---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/02/05:8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:01 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com) 2. 04:21 AM - Re: O-200 need muffler? (Phillips, Jack) 3. 06:12 AM - Re: O-200 need muffler? (walt evans) 4. 08:00 AM - Re: O-200 need muffler? (Steve Ruse) 5. 10:41 AM - Re: kinda OT......Interesting video.... (Michael D Cuy) 6. 02:37 PM - Re: O-200 need muffler? (walt evans) 7. 05:40 PM - Re: O-200 need muffler? (Steve Ruse) 8. 10:03 PM - Interesting looking Piet (Catdesign) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:40 AM PST US From: dralle@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com Dear Lister, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Ted, The engine will be quite happy with straight pipes, but you might not be. My 65 Continental has no mufflers, with 2-into-1 exhaust manifolds on each side. They really bark, and I'm sorta wishing I had put mufflers on it. Jack Phillips Still working on repairing NX899JP All structural repairs done All fabric work done Nuthin' left but painting and assembly --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" Hi, I have a newly rebuilt O-200 sitting here waiting (and waiting) for me to finish the fuselage. It occurred to me that almost every Piet I have seen has no mufflers but are usually 65 to 85 hp. Do I need to concern myself with a muffler or something else to make enough back pressure to keep the O-200 happy? Will straight pipes burn valves? Thanks, Ted 90% done and 90% to go. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:31 AM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? <001901c54ebe$8977a6c0$4a374e0c@TedB> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Ted, Don't know about the back pressure thing, but my A-65 with 4 separate straight pipes ending just forward of the front pit, it's not a quiet ride. But people on the ground say it's a beautiful, unique sound, and not to change a thing. Think even with mufflers a Piet would never be an "open air conversation" type plane. I have an intercom with headsets that work quite well. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > Hi, > > I have a newly rebuilt O-200 sitting here waiting (and waiting) for me to > finish the fuselage. It occurred to me that almost every Piet I have seen > has no mufflers but are usually 65 to 85 hp. Do I need to concern myself > with a muffler or something else to make enough back pressure to keep the > O-200 happy? Will straight pipes burn valves? > > Thanks, > > Ted > 90% done and 90% to go. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:27 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse As for "burning the valves", in my experience with cars, I belive 10"-12" of pipe is enough to protect the valves. Basically I think you are just trying to keep cold/oxygen rich air away from them. Maybe someone else here can confirm or deny that. As for backpressure, I see a lot of discussion on that, on both sides of the fence, and my take has always been that it is not necessary at all, and unless you want to get into a tuned exhaust system it isn't even worth discussing. I've never seen a dyno graph that showed reduced torque at any RPM due to a lower backpressure exhaust system. From an engineering standpoint, I wouldn't expect to see one either. My GN-1 with an A-75 and open pipes is quite noisy! A large portion of the noise my passenger's mic picks up is from the exhaust, I can clearly hear it through my headset. I wish it was quieter, but honestly with a decent headset it doesn't bother me. I don't know what a typical muffler weighs for an O-200, but I wouldn't want to pay much of a weight penalty to make the plane quieter. Right now my intercom is nearly useless due to the wind/engine noise. Last week I ordered some leather mic covers/muffs that should help a lot though. I've used them in a Starduster and they did help a lot, although it is hard to compare it to the Pietenpol since the Starduster has mufflers and a less windy cockpit. I don't even remember where I ordered them from now, I can check this evening if anyone wants to know. I won't be able to try them out until next weekend. Steve Ruse - Coppell, TX N6383J - KGYI Quoting walt evans : > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" > > Ted, > Don't know about the back pressure thing, but my A-65 with 4 separate > straight pipes ending just forward of the front pit, it's not a quiet ride. > But people on the ground say it's a beautiful, unique sound, and not to > change a thing. Think even with mufflers a Piet would never be an "open air > conversation" type plane. > I have an intercom with headsets that work quite well. > walt evans > NX140DL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ted Brousseau" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:07 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? > > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a newly rebuilt O-200 sitting here waiting (and waiting) for me to >> finish the fuselage. It occurred to me that almost every Piet I have seen >> has no mufflers but are usually 65 to 85 hp. Do I need to concern myself >> with a muffler or something else to make enough back pressure to keep the >> O-200 happy? Will straight pipes burn valves? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ted >> 90% done and 90% to go. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:58 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: kinda OT......Interesting video.... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Hey Walt-- Yes, that was me in the Restorers video clip. A local film maker contacted me to be in this documentary and though I didn't fit the typical bill for the 'restorers' kind of subject, he liked the diversion from heavy metal WWII restorations to back-to-the-basics type building that the Pietetenpol has. He strapped his Super 16 mm movie camera ( I think 16 is for 16 pounds:) to the front cabane with foam padding, duct tape, straps, etc. He rode in the front while we did buzz jobs on farmland and such. My portion of this hour long video is only about 6 minutes but it's all Pietenpol. It has aired on local Cleveland PBS stations but he's trying to get it aired on something big like Discovery or History Channel, etc. Mike C. http://www.therestorers.