---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/14/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - painting metal parts (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 05:57 AM - Re: painting metal parts (Jack Phillips) 3. 06:11 AM - Re: Different Piets (Rick Holland) 4. 07:50 AM - Re: painting metal parts (Sterling) 5. 07:54 AM - Support your EAA Washington lobbyists (Rick Holland) 6. 09:41 AM - Glue and Sanding (Ron Franck) 7. 10:49 AM - sanding glue joints (Oscar Zuniga) 8. 12:13 PM - LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (DJ Vegh) 9. 04:14 PM - Re: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (Mark Blackwell) 10. 04:23 PM - Re: painting metal parts (hjarrett) 11. 04:41 PM - Re: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (TomTravis@aol.com) 12. 05:11 PM - Re: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (DJ Vegh) 13. 05:30 PM - Re: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (Sterling) 14. 06:36 PM - Re: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:38 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Group; I've had problems painting metal parts, both steel and aluminum. Some parts will take the paint perfectly, but other times it's as if there is something on the metal that repels the paint and I get little voids and imperfections. Cleaning with hot soapy water, MEK, alcohol, or degreaser don't seem to make any difference... there are little areas that just won't take the paint. Is this maybe some silicone from a cleaning rag, or something in the pores of the metal? Any ideas? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:47 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Phillips" Oscar, I had good results using the PolyFiber products. The procedures are different depending on the metal. For steel: a. Beadblast the parts to get all welding scale and any rust off. even clean metal can benefit from beadblasting as it gives a little more "tooth" for the primer b. Clean with PloyFiber's Met-L-Sol c. Prime with PolyFiber's Epoxy Primer. I find the green works better than the white. Once cured, this stuff is bulletproof d. Paint with whatever top coat you want. If you use their Aerothane polyurethane, you will find it produces an extremtly hard, durable finish For aluminum: a. Clean the parts with PolyFiber's Alkaline Cleaner b. Etch with PolyFiber's Phosphoric Acid etch c. Apply an Alodine coating. I didn't use PolyFiber's coating because their's is a clear alodine and I prefer the gold alodine so you can see where you have missed. d. Epoxy Prime as above. The acid etch and alodine provides a finely toothed surface and the primer just about jumps on the aluminum. e. Top Coat as above. Once the primer is on, you can use any paint you wish PolyFiber's products are very expensive (that epoxy primer is about $65 for a quart kit, which makes about 1-1/2 qts), but this is the part of your project that will really show. If you did a world class job on the woodwork and then the paintjob looks like crap, the whole airplane will look like crap. Jack Finally finished with structural repairs on NX899JP and starting to do fabric work. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Group; I've had problems painting metal parts, both steel and aluminum. Some parts will take the paint perfectly, but other times it's as if there is something on the metal that repels the paint and I get little voids and imperfections. Cleaning with hot soapy water, MEK, alcohol, or degreaser don't seem to make any difference... there are little areas that just won't take the paint. Is this maybe some silicone from a cleaning rag, or something in the pores of the metal? Any ideas? Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:29 AM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Different Piets --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rick Holland Interesting Doc, a Piet biplane. I looked at the Aerial biplane plans (and I assume you have also) but heard nothing but bad things about it. I originally purchased FlyBaby plans and the FlyBaby biplane supplemental plans which included a modified set of wing plans (both wings) that bolted to the original fuselage with very little modifications. Peter Bower claimed you could interchange the wings to go from biplane to monoplane any time you wanted. I originally wanted to build a biplane but couldn't find anything else to beat the price/builder support/track record of the Piet. From what I have heard the problem with the Aerial Piet biplane was too much wing area because it kept the original wing and added a lower wing of about the same size. The FlyBaby biplane used two different smaller wings which were swept back like a Pitts, looks really good. Sorry if you know all of this already, I think it would be incredible if some industrious person (like yourself) came up with a good biplane Piet design which could be retro-fitted to existing Piets (like the FlyBaby biplane). The best of both worlds. The FlyBaby plans also included additions for adding floats. I know at least one person has successfully added floats to their Piet, make those plans available as a supplement also and you have a seriously versatile design. I wish