---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/18/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:59 AM - Re: spar idea (Dave Esslinger) 2. 05:11 AM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Jim Ash) 3. 05:33 AM - Box Spar (rhartwig11@juno.com) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: spars (Ed G.) 5. 08:42 AM - Re: Box Spar (Galen Hutcheson) 6. 08:54 AM - Re: Spars (Galen Hutcheson) 7. 10:26 AM - Re: Spars () 8. 03:31 PM - Re: Spars (Galen Hutcheson) 9. 04:48 PM - Re: spars (Peter W Johnson) 10. 05:24 PM - Re: Bob Lyjack (Jim Malley) 11. 05:55 PM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Clif Dawson) 12. 10:21 PM - spars (TRichmo9@aol.com) 13. 11:47 PM - Re: Fortal Alloy (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:21 AM PST US From: "Dave Esslinger" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: spar idea --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dave Esslinger" Mike C. thanks for the sketch. You cut out the back of your center section, I'm guessing for ease of getting in and out. Would you do it again? And could you share the basics of what you did? Thanks to all for the help. Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: spar idea Dave-- see attached chicken-scratch drawing on how I did mine...and how I would do them in the future. Mike C. --- --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:24 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy I do metal casting and machining at home for a hobby. I've subscribed to Home Shop Machinist (one of Machinist's Workshop's sister publications) since the early 90's. As part of this hobby, I try to keep my eye out for interesting tools and materials. I first saw Fortal the one time I went to Oshkosh in '99. It looked to me like they were selling short cuts from somebody else's manufacturing. I bought a chunk of it then to machine and play with, but it's in my raw stock pile and I honestly haven't touched it. Those few times I checked, there's always a pile of it for sale on ebay. My education is engineering in digital / electronics, not metallurgy, but I try to understand it enough for my hobby needs. Someday I'll teach myself some serious metallurgy and material properties analysis, but for now, I fake it. It grated on me then that they seemed to hide the alloy designation behind the name, as if they were trying to sell me tap water. When I first saw it, the material sounded a little magical, but I'm not about to waste my time setting up and machining a critical part without knowing some of the basic material properties of the raw stock. Somewhere, somehow, I ended up with a booklet on Fortal from a company called Superior Die Set Corp (I just dug it out of my mess and have it in front of me). As best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum. Do a web seach on 7175 mechanical properties and see if what you find matches your data. Jim Ash At 5/15/2005 07:08 PM -0400, you wrote: >I take a magazine entitled "Machinist's Workshop" Published by Village >press in Traverse City, MI. In the Dec.04/Jan.05 issue, there was an >article about a metal that was completely new to me. It appears to be an >aluminum alloy and is called "Fortal".I made a table of properties >comparing it to 6061 and to steel to send as an attachment to a posting, >but the list cop at Matronics threw it out (too big). The table shows its' >tensile strength to be 78,320 psi compared to 64,000 psi for 1020 >steel.Shear strength is the same as 1020. Density is the same as 6061. >Don't know about weldability, but the author of the article says it can be >cut on an ordinary wood-cutting bandsaw. I would be glad to send a xerox >copy of the article to anyone who will send me a SASE. I feel ignorant >about this...I've been an engineer for the last 48 years..Where has this >stuff been? A source for Fortal (I hate the name) is at >..Carl>http://www.mousebar.com/home.html ......Carl Vought/ 1324 Toney >Dr., Huntsville, AL 35802 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:22 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Box Spar From: rhartwig11@juno.com --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: rhartwig11@juno.com Doc, You may want to have an engineer check out your plans for a box spar. I ran your numbers on a spar strength calculator. It indicated that your spar would be less than half the strength of the 3/4 X 4 3/4" Pietenpol spar. I used 4 3/4" height for your finished spar (I assumed that the 4 1/4" in your post was a typo.) with 1" high X 1/2" wide caps and 2 webs of 1/8 " ply. Also, I haven't seen diagonals on box spars. Built up spars usually depend on the plywood to take those loads--the most preferred method being to have the ply grain at 45 degrees, but 90 degrees seems to be satisfactory for most designers. Dick Hartwig ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:46 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." Hi Tom..I would like a copy of the British spar plans. I tried to buy a set from the English guys a few years ago but the designer was afraid to sell them in the States because of our illustrious legal system..How did you get a hold of a set??..They look like a great way to go for spars and they're well proven..I'm going to build my wings this summer...let me know what you need to cover the copying... Thanks Ed Grentzer West Coast, Florida Do not archive >From: TRichmo9@aol.