Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:25 AM - New Tasmanian Pietenpol (M&M Stanley)
2. 10:25 AM - Re: A GOOD day at the airport (Jack Phillips)
3. 10:36 AM - Re: A GOOD day at the airport (Michael D Cuy)
4. 10:51 PM - Aviation News (AVIATION GROUP)
5. 11:06 PM - First flight report ()
6. 11:06 PM - more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report (Christian Bobka)
7. 11:29 PM - Re: Rear lower seatbelt attach advice (Gene Hubbard)
8. 11:36 PM - Turnbuckles (Alan Lyscars)
Message 1
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| Subject: | New Tasmanian Pietenpol |
Congratulations to Simon McCormack in Tasmania with his new Pietenpol !
I also received that photo of it in flight. The workmanship on his Piet is
excellent and I think it looks like a Piet should look, (my opinion
anyway!!) He said it has around 20 hours flight time on it now. The test
flights went very well but he has installed some type of small elevator trim
tab to light to get rid of some back pressure on the stick. He's a happy
man !
I want to go and say G'day and see the finished product sometime. Simon is a
really good bloke ( 'bloke' is Australian slang for 'a man').
Anyway. it's great to see it in the air instead of on the ground, plus a
father and son flying together is a very good thing to see!
So, Congratulations and have fun!!
Mark Stanley
Japan..................25 ribs and still going
Message 2
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| Subject: | A GOOD day at the airport |
Way to go, Greg and Dale!!!! Congratulations!
Jack Phillips
(about to do the first flight of NX899JP, again)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gcardinal@mn.rr.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A GOOD day at the airport
NX18235 flies!
4 flights, 2.25 hours in the air. Chris Bobka at the controls.
A couple of slight rigging adjustments to correct a heavy left wing and a
left turning tendency.
A-65 ran strong and cool.
Full report to follow.
Greg Cardinal
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: A GOOD day at the airport |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
CONGRATULATIONS Dale and Greg !!! Fly off that time so weze can see youse
at Brodhead !!!
Mike C.
Message 4
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"tmbrant1@netzero.com" <tmbrant1@netzero.net> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "tmbrant1@netzero.com"
Greg / Dale - Congratulations! If you need any ground support let me know and I'd
be glad to help out. I know the weather around here has been so unpredictable
lately...
Good luck and may the force be with you.
Tom Brant
Message 5
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| Subject: | First flight report |
Here is Chris Bobka's report on the first flights:
The first flight report of the Pietenpol is as follows:
2:40 was flown in five flights this morning and afternoon. Wind was 1/2 to full
quartering right headwind at a steady 10 kts. Field conditions were dry grass.
Location was Stanton Field, near Northfield, Minnesota. The ship has spoked
motorcycle wheels and tyres rolling on bronze bushings with no brakes and
a tail skid. A straight axle and wrapped bungies provided suspension. The first
flight was 45 minutes, second flight was about 20 minutes, third flight was
about 25 minutes, fourth flight was 25 minutes and the fifth flight was 45 minutes.
A few years ago I wrote a long dissertation on how to select the proper axle location
with the 1929 style wooden gear legs installed on the long "Corvair" fuselage.
I was right on the money in the analysis because at the aft CG loading
that we had, the ship would perform flawlessly on the grass. Travelling 90
degrees to the 10 knot wind, I could turn into the wind by stick aft, windward
rudder, and a burst of power and I could turn away from the wind by stick forward,
lee rudder, and a burst of power. I was comfortable taxiing next to buildings
and other aircraft with very little practice.
I weigh 220 lbs and Greg computed that we needed 100 lbs of ballast in the forward
bag compartment (aft of firewall above passenger's feet) to get loaded CG
at .5" forward of arbitrary aft CG limit (greg will have to give you the datum
and the CG range, etc.)
The ship is powered by an A-65 freshly overhauled with a homemade wood prop that
was made using a duplicating machine copying an old Sensenich W72C42 blade from
about 50 years ago.
The motor mount as originally made had TONS of down thrust and TONS of right thrust
welded into it: like 1" in each direction over the length of the crank.
The angle would be arctan(1/24) . This looked so far out that spools were fabricated
and used to shim the motor back until it had "a little" right thrust and
"a little" down thrust.
