57 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (N321TX@wmconnect.com)
13. 03:06 PM - Shipping cost (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
14. 03:09 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (Jim Markle)
15. 03:14 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (DJ Vegh)
16. 06:28 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (N321TX@wmconnect.com)
17. 09:40 PM - Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Jake Crause)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: Testing a rib |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "NEMuzzy" <list01@GourmetDamage.com>
What is an appropriate method to break a wing rib?
I built one tonight using stables to hold the gussets on. When I removed it
from the jig, I found that there was not enough strength in the stapled
joints to keep the rib in shape. Basically, things were shifting and
twisting. From here on out I will go back to letting the rib cure in the
jig. The rib tonight will be scrap, and I would like to bust it.
I have had the best results from gluing all of the rib and gussets together
at one time. Basically, putting a set of gussets into the jig, then all the
rib sticks, then the other set of gussets. When I put one of the 3 inch
split PVC clamps on each gusset everything is held firmly. After cure, the
rib is removed, and everything looks really good. If I don't use that much
pressure, sometimes a stick will not be seated fully, and the gusset will
not have good contact with all of the mating sticks. I am concerned that I
might be putting too much pressure on the T88 and be starving the joint.
I tried a rib with Resorcinol so as to not have the pressure concern. It
worked OK, but the T88 made a better looking rib (gap filling).
Any insight would be appreciated.
Regards-
Norm Muzzy
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Testing a rib |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>What is an appropriate method to break a wing rib?
Do not install the wing tip bow and attempt to tighten your drag and anti
drag wires in the outer
bay. I did this and when the end rib failed it did so with such a force
that the noise it generated made
me think that someone had fired a cannon in my living room.
Mike C.
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: Testing a rib |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com>
Look at the loads imposed on a rib in flight. Generally, most of the
loading is applied to the lower capstrip, through air pressure on the
fabric on the bottom of the wing and the partial vacuum (reduced
pressure) from the air flowing over the top of the airfoil, transmitted
to the lower capstrip through the rib lacing (some load is carried by
the top capstrips, through the glue attaching the fabric to the top
capstrips). If you assume the worst case, a 3.2 G pullout from a dive
at max gross weight (say, 1100 lbs), with a 50% safety factor thrown in
for good measure, the total load seen by the wing is 1100 x 3.2 x 1.5 or
5,280 lbs. If you assume that this load is evenly distributed over the
30 ribs, each rib is carrying a total load of 176 lbs. Further assuming
that the load is evenly distributed along the 60" length of each rib,
this works out to a loading of just under 3 lbs per inch of rib length.
If you can suspend your rib to hang upside down, supported on two stubs
of spars secured to your workbench and then press down with a flat piece
of plywood 12" wide bearing down on a flat section of the rib and load
it with 36 lbs of whatever you want, this would be a reasonable
approximation of the actual loading.
Having said all that, the main thing you want to check with glue joints
is that the wood around the joint fails before the joint does. Any
method you can apply to a joint to break it (except trying peel the
doublers off - glue is not very strong in "peel strength") should
demonstrate that the wood breaks first. If the glue joint breaks and
the wood is intact, there's something wrong with your gluing technique.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NEMuzzy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: Testing a rib
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "NEMuzzy"
<list01@GourmetDamage.com>
What is an appropriate method to break a wing rib?
I built one tonight using stables to hold the gussets on. When I
removed it
from the jig, I found that there was not enough strength in the stapled
joints to keep the rib in shape. Basically, things were shifting and
twisting. From here on out I will go back to letting the rib cure in
the
jig. The rib tonight will be scrap, and I would like to bust it.
I have had the best results from gluing all of the rib and gussets
together
at one time. Basically, putting a set of gussets into the jig, then all
the
rib sticks, then the other set of gussets. When I put one of the 3 inch
split PVC clamps on each gusset everything is held firmly. After cure,
the
rib is removed, and everything looks really good. If I don't use that
much
pressure, sometimes a stick will not be seated fully, and the gusset
will
not have good contact with all of the mating sticks. I am concerned
that I
might be putting too much pressure on the T88 and be starving the joint.
I tried a rib with Resorcinol so as to not have the pressure concern.
It
worked OK, but the T88 made a better looking rib (gap filling).
Any insight would be appreciated.
Regards-
Norm Muzzy
Message 4
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| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
I called AS&S early this morning thinking I would order some 1/16th inch
thick plywood, 48 inches by 48 inches. The plywood was reasonable, just $24 but
the lady quoted me a price of $120.00 to ship it.
I then called Wicks. They wanted somewhere around $50 for the same piece of
plywood, but this time the lady on the phone said "I can't tell you about
shipping, the guys downstairs to that.."