you the best of luck. On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:19:24 -0800 (PST), Galen Hutcheson wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > > Mark, many (including myself) have modified the width > of the fuse to make the cockpit more user friendly. I > am building a biplane version (my own design) using > the Piet fuse and ribs. The great thing about the > Piet is it's versitility. You should find many > discussions on this topic via the search engine. The > Piet is a great plane in it's own right, but it is > easy to use it as a spring board for other designs. > > Doc -- Rick Holland ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:20 AM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" Oscar: When I built my Avid Flyer, I had to paint many aluminum and 4130 parts, not to mention fiberglass. I used a 2 part epoxy primer. Everything went great. I'd try the two part epoxy and stay away from Krylon or other primers in a can. One other problem, you have fairly high humidity in your area. You might need to install a moisture guard on your airline. Here at Knot-2-Shabby we have humidity too but not as bad as San Antonio. Here is a trick I learned from an old-timer... I use a filter out of the compressor at 10 feet, then I go out 25 feet, and installed a moisture guard I bought as Sears. Then I run another 25 feet from the mositure guard to my gun (HLVP) and it helped the moisture problem. (Don't ask me why the 25 feet-moisture guard-25 feet thing works, I learned this trick from the paint shop here when I was spraying a custom pickup I built in the 80s... Didn't have this problema in El Paso, since there is no humidity there, but in Central Texas, wow. Are you draining the sump daily on your compressor? (A great safety measure, not to mention a way to keep excess water out oif the line.) Also, I almost always add a fish-eye additive to my paint (in addition to a hardener... in the color coat, not the primer) and the fish-eye additive is VERY GOOD for the problem you described. I've never tried these additives in anything other than enamels by the way. Last, have you used any air tools needing oil? You might have a contaminated oil line. PLATA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Group; > > I've had problems painting metal parts, both steel and aluminum. Some parts > will take the paint perfectly, but other times it's as if there is something > on the metal that repels the paint and I get little voids and imperfections. > Cleaning with hot soapy water, MEK, alcohol, or degreaser don't seem to > make any difference... there are little areas that just won't take the > paint. > > Is this maybe some silicone from a cleaning rag, or something in the pores > of the metal? Any ideas? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:38 AM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Pietenpol-List: Support your EAA Washington lobbyists --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Rick Holland Here we go again. New report being talked about on the national news this morning concerning how lax general aviation security is, especially at small airports. An interviewed Washington Post reported was saying that general aviation security should be as strict as commercial airline security. Soon we may have to have wire explosive detectors into our ignitions to be legal that disables the engine when something is detected. Sorry for the off topic post. do not archive -- Rick Holland ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:44 AM PST US From: Ron Franck Subject: Pietenpol-List: Glue and Sanding --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ron Franck Perhaps I missed it, but if not it may be worth mentioning. Whenever I sand wood, especially plywood I go over the areas to be joined first with the shop vac, then with either a tack cloth or the sticky side of duct tape. The purpose being to remove any wood dust from the area of the glue joint. This is standard practice whenever I assemble wood in my shop. Disclaimer: I'm not a expert and I'm not suggesting the joint is any stronger. I just do it for my own piece of mind. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:44 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: sanding glue joints --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Jack wrote- >T-88 can stand some (small) gap, but don't think it will let you get away >with sloppy construction. In fact, T-88 requires a small gap. If you over-clamp a joint made with T-88 you'll squeeze out too much of the glue and will not get a good joint. One of the big plusses of working with T-88 is that it is much more forgiving than resorcinol or some of the other glues. Joints should be nice, but even if you have slight discrepancies the T-88 will fill the gap and give you good strength. Although I haven't tried it myself, it is said that wood joints can be made with T-88 on wood that is moist (such as from steaming, to bend capstrips). It has also been said, and my experience bears it out, that T-88 will soften at elevated temperatures. Icarus would have had a problem with T-88, although we know that Piets would take an eternity to climb close enough to the sun to make a