---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/25/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:59 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING (W Meier) 2. 07:03 AM - Excellent Pietenpol article.... (Jim Markle) 3. 07:09 AM - Re: Excellent Pietenpol article.... (Jim Markle) 4. 08:17 AM - Re: Testing a rib (Hodgson, Mark O) 5. 08:50 AM - Re: Testing a rib (Textor, Jack) 6. 11:40 AM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Dick Navratil) 7. 12:19 PM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Michael D Cuy) 8. 01:47 PM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Borodent@aol.com) 9. 03:07 PM - Re: Testing a rib (Galen Hutcheson) 10. 05:40 PM - Re: Plans ordering trouble (Jimmy Courtney) 11. 06:33 PM - cabane struts (Jeff Hill) 12. 06:48 PM - another Pietenpol article (Ken Anderson) 13. 06:58 PM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Jake Crause) 14. 09:12 PM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions () 15. 10:51 PM - Re: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions (Galen Hutcheson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:58 AM PST US s=test1; d=earthlink.net; b=CMwP9oUsSflttw1MdAV3YemgMLx+xif4mqYoK/1ZoEZVCdowRWVNzk7x7W2nC8v2; From: W Meier Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: W Meier Regarding the shipping of plywood, I have run into many problems with shipping. I have shipped plywood with fedex, airborne, ups and a number of truck lines. anywhere from a few sheets of 1/8" to 20,000 lbs. When shipping by truck, you are paying for the labor at the dock( to a point) . It doesn't seem to matter much whether you ship 20 to 200 lbs, the price doesn't change all that much. When shipping full size sheets via the overnight operations, my loss ratio was as high as 50 % The problem there was how to package light weight ( they DO charge by the pound) to prevent bending the panel in half. Lately, UPS has been accepting larger packages...I just shipped a sheet of 3/4" teak ply that I cut in half lengthwise so the package was 24"x 96" x 3" thick. The cost of shipping was $105 including insurance. It was classified as an oversize 3 package and was charged at a 90 lb rate, even though it only weighed 70lb. If anyone on the Piet list needs plywood shipped, let me know via PM or phone, not over the list. I will cut panels to rough size for you to save on shipping. Cheers Wayne Midwest Marine Plywood 651-882-9704 >Time: 06:28:45 PM PST US >From: N321TX@wmconnect.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aircraft Spruce & Specialty $HIPPING > >I guess an appology is due to AS&S. My mindset on the shipping issue was >probably from my buying things on Ebay where some (not all) vendors charge $30 >to >send something and when it arrives in the mail, the postage was $6. > >I'm off to Alpha Aviation Supply Company in Greenville, TX next week for my >plywood needs. > >AS&S had the best price for the actual purchase of the plywood I am in need >of, BTW. > >S.B. > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:23 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Excellent Pietenpol article.... on eBay.... This is about 10 pages of some of the best Pietenpol info available..... It's an article by Joe Christy called: "The Pasture Pilot's Pride and Joy" I got a copy of it about a year ago or I wouldn't be tellin' you guys about it!!! :-) It's great. Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:42 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Excellent Pietenpol article.... Ok, the link fails (why do I bother????) If you're interested, go to eBay and look up item #6948497168 Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:03 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Excellent Pietenpol article.... on eBay.... This is about 10 pages of some of the best Pietenpol info available..... It's an article by Joe Christy called: "The Pasture Pilot's Pride and Joy" I got a copy of it about a year ago or I wouldn't be tellin' you guys about it!!! :-) It's great. Jim Markle Plano, TX 214.505.6101 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Testing a rib From: "Hodgson, Mark O" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" Norm, I recently finished a set of ribs, using T-88, and didn't encounter your problem. I measured the T-88 using two children's medicine-measuring syringes I got at CVS. Did the last because I had had one bad curing experience using the "equal length beads on the paper plate" method, in which it took about a week rather than 24 hours for the tackiness in one rib to go away. My sequence was a) install and glue ribs and braces in the jig, b) glue gussets on one side, c) staple gussets in place, d) pull out assembly, inspect for squeeze-out on all joints, turn jig upside down and place rib on back of jig and glue gussets to other side, e) staple gussets on other side, f) finish by inspecting for squeeze-out and labelling the date on the rib and the test pieces. I applied glue to both surfaces always, because early on it looked like that seemed to ensure good squeeze-out. At first I placed a thin plastic strip between the prongs of the staple when stapling, then