On takeoff, a pronounced and uncomfortable tendency to turn left was observed which
required a constant input of 1/2 right rudder at cruise settings and 3/4
right rudder at full power and climb speed. To let up on the rudder would invite
a rapid yaw induced roll to the left. This kept me making almost all the
turns into the rudder (to the right for those of you in Rio Linda). The aircraft
is equipped with the highly calibrated Johnson wind vane type of airspeed
indicator and it showed about 35-40 mph in the climb and about 55-60 flat out.
The engine rpm in a moderate climb was 2100 indicated and the flat out rpm
in level flight was 2220 rpm. The tach has not been calibrated. The rpms sounded
right for 2150 or so in cruise and 2300 rpm (the correct number we want)
level flat out. The left turning tendency is mitigated when power is brought
back to idle. This fact identifies the problem to be a deficiency of right thrust
at the motor mount and/or left offset of the vertical stabiliser. The aircraft
flew well in the 1900 rpm range. I did not feel that much was gained by
running the power up above 2100 rpm.
Anyway, Greg and Dale's initial fix for this vicious left turning tendency will
be first to offest the vertical stabiliser to the left to the maximum degree
we can move it which is about 5/8" at the leading edge of the vertical stab.
This fix will be instituted prior to the next flight. Then the spool spacer on
the motor mount will be adjusted to take out the rest of the left turning tendency
that we find remaining. Those of you still building, plan to allow for
adjustment at the vertical stabiliser leading edge, a little to the right and
a whole lot to the left.
The A-65 equipped Piet is said to have increased vertical surface forward of the
CG which offsets vertical surface aft of the CG. This is destabilizing in the
vertical axis and appeares to be present with the aircraft reluctant to return
to straight ahead after a yaw is induced. I will investigate this characteristic
after the aircraf tis trimmed for hands and feet free flight. I would
recommend that future Piet builders who plan to use an A-65 increase the size
of their vertical stabilizer to help offset the increased vertical area forward
of the CG with the A-65 installations. A little extra way aft has quite an
effect.....
Another tendency the ship displayed was a severe nosedropping tendency. This required
a tiring constant pull on the stick of more than 6 lbs or so. Lettin
go of the stick would hang me on the straps as the nose pitched over.
This could be attributed to engine downthrust or to aerodynamics and needed further
investigation. I found that the pull on the stick was independent of thrust
produced. It is an aerodynamic issue that needs to be cured by either lowering
the leading edge of the horizontal stabiliser or raising its trailing edge.
This is difficult to do in practise as the Vi Kapler rudder hinges are reluctant
to move up or down the rudder spar. Again, current builders, allow for
the ability to raise or lower the leading edge of the horizontal stab by using
shims at the forward attach point only. You may also need a space to exist
between the bottom of the vertical stabilser and the centerline of the horizontal
stab to allow for a slot where vertical positioning of the horizontal stab
can be made. Just give some thought as to how you will allow the leading edge
to be raised or lowered 1/2" or maybe even more after the ship is asssembled.
Knowing that we had 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment, we removed
40 lbs of it and that relieved maybe 1/4 of the 6 lb pull on the stick. Greg
was concerned that would put the ship aft of the arbitrary CG aft limit. However,
poweroff stalls were performed both with 100 lbs and 60 lbs of ballast
and in both cases the ship had no difficulty in lowering the nose to unstalled
flight upon the slightest easing of aft stick pressure. When the stick was
held full aft, gingerly use of the rudder could hold the ship in a falling leaf
but you had to stay right on it with a good horizon.
There was also a left wing heaviness that was mostly mitigated by shortening the
left front strut by 1-1/2 turns and lengthening the right front strut by the
same amount.
As test flights go, the ship was moderately difficult to fly as it needed continuous
substantial input in all three axes, gobs of right rudder, a lot of aft
stick, and a bit of right stick. I tried taking pictures but gave up after three
because I could not take pictures and fly at the same time.
We will work through each item until the ship flies properly. Ideas, comments,
and insights are welcome.
Chris
Message 6
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d="scan'208,217"; a="316763984:sNHT32480664"
"Flitzer" <Flitzer-Builders@yahoogroups.com>,
"Alan James" <gbucojames@hotmail.com>,
"Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com>,
"Paul Shenton" <paul@pjshenton.go-plus.net>,
"Steve Bryan" <steve.bryan@apracing.co.uk>,
"Peter Denny" <peter.denny@mpls.k12.mn.us>,
"Norm Tesmar" <Normtesmar@aol.com>,
"Dan Carroll" <ecarroll@cpinternet.com>, "Greg" <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>,
"Dale Johnson" <ddjohn@earthlink.net>,
"Gary Steadman" <gary.steadman@flitzer-aero.com>
| Subject: | more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report |
Greg likes to underestimate the situation...
