---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/03/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:01 AM - Re: Glue question (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 2. 06:16 AM - big day in Kansas (Michael D Cuy) 3. 06:19 AM - Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity (N321TX@wmconnect.com) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: big day in Kansas (Isablcorky@aol.com) 5. 06:46 AM - Glue (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 6. 07:25 AM - flotation devices (Michael D Cuy) 7. 07:26 AM - flotation devices (Michael D Cuy) 8. 08:01 AM - Re: Glue question (Hodgson, Mark O) 9. 12:10 PM - Builder Feedback Requested for Kitplanes Magazine (Alternative Engines) (Cory Emberson) 10. 01:54 PM - Re: Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity (gbowen@ptialaska.net) 11. 02:54 PM - Installing elevator control horns (John and Phyllis Smoyer) 12. 04:05 PM - Re: Installing elevator control horns (DJ Vegh) 13. 07:01 PM - I've finally started building something that will fly (no more mock-ups for me). (Ben Charvet) 14. 09:08 PM - Re: Installing elevator control horns (Rcaprd@aol.com) 15. 09:12 PM - Re: Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity (Rcaprd@aol.com) 16. 09:14 PM - Re: big day in Kansas (Rcaprd@aol.com) 17. 09:20 PM - Re: flotation devices (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:48 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glue question I have found that small plastic squeeze bottles (4 to 8 oz?) work very well. The kind I use have a snap-on cap that is attached to the bottle so you can't lose it. I invested in a small digital scale (iBal 201) and mix the West System epoxy by weight. These scales cost about $100, are used by ammo reloaders, and weigh to .01 gram. They have a capacity of 200 grams. I typically only use 5 to 10 grams. Just put in the resin, get the weight, multiply by 1.2, and add hardener up to that value. Its very accurate and repeatable for small amounts. (I can't help it if I'm an engineer!) BTW epoxy has a very long shelf life. Especially if you keep it sealed in the can. By using the squeeze bottles, you don't have to open the can very often. Dan Hopper Walton, IN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:55 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: big day in Kansas --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Hey Chuck G.........looks like Steve Fossett is on his way home in the Global Flyer to Salina, Kansas today. In doing some calculations here at work I figured that at 4.5 gph I could fly for about 670 hours on what he was carrying in fuel in that thing ! (he took off with 2,700 gallons of jet fuel on board) Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:51 AM PST US From: N321TX@wmconnect.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity I've successfully dissipated and prevented static electricity in photographic labs for many years by mixing Downey Fabric Softener to water at a 50/50 mix, and then spraying carpeted areas in and around the lab. Here in the Southwest, on a cold-dry winter day, we can darned near arc weld with static after walking around on a dry surface and many rolls of films have been ruined when spooling film out of cassette in a darkroom. The static can bee seen on the film after development. The Downey/water method nearly eliminates the ionic charge, thus the reason your socks don't cling after coming out of the dryer when treated with Downey. (Ask any woman who wears nylon stockings... Downey is a must on man-made textiles.) When fueling my Cherokee in the boondocks, I've also used my "formula" for spraying down the surface of the wings, gas caps, my shoes and the area where I stand when transferring the gas, prior to fueling an airplane with plastic cans. (The cans are sprayed before fueling as well and allowed a minute or so to dry... The back of the vehicle is also sprayed before loading a plastic can! Try gassing an airplane at the landing strip in/at Wall Drug Store in South Dakota... ain't gonna happen unless you go into town for mogas. Also, Custer's Last Stand! No gas at the field, but a convenience store 1 mile away... Sorry, but sometimes remote fueling is an evil necessity for us who live and fly off of fields not having a fuel source, such as a ranch or in places in the Dakotas That's why I always carried my small spray bottle of Downy/Water in my airplane. I'm more concerned about fiberglass gas tanks in my Pietenpol though. Fiberglass makes for a great attractant for static electricity! I wonder if there is an additional way to enhance safety when adding gas to a wooden airplane having fiberglass tanks? I'm about to build my fiberglass gas tank and I thought of adding a small copper wire to the aluminum filler neck, then to the weldable flange, running the wire down to a low spot on the fuselage where I could connect to a ground source (probably a small copper shaft driven into the ground...) Obviously it's wise to AVOID using plastic cans for fueling an airplane, but sometimes we don't have a choice. Does anybody have any information about grounding tips and way to avoid static when fueling a wooden airplane having a fiberglass tank in the boondocks? Thanks, Sterling Brooks Knot-2-Shabby Airport & Texas Longhorn Cattle Ranch ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:16 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: big day in Kansas Mike, Calculating like that tells me you might be considering buying some ping pong balls and flying left wing position on the proposed Pan American Tropical Pietenpol Goodwill Banana Tour (PATPGBT). Corky in Louisiana saving various sizes of milk jugs Please do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:28 AM PST US ETAtAhUAjPVt5mavW3a1SNmvq9yqRScuilUCFAevm1ZVG2DcNX/WNavqBIu7OX5a From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glue --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) If you buy glue in large containers, the Rubbermaid salad dressing squeeze bottles are excellent for dispensing small to large amounts of rozen and hardener. If you start with both containers filled to the same exact amount, you can observe how equal your batches are mixed if the remaining amount stays equal as you use the stuff up. Chuck, since you haven't been on the list since last Friday, I was worried that BTK was you! Leon S Do not archive.. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:46 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: flotation devices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Corky-- Gosh, I hadn't heard about the Panama Goodwill tour. Keep me posted. With my new drop tank and tip tanks I can carry 40 gallons which give me about a 12 hour endurance time. About 800 air miles. I was thinking Houston to Tampa direct, non-stop, un-refueled. Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:52 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: flotation devices --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Corky-- that is 40 gallons plus my 17 behind the firewall. I'm trying to talk Jim Sury into the same mods so he can come with me. Mike C. do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Glue question From: "Hodgson, Mark O" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Hodgson, Mark O" I mixed on paper plates, but I've been collecting those polyethylene lids that they use to cover oatmeal and other paper-cylinder containers and I'm going to switch to them for the rest of the plane if they work better, which I think they should. I would recommend some kind of syringe for measuring (used plastic children's medicine type, one for hardener and one for resin, which you can get at a Wal-Mart-type place); with the equal-length-bead method you have to be careful that the beads are exactly equal widths and I for one had a problem with that; tongue-depressors or popsicle-sticks can be gotten at hobby shops, and sand them down to get a pointed/straight edge for applying glue; Walt's rip-with-the-teeth method sounds good too, with no sawdust residue either. One mild caution: T-88 adheres a little bit to vinyl--I covered my jig base with a clear vinyl sheet and some residue built up over time at the sites with the heaviest glue, which needed a little extra cleaning work when I removed the rib from the jig each time. Mark Hodgson ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:19 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Builder Feedback Requested for Kitplanes Magazine (Alternative Engines) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Hello everyone, I've subscribed (quietly) to this list for a little more than a year, and would like to hear from you if you're a builder who has successfully installed and flown an alternative engine in your plane. I'm writing a builder's roundup for Kitplanes magazine, and am looking for an installation that's flown for a minimum of 150 hours, and is currently flying. For the builders that we profile, the magazine will also be able to pay you $100 for the write-up. We would also need at least 2-3 good photos, including a close-up of the engine and an overall shot of the aircraft. Additional photos would be great, and all photos will be returned. If you have digital photos, it is very important that they be high-resolution, at least 300 dpi. I have a list of specific areas to address if you'd like to participate, but we can handle that off-line. Please feel free to contact me off-line at: cory @ lightspeededit.com (remove the spaces - my anti-spam protection) or reply offline to my list email address. I have a rather short deadline, so if you're able to contact me as soon as you're able, I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you so much! best, Cory Emberson ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:34 PM PST US From: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "gbowen@ptialaska.net" Fiberglass/epoxy tanks have been used for over 30 yrs in Rutan type planes. All the fuelers want to attach the grounding strap to any metal part of the composite landing gear, (ain't gonna do a thing). So we canardians/aka Pieties have exchanged 1000's of emails via the user group about how to ground during fueling. The original plans for canard types calls for a metal (like the kind you ground the engine with) woven strap, attached to the fuel cap, dangled down into the fuel. You attach the ground wire from the fueling station to it. It kinda sloshes around with the fuel while you're in flight. Some builders have build into their laminates a ground wire inside the tank surface that is in contact with the fuel, and also in contact witht he filler ring/ and cap. I have a piece of Al cut about 3 in. on a side of triangle, connected to the fuel cap, with twisted wire. This keeps contact with the fuel when the metal fuel nozzle keeps contact with the filler ring on top of the tank. It is never recommended you fuel a composite plane with plastic gas cans, but we've all done it. It's recommended that you keep the fuel nozzle in contact with the fuel in the tank. Incidentally, I've been around composite planes since Rutan flew his first VariEze with our RAF epoxy system developed at Rezolin Chemical, I've never heard of a composite plane catching fire during fueling due to sparks, but coulda happened. Gordon Bowen ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:19 PM PST US From: "John and Phyllis Smoyer" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Installing elevator