pulled it out after driving the staple; theory being that that would allow for more T-88 in the joint. However, I found that that seemed to actually interfere with good squeeze-out, so I quit doing it, used more pressure on the standard 1/4" staples, and still had satisfactory breaking results with all of the test joints (one for each little batch of glue which amounts to 2 per regular rib, 3 on end ribs). HAVING SAID THAT, no one but me has inspected the ribs, which haven't been assembled into a wing, which has never flown. Take it for what it's worth. It's just that Resorcinol seems like a huge pain in the butt, kind of like using nails rather than staples, and the staples seemed to hold the rib together even during the 30 to 45 minutes when they were only on one side. Mark Hodgson ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Testing a rib From: "Textor, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Textor, Jack" Sounds like a good system Norm. You do a "test" with each rib? Is that something the feds want? Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:40:43 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Jake The answer to that question has a direct relationship to the tolerance level of the wife. Winter is a great time for making wing ribs or the tail feathers. You can make the jig for either and set it up on a dining room table or a washing machine while working and prop it up in the corner when not working. Winter is also good for making controll horns and other steel parts. T-88 will cure at 50 deg. so you can work in the basement also. Also, check out the local EAA chapter, they may let you set up a work area in the chapter hangar. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jake Crause To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 12:38 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Hey folks, Anyone on the list building a Piet in Upstate NY? I just moved to Croghan (near Watertown) and am setting up shop to start building very soon. I'd love to meet with / converse with local builders if possible. On another note; my detached rough lumber 3.5 car garage is not insulated and as you can imagine it gets VERY cold in there. I kicked the snow off my boots inside the threshold of the door on the day I moved in and the same clumps of snow are right were I left them 2 weeks later. What are some ways I can deal with the cold and still make progress on the structure? I thought of building a thermostatically controlled heat box made of Styrofoam insulation to set over the work table and whatever part I'm working on while it cures. Not difficult to build and I imagine much easier than trying to heat the entire space. How long would the glue joints need to be maintained in the room temp range before they can be allowed to be returned to the sub-zero temps? Is it a bad Idea to let finished parts of the structure be exposed to such temps? FYI right now my plans are to use either T-88 or the West system. Is there a better glue for these cold conditions? Thanks in advance! Jake Crause www.homebuiltairplanes.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:40 PM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Jake-- don't know if you are near Brockport but Tom Bowdler is a nice guy (dentist by profession) who owns an 0-200 Canadian built Piet and is pretty close to finishing another. There are also TWO guys who have Ford powered Piets near there too---a father-in-law, son-in-law combination. I can't recall their names anymore but they came thru Ohio in 1998 or 99 and after we had flown a three ship for a while towards Indiana I pulled away from them and heard later that the one lost his prop and flipped in a bean field (he and his son were okay) and the father-in-law landed nearby safely. Last I heard the damaged Piet was either flying or close to flying again. Mike C. At 12:38 AM 2/25/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Hey folks, > > >Anyone on the list building a Piet in Upstate NY? I just moved to Croghan >(near Watertown) and am setting up shop to start building very soon. I d >love to meet with / converse with local builders if possible. > > >On another note; my detached rough lumber 3.5 car garage is not insulated >and as you can imagine it gets VERY cold in there. I kicked the snow off >my boots inside the threshold of the door on the day I moved in and the >same clumps of snow are right were I left them 2 weeks later. What are >some ways I can deal with the cold and still make progress on the >structure? I thought of building a thermostatically controlled heat box >made of Styrofoam insulation to set over the work table and whatever part >I m working on while it cures. Not difficult to build and I imagine much >easier than trying to heat the entire space. How long would the glue >joints need to be maintained in the room temp range before they can be >allowed to be returned to the sub-zero temps? Is it a bad Idea to let >finished parts of the structure be exposed to such temps? FYI right now >my plans are to use either T-88 or the West system. Is there a better >glue for these cold conditions? Thanks in advance! > > >Jake Crause > >www.homebuiltairplanes.