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:48:07 EDT > >i got a set of plans from a friend of the british box spars and quick >connects, they need some work but are useable im going to copy and redraft >them if >anyone wants a set let me know i just want the cost of copying them > tom ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:03 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=yw5UCKYxUErhvTnYhBlib8m4LI0x8zgQCHDI9ruOkNrW5LxTEEPhV6JIpqU9iLcURbxklE2P3HePD3t0v8rR0rGHuTlrGCf4FvWSIY0PQw48rLA8pT1FoJ7XSHEZH8FvxufxUMkBsRg1cjGPMngCiu1t85ru7SGaFc1pRHgw3AU= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Box Spar --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Thanks Dick, I had an engineer friend of mine over last Sat. and had him look over the project. We discussed the spar design in detail. He said the diagonals sandwiched with the skins would add plenty of strength to the spars. The diagonals will be approximately 45 degrees to the horizontal beams and will help translate the loading stresses, along with the skins, to even out these stresses over the length of the spars. I am also considering filling in the voids between these internal members with 1/2" balsa sheets, cut to shape, which adds little weight but seems to increase the strength of the sandwich design by quite a bit by simply adding more gluing surface. Plus, remember I am building not a Pietenpol monoplane wing, but a Curtiss JN-4 2 bay biplane wing so the spars will be carrying far less stress per span than the monoplane design. I appreciate your feedback on this and welcome all the help I can get. Doc --- rhartwig11@juno.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > rhartwig11@juno.com > > Doc, > You may want to have an engineer check out your > plans for a box spar. I > ran your numbers on a spar strength calculator. It > indicated that your > spar would be less than half the strength of the 3/4 > X 4 3/4" Pietenpol > spar. I used 4 3/4" height for your finished spar > (I assumed that the 4 > 1/4" in your post was a typo.) with 1" high X 1/2" > wide caps and 2 webs > of 1/8 " ply. Also, I haven't seen diagonals on box > spars. Built up > spars usually depend on the plywood to take those > loads--the most > preferred method being to have the ply grain at 45 > degrees, but 90 > degrees seems to be satisfactory for most designers. > Dick Hartwig > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:33 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4YicrThVlf0mDwdhENbIHDC38G2mQ2l7iENCcMnAA/xZ/2I8QL5fcPU9+3abN07vPpBfH4dYHdt2A67TfUdSpIYqKQiTDM5aMHan0sFsbxlvm1uOcXyV/PDx3cC+px46N17/FB3leC7OSpay0M0ae4lDv3uGT54BeLwZwZ6eC3k= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Hi Greg, I am going to send you an SASE for the article. I appreciate you doing this. What size envelope will you need? Thanks. Doc DO NOT ARCHIVE --- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M. Central > Daylight Time, > gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > Dave, > I have an article from an early 1960's Sport > Aviation on designing a built-up > spar. > I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends an > SASE to: > > Greg Cardinal > 5236 Shoreview Ave. So. > Minneapolis, MN 55417 > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mark markle sent me pics of your plane its awsome i > love the wicker seats.tom > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:57 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: A #10 envelope will be just fine. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Hutcheson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen > Hutcheson > > Hi Greg, > > I am going to send you an SASE for the > article. I > appreciate you doing this. What size > envelope will > you need? Thanks. > > Doc > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > --- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote: > >> >> In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M. >> Central >> Daylight Time, >> gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: >> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: >> >> >> Dave, >> I have an article from an early 1960's >> Sport >> Aviation on designing a built-up >> spar. >> I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends >> an >> SASE to: >> >> Greg Cardinal >> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So. >> Minneapolis, MN 55417 >> >> >> >> >> >> > --- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> mark markle sent me pics of your plane its >> awsome i >> love the wicker seats.tom >> > > > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, > news and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html > > > Forum - > Navigator to browse > Subscriptions page, > Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:55 