control horns The horns I'm talking about mount on the main and center beams of the elevators. The plans seem to show the horn aligned parallel to the airplane center line. However, because the horns are mounted some distance outboard of the airplane center line, the control cables will connect to the horn at an angle of something like (I'm guessing) 20 degrees or so. That means that the control force for the elevator will exert a side load/bending moment on the horn, which will be transferred into the bolts that hold the horn onto the elevator beams. Is this a problem? Should I install the control horns at an angle, so that there would be no side load? How have other builders installed this horn? For sure, aligning the horns to eliminate the side load would turn them into the airstream and create more drag than if the horn were aligned straight. Thanks for your help. John Smoyer ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:33 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Installing elevator control horns I ran my horns at the same angle as the cables coming to them. I did not want to be putting them in a side bending load. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Installing elevator control horns The horns I'm talking about mount on the main and center beams of the elevators. The plans seem to show the horn aligned parallel to the airplane center line. However, because the horns are mounted some distance outboard of the airplane center line, the control cables will connect to the horn at an angle of something like (I'm guessing) 20 degrees or so. That means that the control force for the elevator will exert a side load/bending moment on the horn, which will be transferred into the bolts that hold the horn onto the elevator beams. Is this a problem? Should I install the control horns at an angle, so that there would be no side load? How have other builders installed this horn? For sure, aligning the horns to eliminate the side load would turn them into the airstream and create more drag than if the horn were aligned straight. Thanks for your help. John Smoyer ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:01 PM PST US From: "Ben Charvet" Subject: Pietenpol-List: I've finally started building something that will fly (no more mock-ups for me). Hi all, I've been lurking in the background on this list for a few months now while studying my plans, practicing my woodworking skills and getting my shop ready. Its a long story but I built an entire fuselage mock-up with some lumber yard douglas fir that I bought before I really knew what the recommendations were as far as grain slope, etc. It didn't take all that long and I learned a lot of things I'll do differently when I get the right materials. I just started last weekend making wing ribs with wood (douglas fir) that meets my expectations and I'm building a rib nearly every day. After cutting all the parts out in advance I can now glue and nail one up in about an hour. I've posted my progress so far at mykitplanes at the following link. I've posted a few pictures there as well. I've learned a lot just lurking in the background and from searching the archives. There are three other Piets under construction within 40 miles of me so I have lots of local sources of information too. Here is my link http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/buildLogReport.cfm?PlaneID481&FNameBen&LNameCharvet&PlaneNameAir%20Camper Ben ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:01 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Installing elevator control horns In a message dated 3/3/2005 4:55:10 PM Central Standard Time, jpsmoyer@verizon.net writes: Should I install the control horns at an angle, so that there would be no side load? How have other builders installed this horn? John, The horns should be installed at an angle, so there is no side load. Chuck G. temps in the mid 60's, and a SSW winds !! Time to Kick the Tires, Twang the Wires, and Light the Fire !! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:21 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Safety? Fiberglass gas tanks & Static Electricity I'm carefully listening to this one... I always wear safety glasses when re-fueling, and I always assume some static discharge is going to occur, so I touch everything to ground, whenever possible. Gives me the Hiebie Jiebies every time !! Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:28 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: big day in Kansas In a message dated 3/3/2005 8:17:34 AM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes: Hey Chuck G.........looks like Steve Fossett is on his way home in the Global Flyer to Salina, Kansas today. In doing some calculations here at work I figured that at 4.5 gph I could fly for about 670 hours on what he was carrying in fuel in that thing ! (he took off with 2,700 gallons of jet fuel on board) Mike C. do not archive I think they said that 85% of his take off weight was FUEL !! Chuck G. Well, you know what they say... "The only time you have too much fuel onboard, is when you are ON FIRE !! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:33 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: flotation devices In a message dated 3/3/2005 9:26:36 AM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes: With my new drop tank and tip tanks I can carry 40 gallons which give me about a 12 hour endurance time. About 800 air miles. I was thinking Houston to Tampa direct, non-stop, un-refueled. Mike, If you pull that one off, you will certainly win the 'Iron Butt' award !! Chuck G. I've done one 4hr leg, and three times I've done 3 1/2hr legs. After landing, I had to sit there a few moments to allow all my bones to hook back up !!