Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Re: spar idea (Dave Esslinger)
2. 05:11 AM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Jim Ash)
3. 05:33 AM - Box Spar (rhartwig11@juno.com)
4. 07:07 AM - Re: spars (Ed G.)
5. 08:42 AM - Re: Box Spar (Galen Hutcheson)
6. 08:54 AM - Re: Spars (Galen Hutcheson)
7. 10:26 AM - Re: Spars ()
8. 03:31 PM - Re: Spars (Galen Hutcheson)
9. 04:48 PM - Re: spars (Peter W Johnson)
10. 05:24 PM - Re: Bob Lyjack (Jim Malley)
11. 05:55 PM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Clif Dawson)
12. 10:21 PM - spars (TRichmo9@aol.com)
13. 11:47 PM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Esslinger" <aquanaut@indy.rr.com>
Mike C. thanks for the sketch. You cut out the back of your center section,
I'm guessing for ease of getting in and out. Would you do it again? And
could you share the basics of what you did?
Thanks to all for the help.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D
Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar idea
Dave-- see attached chicken-scratch drawing on how I did mine...and how I
would do them in the future.
Mike C.
---
---
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fortal Alloy |
I do metal casting and machining at home for a hobby. I've subscribed to
Home Shop Machinist (one of Machinist's Workshop's sister publications)
since the early 90's. As part of this hobby, I try to keep my eye out for
interesting tools and materials. I first saw Fortal the one time I went to
Oshkosh in '99. It looked to me like they were selling short cuts from
somebody else's manufacturing. I bought a chunk of it then to machine and
play with, but it's in my raw stock pile and I honestly haven't touched it.
Those few times I checked, there's always a pile of it for sale on ebay.
My education is engineering in digital / electronics, not metallurgy, but I
try to understand it enough for my hobby needs. Someday I'll teach myself
some serious metallurgy and material properties analysis, but for now, I
fake it. It grated on me then that they seemed to hide the alloy
designation behind the name, as if they were trying to sell me tap water.
When I first saw it, the material sounded a little magical, but I'm not
about to waste my time setting up and machining a critical part without
knowing some of the basic material properties of the raw stock. Somewhere,
somehow, I ended up with a booklet on Fortal from a company called Superior
Die Set Corp (I just dug it out of my mess and have it in front of me). As
best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum.
Do a web seach on 7175 mechanical properties and see if what you find
matches your data.
Jim Ash
At 5/15/2005 07:08 PM -0400, you wrote:
>I take a magazine entitled "Machinist's Workshop" Published by Village
>press in Traverse City, MI. In the Dec.04/Jan.05 issue, there was an
>article about a metal that was completely new to me. It appears to be an
>aluminum alloy and is called "Fortal".I made a table of properties
>comparing it to 6061 and to steel to send as an attachment to a posting,
>but the list cop at Matronics threw it out (too big). The table shows its'
>tensile strength to be 78,320 psi compared to 64,000 psi for 1020
>steel.Shear strength is the same as 1020. Density is the same as 6061.
>Don't know about weldability, but the author of the article says it can be
>cut on an ordinary wood-cutting bandsaw. I would be glad to send a xerox
>copy of the article to anyone who will send me a SASE. I feel ignorant
>about this...I've been an engineer for the last 48 years..Where has this
>stuff been? A source for Fortal (I hate the name) is at
><http://www.mousebar.com/home.html.....
>..Carl>http://www.mousebar.com/home.html ......Carl Vought/ 1324 Toney
>Dr., Huntsville, AL 35802
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com
Doc,
You may want to have an engineer check out your plans for a box spar. I
ran your numbers on a spar strength calculator. It indicated that your
spar would be less than half the strength of the 3/4 X 4 3/4" Pietenpol
spar. I used 4 3/4" height for your finished spar (I assumed that the 4
1/4" in your post was a typo.) with 1" high X 1/2" wide caps and 2 webs
of 1/8 " ply. Also, I haven't seen diagonals on box spars. Built up
spars usually depend on the plywood to take those loads--the most
preferred method being to have the ply grain at 45 degrees, but 90
degrees seems to be satisfactory for most designers.