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:47:13 PM PST US From: Borodent@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Borodent@aol.com Jake I am in cambridge about 1 hour n of albany, but the real expert is Ed Snyder hes maybe 1/2 hour n of albany, in Clifton Park. He has a for sale ad in the current newsletter Henry Williams ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:21 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=puuQhuZ5n9USWNQebWrQ71MiPediWY7IURPfTM4dSoyV1xWXWC4q2WRp85ghzvE3I3c1Uocd0yjO/+MczATgcKA0VnrinfORDGaxcOK9/+lvMGSBucTPFI64+OL4uY/k4vC88JNh6AxdUOGSYtmWSjF4pqOyg3y0hSizVq8eORE= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Testing a rib --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Norm, these are all good techniques, but I found that the old fashioned way was the best way for me. I simply mitered in my caps and diagonals, guled (T-88) the joints. Layed a gussett over a joint and marked around it, spread on a good thick layer of glue, nailed the gussett on with one nail (3/8", 20 guage A/C) in each diagonal and usually two in each cap. Just as soon as I had all the gussetts on, I pulled (gently) the rib out of the jig and layed it on a sheet of wax paper on the work bench and did the back gussetts the same way as I did the first side. I like the nailing, it is quick and easy and doesn't add enough weight to even be concerened about. I could build two ribs easily in an evening after work. I have had my ribs inspected by several tech inspecters and they all approved them. I even cut all my caps out of spruce I bought at the local lumber yard, just like the old days. Hope this helps. Doc - > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:59 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=TJej4Tl+uS8gp20B3qXY/YI3L7QYjQTPPmhpDSBFHVUF5iFD263qXGa8YUtnQXe1udlkYTsrF7yo0TcWs4tcQxaDjIy0+T6qYQ+S5KNpzHrCXn7i5ir1wuSM9sijnZMCM3cLsgHao83sI9G5njCmvDApAG4lYh9gYUwhaO2tL3A= ; From: Jimmy Courtney Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plans ordering trouble Dan, I bought my plans just over a year ago. Here is the public information that I had acquired and used to contact Mr. Pietenpol. I hope that this information is of use to you. Donald Pietenpol 1604 Meadow Circle S.E. Rochester, MN 55904 Home Number (507) 289-2436 Home Fax: (507) 289-1279 Happy winds!!!! Jim Courtney jbciii5656@yahoo.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:53 PM PST US From: "Jeff Hill" Subject: Pietenpol-List: cabane struts DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list --- MIME Errors --- A message with no text/plain section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using plaintext formatting. NOTE! This error can also occur when the poster of the message has a specific type of computer virus. This virus WAS NOT forwarded on to the List. The poster should be informed of the potential problem with their system as soon as possible. --- MIME Errors --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:37 PM PST US From: "Ken Anderson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: another Pietenpol article from AERO-NEWS.NET Deke Slayton and a Shiny Red Pietenpol Or How To Fly An Early Sport Plane Through The Window By ANN Correspondent Rose Dorcey It was a standing room only crowd at last Saturday's celebration of Monroe County Aviation History and the Pietenpol Air Camper at the Deke Slayton Memorial Space and Bike Museum in Sparta (WI). The museum proudly unveiled its latest acquisition, a fire-engine red Pietenpol Air Camper built from 1932 plans and donated by Chicago's Don Campbell. Last June, Campbell visited Sparta, the home of Astronaut Donald K. "Deke" Slayton. While touring the museum, he casually mentioned to Museum Director Kay Bender that he owns two Pietenpol's similar to a model he saw hanging there. Always on the lookout for museum assets, Bender half-jokingly said to Campbell, "If you have two, you can give one to the museum." Campbell left without giving a commitment, but in the weeks that followed, he became aware of the many educational programs the museum offers to both students and adults, and he convinced himself that donating an aircraft to the museum was the right thing to do. Campbell contacted Bender and the two came up with an ambitious plan to have the airplane installed by the end of the year. Bender spoke with Jim Reisinger of the Monroe County Aviators, who enthusiastically agreed to coordinate the effort to bring the Pietenpol from the Brodhead (WI) airport to Sparta. After consulting with engineers to verify that the century-old building could support the 600-pound aircraft, a semi-truck was secured, along with a couple of dozen of able-bodied volunteers. The never-flown Pietenpol was partially disassembled and placed on a truck bound for Sparta. On a sunny, but more important, calm day in November, the Pietenpol arrived at 200 West Main Street. Sparta Mayor John Gomez waited in a crane to lift the 30-foot wing to the second floor window of the museum. Perched by the window, about a dozen members of the Monroe County Aviators guided the wing through the narrow opening. Meanwhile, another dozen or so volunteers