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:56 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? <001901c54ebe$8977a6c0$4a374e0c@TedB> <002401c54f18$8a38b9f0$2cc5fea9@home> <20050502105956.5yg836hng80kgsc8@www.wotelectronics.com> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Steve, Got a great idea from somebody, and the cost is free! Get the plastic 35mm film containers. Cut an "X" in the lid and slide it on the mic arm. Then wrap some foam around the mic and slide on the 35mm can after you have drilled a 1/4" hole in the side. Line up the hole with your mouth. Better than sliced bread. Just keep the hole tight against your mouth to keep out engine noise. My engine noise keeps my intercom open, but makes for a pleasant ride with me as the tour guide. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ruse" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse > > As for "burning the valves", in my experience with cars, I belive 10"-12" of > pipe is enough to protect the valves. Basically I think you are just > trying to > keep cold/oxygen rich air away from them. Maybe someone else here can confirm > or deny that. > > As for backpressure, I see a lot of discussion on that, on both sides of the > fence, and my take has always been that it is not necessary at all, and unless > you want to get into a tuned exhaust system it isn't even worth discussing. > I've never seen a dyno graph that showed reduced torque at any RPM due to a > lower backpressure exhaust system. From an engineering standpoint, I wouldn't > expect to see one either. > > My GN-1 with an A-75 and open pipes is quite noisy! A large portion of the > noise my passenger's mic picks up is from the exhaust, I can clearly hear it > through my headset. I wish it was quieter, but honestly with a decent headset > it doesn't bother me. I don't know what a typical muffler weighs for > an O-200, > but I wouldn't want to pay much of a weight penalty to make the plane quieter. > Right now my intercom is nearly useless due to the wind/engine noise. Last > week I ordered some leather mic covers/muffs that should help a lot though. > I've used them in a Starduster and they did help a lot, although it is hard to > compare it to the Pietenpol since the Starduster has mufflers and a less windy > cockpit. I don't even remember where I ordered them from now, I can > check this > evening if anyone wants to know. I won't be able to try them out until next > weekend. > > Steve Ruse - Coppell, TX > N6383J - KGYI > > Quoting walt evans : > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" > > > > Ted, > > Don't know about the back pressure thing, but my A-65 with 4 separate > > straight pipes ending just forward of the front pit, it's not a quiet ride. > > But people on the ground say it's a beautiful, unique sound, and not to > > change a thing. Think even with mufflers a Piet would never be an "open air > > conversation" type plane. > > I have an intercom with headsets that work quite well. > > walt evans > > NX140DL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ted Brousseau" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:07 PM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? > > > > > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I have a newly rebuilt O-200 sitting here waiting (and waiting) for me to > >> finish the fuselage. It occurred to me that almost every Piet I have seen > >> has no mufflers but are usually 65 to 85 hp. Do I need to concern myself > >> with a muffler or something else to make enough back pressure to keep the > >> O-200 happy? Will straight pipes burn valves? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Ted > >> 90% done and 90% to go. > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:37 PM PST US From: "Steve Ruse" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Ruse" As for "burning the valves", in my experience with cars, I believe 10"-12" of pipe is enough to protect the valves. Basically I think you are just trying to keep cold/oxygen rich air away from them. Maybe someone else here can confirm or deny that. As for backpressure, I see a lot of discussion on that, on both sides of the fence, and my take has always been that it is not necessary at all, and unless you want to get into a tuned exhaust system it isn't even worth discussing. I've never seen a dyno graph that showed reduced torque at any RPM due to a lower backpressure exhaust system. From an engineering standpoint, I wouldn't expect to see reduced power either. My GN-1 with an A-75 and open pipes is quite noisy! A large portion of the noise my passenger's mic picks up is from the exhaust, I can clearly hear it through my headset. I wish it was quieter at times, but honestly with a decent headset it doesn't bother me. I don't know what a typical muffler weighs for an O-200, but I wouldn't want to pay much of a weight penalty to make the plane quieter. Right now my intercom is nearly useless due to the wind/engine noise. Last week I ordered some leather mic covers/muffs that should help a lot. I've used them in a Starduster and they did help a lot, although it is hard to compare it to the Pietenpol since the Starduster had mufflers and a less windy cockpit. I don't even remember where I ordered them from now, I can check this evening if anyone wants to know. I won't be able to try them out until next weekend. Steve Ruse - Coppell, TX N6383J - KGYI -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of walt evans Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" Ted, Don't know about the back pressure thing, but my A-65 with 4 separate straight pipes ending just forward of the front pit, it's not a quiet ride. But people on the ground say it's a beautiful, unique sound, and not to change a thing. Think even with mufflers a Piet would never be an "open air conversation" type plane. I have an intercom with headsets that work quite well. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: O-200 need muffler? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" > > Hi, > > I have a newly rebuilt O-200 sitting here waiting (and waiting) for me to > finish the fuselage. It occurred to me that almost every Piet I have seen > has no mufflers but are usually 65 to 85 hp. Do I need to concern myself > with a muffler or something else to make enough back pressure to keep the > O-200 happy? Will straight pipes burn valves? > > Thanks, > > Ted > 90% done and 90% to go. > > -- -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:33 PM PST US From: "Catdesign" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Interesting looking Piet --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Catdesign" Interesting looking Piet, not sure where it is located (yes I know it's at the bottom of the page, but what country). Looks like the tail is different along with some rounding of the fuselage. Might be a different wing too. http://www.aeroclubandernos.com/ses_avions_bases.html Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Do not archive