Dick Hartwig
Message 4
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
Hi Tom..I would like a copy of the British spar plans. I tried to buy a set
from the English guys a few years ago but the designer was afraid to sell
them in the States because of our illustrious legal system..How did you get
a hold of a set??..They look like a great way to go for spars and they're
well proven..I'm going to build my wings this summer...let me know what you
need to cover the copying...
Thanks Ed Grentzer West Coast, Florida Do not archive
>From: TRichmo9@aol.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars
>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:48:07 EDT
>
>i got a set of plans from a friend of the british box spars and quick
>connects, they need some work but are useable im going to copy and redraft
>them if
>anyone wants a set let me know i just want the cost of copying them
> tom
Message 5
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=yw5UCKYxUErhvTnYhBlib8m4LI0x8zgQCHDI9ruOkNrW5LxTEEPhV6JIpqU9iLcURbxklE2P3HePD3t0v8rR0rGHuTlrGCf4FvWSIY0PQw48rLA8pT1FoJ7XSHEZH8FvxufxUMkBsRg1cjGPMngCiu1t85ru7SGaFc1pRHgw3AU=
;
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Thanks Dick,
I had an engineer friend of mine over last Sat. and
had him look over the project. We discussed the spar
design in detail. He said the diagonals sandwiched
with the skins would add plenty of strength to the
spars. The diagonals will be approximately 45 degrees
to the horizontal beams and will help translate the
loading stresses, along with the skins, to even out
these stresses over the length of the spars. I am
also considering filling in the voids between these
internal members with 1/2" balsa sheets, cut to shape,
which adds little weight but seems to increase the
strength of the sandwich design by quite a bit by
simply adding more gluing surface. Plus, remember I
am building not a Pietenpol monoplane wing, but a
Curtiss JN-4 2 bay biplane wing so the spars will be
carrying far less stress per span than the monoplane
design. I appreciate your feedback on this and welcome
all the help I can get.
Doc
--- rhartwig11@juno.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> rhartwig11@juno.com
>
> Doc,
> You may want to have an engineer check out your
> plans for a box spar. I
> ran your numbers on a spar strength calculator. It
> indicated that your
> spar would be less than half the strength of the 3/4
> X 4 3/4" Pietenpol
> spar. I used 4 3/4" height for your finished spar
> (I assumed that the 4
> 1/4" in your post was a typo.) with 1" high X 1/2"
> wide caps and 2 webs
> of 1/8 " ply. Also, I haven't seen diagonals on box
> spars. Built up
> spars usually depend on the plywood to take those
> loads--the most
> preferred method being to have the ply grain at 45
> degrees, but 90
> degrees seems to be satisfactory for most designers.
> Dick Hartwig
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=4YicrThVlf0mDwdhENbIHDC38G2mQ2l7iENCcMnAA/xZ/2I8QL5fcPU9+3abN07vPpBfH4dYHdt2A67TfUdSpIYqKQiTDM5aMHan0sFsbxlvm1uOcXyV/PDx3cC+px46N17/FB3leC7OSpay0M0ae4lDv3uGT54BeLwZwZ6eC3k=
;
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Hi Greg,
I am going to send you an SASE for the article. I
appreciate you doing this. What size envelope will
you need? Thanks.
Doc
DO NOT ARCHIVE
--- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M. Central
> Daylight Time,
> gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>
> Dave,
> I have an article from an early 1960's Sport
> Aviation on designing a built-up
> spar.
> I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends an
> SASE to:
>
> Greg Cardinal
> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> Minneapolis, MN 55417
>
>
>
>
>
> > ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> mark markle sent me pics of your plane its awsome i
> love the wicker seats.tom
>
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
Message 7
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
A #10 envelope will be just fine.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen
> Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> I am going to send you an SASE for the
> article. I
> appreciate you doing this. What size
> envelope will
> you need? Thanks.
>
> Doc
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> --- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M.
>> Central
>> Daylight Time,
>> gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes:
>>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
>> <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>>
>> Dave,
>> I have an article from an early 1960's
>> Sport
>> Aviation on designing a built-up
>> spar.