brought the fuselage up a winding staircase, around corners, and through the museum's constricted foyer. Mission accomplished; time to reassemble the airplane. The wing and landing gear were reattached, as was the faux radiator, a measure used to lighten the load of the plane. At the February 19 celebration, Master of Ceremonies Jim Reisinger introduced a host of well-wishers including Sparta Mayor Gomez and a representative from the neighboring City of Tomah, Chuck Pollard; along with Dennis Hubbard of the Monroe County Supervisors. Keynote Speaker Tom Thomas (above), Chief, Aviation Management and Education Section of the Wisconsin Department of Transportation's Bureau of Aeronautics, said the accomplishment was one that "celebrates fantastic teamwork while preserving an important piece of aviation history." The efforts of the Monroe County Aviators, Kay Bender and museum staff and a host of volunteers and those who gave monetary contributions were heralded by nearly 150 museum guests. The Pietenpol is a showpiece among the museum's diverse displays. The museum shows a progression of transportation from the first bicycles, to the Wright Brother's Bicycle Shop; to aviation in Monroe County and into outer space with Monroe County's own Mercury 7 Astronaut. The role of the Monroe County Aviators is to preserve the rich aviation history of the county and to encourage and introduce youth to the opportunities open to them in the field of aviation. FMI: www.dekeslayton.com do not archive Ken Anderson piet4ken@mindspring.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:19 PM PST US From: "Jake Crause" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Dick: Thanks for the reply. I have given some thought to building the ribs in the house because it would be very convenient to do so. However, the reason I'm holding off on building the ribs is kind of a strange one. I know that being an Army Helicopter Pilot I will be deployed to the Middle East very soon. Probably within a year or so. Because of this I have been trying to come up with ways to maintain progress on the aircraft even though I'll be out of the country. One way to do that will be to become the first Pietenpol builder (I assume) to finish all of the wing ribs and metal fittings for the aircraft while deployed to a war zone. I'll definitely spend some money in shipping the completed ribs back, but it would give me something to enjoy and distress with. Don't laugh, having deployed numerous times, I really think it can be done :D. Mike: Brockport is quite a hike but not an unrealistic day trip. Thanks for the tip. **Mr. Bowdler, are you on the list?** Henry: Cambridge is a bit of hike as well but, if you don't mind, I'd love to swing over and say hello. How far along are you? Does anyone know the affects of storing completed parts in very cold temps will have on the integrity of the wood and glue? Will the moisture freeze and damage the fibers somehow? Thanks. Jake ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:53 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Jake, Wooden airplanes are stored in unheated hangars everywhere. I've never heard of a problem. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis (my hangar is unheated.....) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jake Crause To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions Does anyone know the affects of storing completed parts in very cold temps will have on the integrity of the wood and glue? Will the moisture freeze and damage the fibers somehow? Thanks. Jake ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:22 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=wXnPB96FKFxgtjL8P4pbdfyeB5v9NezBNYU8iY6waex75iGDoyv/aPiyIrYW/VMceOvNoSBUYBKy3DOuproYTWubYMOMNLTa1+wUwlah2SyS8nzRGg+2mR4YRNJVzgotuPv8V5urCrgTwNW4gWmNLmTmtx4OTBZtfBMjIdpP+B4= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold Conditions --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Jake, Wooden airplanes were flying to the north and south poles during the late 20's and 30's and, other than freeze their pilots and passengers, held up very well. Sometimes the engines were a little cranky though. Wood is one of the best materials to build airplanes out of. It is durable, strong for it's weight and doesn't suffer from fatigue like metal does. You will find a way to work on your plane in spite of the cold and some have fun. Doc (an "Old, Bold pilot...who is still alive :) --- gcardinal@mn.rr.com wrote: > Jake, > Wooden airplanes are stored in unheated hangars > everywhere. > I've never heard of a problem. > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis (my hangar is unheated.....) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jake Crause > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 9:57 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Upstate NY / Cold > Conditions > > Does anyone know the affects of storing > completed parts in very cold temps will have on the > integrity of the wood and glue? Will the moisture > freeze and damage the fibers somehow? Thanks. > > > > Jake > __________________________________ http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/