Is this reasonable, sales (at Wicks) not knowing what the left hand is doing
and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of 48 inch by 48 inch plywood
a couple of states away?
S.B.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Sterling--- I went to UPS and it varied for a 50"x50"x2" 5 lb. package from
110 to 150 $$$$$$ !!!!
Try the FedEx ground web site. Both of these sites have calculators to
see how much things cost to ship------I certainly don't recall it being
sooeee outrageous !
Mike
http://www.ups.com/
http://www.fedex.com/us/services/us/ground.html
Message 6
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| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
The problem is that when you get big pieces like that (beyond the sizes
UPS can ship), it has to go by truck and that gets expensive quickly. I
tried to have all my big stuff (spars, longerons, plywood sheets)
shipped at once so I only had to eat such a cost once. Actually, I did
do it twice - I got my spars from Wicks and my longerons and plywood
from ASS a couple of years later. As I recall it was about $100 each
time for shipping - and that was just to the trucking companiy's
terminal. I still had to manage to get the stuff from the trucking
company to my house.
Jack Phillips
Finishing the structural repairs to NX899JP this weekend, then on to
fabric repairs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
N321TX@wmconnect.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
I called AS&S early this morning thinking I would order some 1/16th inch
thick plywood, 48 inches by 48 inches. The plywood was reasonable, just
$24 but the lady quoted me a price of $120.00 to ship it.
I then called Wicks. They wanted somewhere around $50 for the same piece
of plywood, but this time the lady on the phone said "I can't tell you
about shipping, the guys downstairs to that.."
Is this reasonable, sales (at Wicks) not knowing what the left hand is
doing and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of 48 inch by 48
inch plywood a couple of states away?
S.B.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
Airborne Express is the cheapest when it comes to this stuff... and they'll deliver
it to your house. That's how my big 4x8 sheets of ply came and it was reasonably
priced
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
The problem is that when you get big pieces like that (beyond the sizes UPS can
ship), it has to go by truck and that gets expensive quickly. I tried to have
all my big stuff (spars, longerons, plywood sheets) shipped at once so I only
had to eat such a cost once. Actually, I did do it twice - I got my spars
from Wicks and my longerons and plywood from ASS a couple of years later. As
I recall it was about $100 each time for shipping - and that was just to the
trucking companiy's terminal. I still had to manage to get the stuff from the
trucking company to my house.
Jack Phillips
Finishing the structural repairs to NX899JP this weekend, then on to fabric repairs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N321TX@wmconnect.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:24 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
I called AS&S early this morning thinking I would order some 1/16th inch thick
plywood, 48 inches by 48 inches. The plywood was reasonable, just $24 but the
lady quoted me a price of $120.00 to ship it.
I then called Wicks. They wanted somewhere around $50 for the same piece of plywood,
but this time the lady on the phone said "I can't tell you about shipping,
the guys downstairs to that.."
Is this reasonable, sales (at Wicks) not knowing what the left hand is doing
and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of 48 inch by 48 inch plywood
a couple of states away?
S.B.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
S.B.
You wrote it like AS&S has a shipping company. They are just passing along the
rates from the shipping people.
Due to the size it's probably going by truck.
When I was doing my leading edge, they were nice enough to rip it into 4 pieces
12' X 96" which is leagel UPS size.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: N321TX@wmconnect.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
<snip>
and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of <snip>
S.B.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
I got my plywood (1 4x8 sheet of 1/4" BS1088 and 3 sheets of 1/8" 4x8 BS1088 Okoume)
from Noah's Marine for about $300 and that included freight (which was
about $100 as I recall)
DJ
----- Original Message -----
From: N321TX@wmconnect.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
I called AS&S early this morning thinking I would order some 1/16th inch thick
plywood, 48 inches by 48 inches. The plywood was reasonable, just $24 but the
lady quoted me a price of $120.00 to ship it.
I then called Wicks. They wanted somewhere around $50 for the same piece of plywood,
but this time the lady on the phone said "I can't tell you about shipping,
the guys downstairs to that.."
Is this reasonable, sales (at Wicks) not knowing what the left hand is doing
and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of 48 inch by 48 inch plywood
a couple of states away?
S.B.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
FYI on shipping light stuff -
When I worked for Fedex, shipping cost rate was based on package weight.
But there was also an internal calculation they did called 'dimensional
weight', which is what they would end up charging if you shipped a large
box of air. I don't remember the calculations, but the net result was to
generate a 'weight' based on dimensions for oversized packages. I don't
remember when they applied it versus just the normal package weight.