>> I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends
>> an
>> SASE to:
>>
>> Greg Cardinal
>> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
>> Minneapolis, MN 55417
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > ---
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> mark markle sent me pics of your plane its
>> awsome i
>> love the wicker seats.tom
>>
>
>
> Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes,
> news and more. Check it out!
> http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
>
>
> Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> Subscriptions page,
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
>
>
Message 8
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=jFk/Gy8nKAe1bd3Wu8hoNApUn8I1x0tPQcMJJt9/35FygSOj9o8DT1Yuw3HUH91iH4dj6qJSpYvpy+/RzAt909p6YlSoyhnDgxnB0TTdt8Vscbi+M0C/TpPGZRfgbKgPtU6KF7LN3TyRR+vDBRXEP1G6LWPgGt+naUpGQNU1FK4=
;
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Thanks Greg, I will get it in the mail.
Doc
Do Not Archive
--- gcardinal@mn.rr.com wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
>
> A #10 envelope will be just fine.
>
> Greg
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 10:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen
> > Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> > I am going to send you an SASE for the
> > article. I
> > appreciate you doing this. What size
> > envelope will
> > you need? Thanks.
> >
> > Doc
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > --- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M.
> >> Central
> >> Daylight Time,
> >> gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes:
> >>
> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by:
> >> <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
> >>
> >> Dave,
> >> I have an article from an early 1960's
> >> Sport
> >> Aviation on designing a built-up
> >> spar.
> >> I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends
> >> an
> >> SASE to:
> >>
> >> Greg Cardinal
> >> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So.
> >> Minneapolis, MN 55417
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > ---
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> mark markle sent me pics of your plane its
> >> awsome i
> >> love the wicker seats.tom
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes,
> > news and more. Check it out!
> > http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Forum -
> > Navigator to browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
Message 9
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Peter W Johnson" <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Hi Guys,
My plans from Jim Wills (UK) cost GBP120.00
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi, Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: spars
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
Hi Tom..I would like a copy of the British spar plans. I tried to buy a set
from the English guys a few years ago but the designer was afraid to sell
them in the States because of our illustrious legal system..How did you get
a hold of a set??..They look like a great way to go for spars and they're
well proven..I'm going to build my wings this summer...let me know what you
need to cover the copying...
Thanks Ed Grentzer West Coast, Florida Do not archive
>From: TRichmo9@aol.com
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars
>Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:48:07 EDT
>
>i got a set of plans from a friend of the british box spars and quick
>connects, they need some work but are useable im going to copy and redraft
>them if
>anyone wants a set let me know i just want the cost of copying them
> tom
Message 10
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Malley" <jgmalley@comcast.net>
Big Ed was well known in northern Jersey, his brother, Bob, still flies out
of Alexandria Field, that's where George Mennen had his aircraft (a beat-up
Luscombe, if I remember right). Anyhow, George sponsored Ed, keeping him
supplied with enough aftershave to seduce a countryside. Ed was the first
person to encourage me to build my own plane. Nice that he's remembered by
others as well.
Jim Malley
----- Original Message -----
From: <FTLovley@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bob Lyjack
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: FTLovley@aol.com
>
> The pilot for Mennen was Ed (Big Ed) Mahler flying a PJ-260. He later
died
> in the airplane because he disregarded a broken tail strut that he didn't
think
> he needed.
> Forrest Lovley
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fortal Alloy |
http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf
Is this the same as the booklet you have?
Clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy
Somewhere, somehow, I ended up with a booklet on Fortal from a company called
Superior Die Set Corp (I just dug it out of my mess and have it in front of me).
As best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum.
Jim Ash
Message 12
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just foe everyones info the plans ive got have no trademarks names or show
anywhere on them who or where they were drafted.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fortal Alloy |
<005201c55c0d$05e04040$60705118@dawsonaviation>
I knew I had this somewhere. Looking through their listings for the 7175
range you mentioned, this seems the closest and the alloy composition
Superior lists falls within the range listed here too.
Ah, the wonders of marketing. A rose by any other name.......
http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnumMA7175T736
Clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy
http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf
Is this the same as the booklet you have?
Clif
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy
As best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum.
Jim Ash
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