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jFk/Gy8nKAe1bd3Wu8hoNApUn8I1x0tPQcMJJt9/35FygSOj9o8DT1Yuw3HUH91iH4dj6qJSpYvpy+/RzAt909p6YlSoyhnDgxnB0TTdt8Vscbi+M0C/TpPGZRfgbKgPtU6KF7LN3TyRR+vDBRXEP1G6LWPgGt+naUpGQNU1FK4= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Thanks Greg, I will get it in the mail. Doc Do Not Archive --- gcardinal@mn.rr.com wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > > > A #10 envelope will be just fine. > > Greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Galen Hutcheson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen > > Hutcheson > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > I am going to send you an SASE for the > > article. I > > appreciate you doing this. What size > > envelope will > > you need? Thanks. > > > > Doc > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > --- TRichmo9@aol.com wrote: > > > >> > >> In a message dated 5/16/05 6:02:15 P.M. > >> Central > >> Daylight Time, > >> gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: > >> > >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: > >> > >> > >> Dave, > >> I have an article from an early 1960's > >> Sport > >> Aviation on designing a built-up > >> spar. > >> I'll send out a copy to anyone who sends > >> an > >> SASE to: > >> > >> Greg Cardinal > >> 5236 Shoreview Ave. So. > >> Minneapolis, MN 55417 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> mark markle sent me pics of your plane its > >> awsome i > >> love the wicker seats.tom > >> > > > > > > > > > > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, > > news and more. Check it out! > > http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html > > > > > > > > Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > Subscriptions page, > > Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:14 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Peter W Johnson" Hi Guys, My plans from Jim Wills (UK) cost GBP120.00 Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G. Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." Hi Tom..I would like a copy of the British spar plans. I tried to buy a set from the English guys a few years ago but the designer was afraid to sell them in the States because of our illustrious legal system..How did you get a hold of a set??..They look like a great way to go for spars and they're well proven..I'm going to build my wings this summer...let me know what you need to cover the copying... Thanks Ed Grentzer West Coast, Florida Do not archive >From: TRichmo9@aol.com >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars >Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:48:07 EDT > >i got a set of plans from a friend of the british box spars and quick >connects, they need some work but are useable im going to copy and redraft >them if >anyone wants a set let me know i just want the cost of copying them > tom ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:05 PM PST US From: "Jim Malley" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bob Lyjack --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jim Malley" Big Ed was well known in northern Jersey, his brother, Bob, still flies out of Alexandria Field, that's where George Mennen had his aircraft (a beat-up Luscombe, if I remember right). Anyhow, George sponsored Ed, keeping him supplied with enough aftershave to seduce a countryside. Ed was the first person to encourage me to build my own plane. Nice that he's remembered by others as well. Jim Malley ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bob Lyjack > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: FTLovley@aol.com > > The pilot for Mennen was Ed (Big Ed) Mahler flying a PJ-260. He later died > in the airplane because he disregarded a broken tail strut that he didn't think > he needed. > Forrest Lovley > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:21 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf Is this the same as the booklet you have? Clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy Somewhere, somehow, I ended up with a booklet on Fortal from a company called Superior Die Set Corp (I just dug it out of my mess and have it in front of me). As best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum. Jim Ash ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:01 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: spars just foe everyones info the plans ive got have no trademarks names or show anywhere on them who or where they were drafted. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:54 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy <005201c55c0d$05e04040$60705118@dawsonaviation> I knew I had this somewhere. Looking through their listings for the 7175 range you mentioned, this seems the closest and the alloy composition Superior lists falls within the range listed here too. Ah, the wonders of marketing. A rose by any other name....... http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnumMA7175T736 Clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf Is this the same as the booklet you have? Clif Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fortal Alloy As best I can tell, it looks to me like the stuff is 7175 aluminum. Jim Ash