Jim Ash
At 2/24/2005 03:40 PM -0500, you wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
><Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
>Sterling--- I went to UPS and it varied for a 50"x50"x2" 5 lb. package
>from 110 to 150 $$$$$$ !!!!
>
>Try the FedEx ground web site. Both of these sites have calculators to
>see how much things cost to ship------I certainly don't recall it being
>sooeee outrageous !
>
>Mike
>
>http://www.ups.com/
>
>
>http://www.fedex.com/us/services/us/ground.html
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
I get all my ply from Alpha Aviation in Greenville (about a 30 minute drive East
(sort of) from Dallas).....same price as AS&S, only costs driving out to see
Russ and is a LOT more fun to deal with (he's a really nice guy)......
Or how about I "ship" it to Plano for $100 (that's a $40 savings!!!) and you "stop
by" and pick it up???? Isn't that a win-win?????
jm
----- Original Message -----
From: N321TX@wmconnect.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
I called AS&S early this morning thinking I would order some 1/16th inch thick
plywood, 48 inches by 48 inches. The plywood was reasonable, just $24 but the
lady quoted me a price of $120.00 to ship it.
I then called Wicks. They wanted somewhere around $50 for the same piece of plywood,
but this time the lady on the phone said "I can't tell you about shipping,
the guys downstairs to that.."
Is this reasonable, sales (at Wicks) not knowing what the left hand is doing
and AS&S getting $120 for shipping a thin piece of 48 inch by 48 inch plywood
a couple of states away?
S.B.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
Problem solved!
I'm heading to Alpha Aviation in Greenville. Long drive from Central Texas,
but worth the trip to see this place.
Jim. Do I drop off a taco and Corona on the way, or FedEx it to Plano?
Thanks for the tip.
S.B.
Message 13
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ETAsAhQKoFnlqgqD5i+i17eeRql5/3g4kwIUX2SPUuxbWcxYLReo+aBlUIXyCzs=
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
....."the supplier is passing the shipping cost along to you...." True,
but I guarantee the shipping is the cheapest part of "shipping and
handling" I recently bought a small item with $8 S&H only to find
postage was just $1.25. The important thing is to do a lot of figuring
and buy all of your ply at once. Also perhaps order extra 1/4 sheet so
so. You will use it. Leon Stefan in Ks. Building his Peit from his
meager UPS wage.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
Drop it off on the way....and pick up those welding flanges....
I typically call Russ first (903.455.3113) just to make sure....
JM
----- Original Message -----
From: N321TX@wmconnect.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
Problem solved!
I'm heading to Alpha Aviation in Greenville. Long drive from Central Texas, but
worth the trip to see this place.
Jim. Do I drop off a taco and Corona on the way, or FedEx it to Plano?
Thanks for the tip.
S.B.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
<Jim. Do I drop off a taco and Corona on the way, or FedEx it to Plano?>
I dunno about that.... have you checked what shipping for a taco and a beer bottle
would cost?? ;)
----- Original Message -----
From: N321TX@wmconnect.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING
Problem solved!
I'm heading to Alpha Aviation in Greenville. Long drive from Central Texas, but
worth the trip to see this place.
Jim. Do I drop off a taco and Corona on the way, or FedEx it to Plano?
Thanks for the tip.
S.B.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING |
I guess an appology is due to AS&S. My mindset on the shipping issue was
probably from my buying things on Ebay where some (not all) vendors charge $30
to
send something and when it arrives in the mail, the postage was $6.
I'm off to Alpha Aviation Supply Company in Greenville, TX next week for my
plywood needs.
AS&S had the best price for the actual purchase of the plywood I am in need
of, BTW.
S.B.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Upstate NY / Cold Conditions |
Hey folks,
Anyone on the list building a Piet in Upstate NY? I just moved to
Croghan (near Watertown) and am setting up shop to start building very
soon. I'd love to meet with / converse with local builders if possible.
On another note; my detached rough lumber 3.5 car garage is not
insulated and as you can imagine it gets VERY cold in there. I kicked
the snow off my boots inside the threshold of the door on the day I
moved in and the same clumps of snow are right were I left them 2 weeks
later. What are some ways I can deal with the cold and still make
progress on the structure? I thought of building a thermostatically
controlled heat box made of Styrofoam insulation to set over the work
table and whatever part I'm working on while it cures. Not difficult to
build and I imagine much easier than trying to heat the entire space.
How long would the glue joints need to be maintained in the room temp
range before they can be allowed to be returned to the sub-zero temps?
Is it a bad Idea to let finished parts of the structure be exposed to
such temps? FYI right now my plans are to use either T-88 or the West
system. Is there a better glue for these cold conditions? Thanks in
advance!
Jake Crause
www.homebuiltairplanes.com
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