difference ;o) Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:25 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" My uncle is currently a Student Pilot with about 12 hours. He wants to stop training for a Private Pilot certificate, buy a LSA and get a Sport Pilot certificate. We were talking and I told him that I am seriously looking into getting my Sport Pilot Instructors certificate. If I did I'd teach him in his aircraft.... BUT, I'm wondering.... if he gets a taildragger (like a Kolb or Kitfox, etc.) will he need a tailwheel endorsement?? and if so, would I (being a Sport Pilot Instructor) be able to endorse him for tailwheel flight in his airplane? I'll give 1 minute of free advice (estimated value $.02) to anyone who can answer my question ;) DJ www.imagedv.com/aircamper N74DV ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:35 PM PST US From: Mark Blackwell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Blackwell DJ Just a piece of advice. Help him. Help him pick a CFI. Encourage him. Fly with him. Answer his questions, but do not take the responsibility of teaching him. Relatives are just too close for an instructor to do their job properly. More often than not a CFI that is not objective is either way too tough to be fair or too easy for the students on good no matter how hard they try to be completely fair. It can cause very hard feelings that can easily last. DJ Vegh wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > >My uncle is currently a Student Pilot with about 12 hours. > >He wants to stop training for a Private Pilot certificate, buy a LSA and >get a Sport Pilot certificate. We were talking and I told him that I am >seriously looking into getting my Sport Pilot Instructors certificate. If I >did I'd teach him in his aircraft.... BUT, > >I'm wondering.... if he gets a taildragger (like a Kolb or Kitfox, etc.) >will he need a tailwheel endorsement?? and if so, would I (being a Sport >Pilot Instructor) be able to endorse him for tailwheel flight in his >airplane? > >I'll give 1 minute of free advice (estimated value $.02) to anyone who can >answer my question ;) > >DJ >www.imagedv.com/aircamper >N74DV > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:11 PM PST US From: "hjarrett" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "hjarrett" Possible sources 1) Oil from your compressor (rings and cylinder bore getting worn) 2) Are you using paper towels? Lots of brands are contaminated with Si. 3) Finger prints. You wouldn't believe how much contaminant is on your fingers! 4) Contaminated shop rags Possible solutions 1) Eliminate the above 2) Wipe with Prep Sol (Get it at a GOOD paint store. It's what they use in auto paint shops) 3) Don't throw rocks at this one. I know it sounds totally STUPID but use the paint you will be using on the part to clean the surface. I found this out by accident after what you described happened several times in a row and the finish was doing it AGAIN! I was so frustrated I literally wiped the wet paint off with a clean rag and just blasted it with another coat. (Like I said, I was really mad). The residual paint from the wiping was wetted out by the new paint and leveled into a beautiful finish. I have pulled this little trick several times since then when I couldn't get the surface clean by any normal method and darned if it didn't work every time. I don't know why it works and I sure don't let anybody see me do it but it has worked. It's just embarrassing to admit I have done it. If it works for you let me know. Heck let me know either way. It has yet to fail me when nothing else works. Hank J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: painting metal parts > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > Group; > > I've had problems painting metal parts, both steel and aluminum. Some parts > will take the paint perfectly, but other times it's as if there is something > on the metal that repels the paint and I get little voids and imperfections. > Cleaning with hot soapy water, MEK, alcohol, or degreaser don't seem to > make any difference... there are little areas that just won't take the > paint. > > Is this maybe some silicone from a cleaning rag, or something in the pores > of the metal? Any ideas? > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:47 PM PST US From: TomTravis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements In a message dated 3/14/2005 6:15:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerialphotos@dp.net writes: Relatives are just too close for an instructor to do their job properly. Sometimes that can be true but not always. I taught my daughter to fly and it's something we've enjoyed together for years. We still get on pretty well even though she's a professional pilot and I'm her chief pilot. I must admit when we went through recurrent training last week and her V1 cuts were better than mine it was hard to take. It all depends on your relationship with your uncle. If neither of you have your egos wrapped up in it you can have lots of good safe fun. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:10 PM PST US From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" typically I can see that.... but my dad was my CFI and all went well. We're a close family and we're good with stuff like this. DJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Blackwell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Blackwell > > DJ Just a piece of advice. Help him. Help him pick a CFI. Encourage > him. Fly with him. Answer his questions, but do not take the > responsibility of teaching him. Relatives are just too close for an > instructor to do their job properly. More often than not a CFI that is > not objective is either way too tough to be fair or too easy for the > students on good no matter how hard they try to be completely fair. It > can cause very hard feelings that can easily last. > DJ Vegh wrote: > >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" >> >>My uncle is currently a Student Pilot with about 12 hours. >> >>He wants to stop training for a Private Pilot certificate, buy a LSA and >>get a Sport Pilot certificate. We were talking and I told him that I am >>seriously looking into getting my Sport Pilot Instructors certificate. If >>I >>did I'd teach him in his aircraft.... BUT, >> >>I'm wondering.... if he gets a taildragger (like a Kolb or Kitfox, etc.) >>will he need a tailwheel endorsement?? and if so, would I (being a Sport >>Pilot Instructor) be able to endorse him for tailwheel flight in his >>airplane? >> >>I'll give 1 minute of free advice (estimated value $.02) to anyone who can >>answer my question ;) >> >>DJ >>www.imagedv.com/aircamper >>N74DV >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:29 PM PST US From: "Sterling" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Sterling" My old man taught me when I was 14 (39 years ago) and I'm still learning tricks from pop! And I don't even dread having my 85 year old father teaching me in an open cockpit airplane (when this Piet project is ready :) At the rate I'm going, he'll be 86 before this puppy flys. ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJ Vegh" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > > typically I can see that.... but my dad was my CFI and all went well. > We're a close family and we're good with stuff like this. > > DJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Blackwell" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 5:14 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Blackwell > > > > DJ Just a piece of advice. Help him. Help him pick a CFI. Encourage > > him. Fly with him. Answer his questions, but do not take the > > responsibility of teaching him. Relatives are just too close for an > > instructor to do their job properly. More often than not a CFI that is > > not objective is either way too tough to be fair or too easy for the > > students on good no matter how hard they try to be completely fair. It > > can cause very hard feelings that can easily last. > > DJ Vegh wrote: > > > >>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "DJ Vegh" > >> > >>My uncle is currently a Student Pilot with about 12 hours. > >> > >>He wants to stop training for a Private Pilot certificate, buy a LSA and > >>get a Sport Pilot certificate. We were talking and I told him that I am > >>seriously looking into getting my Sport Pilot Instructors certificate. If > >>I > >>did I'd teach him in his aircraft.... BUT, > >> > >>I'm wondering.... if he gets a taildragger (like a Kolb or Kitfox, etc.) > >>will he need a tailwheel endorsement?? and if so, would I (being a Sport > >>Pilot Instructor) be able to endorse him for tailwheel flight in his > >>airplane? > >> > >>I'll give 1 minute of free advice (estimated value $.02) to anyone who can > >>answer my question ;) > >> > >>DJ > >>www.imagedv.com/aircamper > >>N74DV > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:27 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=uvbSRacCbW9SpWIuY6lCW97c82/8yVqMl8+0LOsPQ2MMdxk9x5C9acPkV4V30f7tir+Y0DwaBjL2d2PPDGjrdPwC8v9wrNKZ+yI853muYbYtNfFtqJaKCIdgTotK8GmcRsNl1dVIjW2/vaC/vTZMYnIatw8rhD0vMvlwMvcvPxo= ; From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: LSA regs and tailwheell endorsements My opinion: Remember that when tranning the Instructor has to be VERY firm in his corrections, and clases. The student life (in the future) could depends on that trainning. If you cant be firm enough without hurting feelings, dont do it. But flights, with advice, once he got his ticket, are always welcome. This from all pilots Newbes or "good" ones. Saludos Gary Gower (Just do what you decide, maybe not a good opinion :-) TomTravis@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/14/2005 6:15:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, aerialphotos@dp.net writes: Relatives are just too close for an instructor to do their job properly. Sometimes that can be true but not always. I taught my daughter to fly and it's something we've enjoyed together for years. We still get on pretty well even though she's a professional pilot and I'm her chief pilot. I must admit when we went through recurrent training last week and her V1 cuts were better than mine it was hard to take. It all depends on your relationship with your uncle. If neither of you have your egos wrapped up in it you can have lots of good safe fun. ---------------------------------