The first flight report of the Pietenpol is as follows:
2:40 was flown in five flights this morning and afternoon. Wind was 1/2 to full
quartering right headwind at a steady 10 kts. Field conditions were dry grass.
Location was Stanton Field, near Northfield, Minnesota. The ship has spoked
motorcycle wheels and tyres rolling on bronze bushings with no brakes and
a tail skid. A straight axle and wrapped bungies provided suspension. The first
flight was 45 minutes, second flight was about 20 minutes, third flight was
about 25 minutes, fourth flight was 25 minutes and the fifth flight was 45 minutes.
A few years ago I wrote a long dissertation on how to select the proper axle location
with the 1929 style wooden gear legs installed on the long "Corvair" fuselage.
I was right on the money in the analysis because at the aft CG loading
that we had, the ship would perform flawlessly on the grass. Travelling 90
degrees to the 10 knot wind, I could turn into the wind by stick aft, windward
rudder, and a burst of power and I could turn away from the wind by stick forward,
lee rudder, and a burst of power. I was comfortable taxiing next to buildings
and other aircraft with very little practice.
I weigh 220 lbs and Greg computed that we needed 100 lbs of ballast in the forward
bag compartment (aft of firewall above passenger's feet) to get loaded CG
at .5" forward of arbitrary aft CG limit (greg will have to give you the datum
and the CG range, etc.)
The ship is powered by an A-65 freshly overhauled with a homemade wood prop that
was made using a duplicating machine copying an old Sensenich W72C42 blade from
about 50 years ago.
The motor mount as originally made had TONS of down thrust and TONS of right thrust
welded into it: like 1" in each direction over the length of the crank.
The angle would be arctan(1/24) . This looked so far out that spools were fabricated
and used to shim the motor back until it had "a little" right thrust and
"a little" down thrust.
On takeoff, a pronounced and uncomfortable tendency to turn left was observed which
required a constant input of 1/2 right rudder at cruise settings and 3/4
right rudder at full power and climb speed. To let up on the rudder would invite
a rapid yaw induced roll to the left. This kept me making almost all the
turns into the rudder (to the right for those of you in Rio Linda). The aircraft
is equipped with the highly calibrated Johnson wind vane type of airspeed
indicator and it showed about 35-40 mph in the climb and about 55-60 flat out.
The engine rpm in a moderate climb was 2100 indicated and the flat out rpm
in level flight was 2220 rpm. The tach has not been calibrated. The rpms sounded
right for 2150 or so in cruise and 2300 rpm (the correct number we want)
level flat out. The left turning tendency is mitigated when power is brought
back to idle. This fact identifies the problem to be a deficiency of right thrust
at the motor mount and/or left offset of the vertical stabiliser. The aircraft
flew well in the 1900 rpm range. I did not feel that much was gained by
running the power up above 2100 rpm.
Anyway, Greg and Dale's initial fix for this vicious left turning tendency will
be first to offest the vertical stabiliser to the left to the maximum degree
we can move it which is about 5/8" at the leading edge of the vertical stab.
This fix will be instituted prior to the next flight. Then the spool spacer on
the motor mount will be adjusted to take out the rest of the left turning tendency
that we find remaining. Those of you still building, plan to allow for
adjustment at the vertical stabiliser leading edge, a little to the right and
a whole lot to the left.
The A-65 equipped Piet is said to have increased vertical surface forward of the
CG which offsets vertical surface aft of the CG. This is destabilizing in the
vertical axis and appeares to be present with the aircraft reluctant to return
to straight ahead after a yaw is induced. I will investigate this characteristic
after the aircraf tis trimmed for hands and feet free flight. I would
recommend that future Piet builders who plan to use an A-65 increase the size
of their vertical stabilizer to help offset the increased vertical area forward
of the CG with the A-65 installations. A little extra way aft has quite an
effect.....
Another tendency the ship displayed was a severe nosedropping tendency. This required
a tiring constant pull on the stick of more than 6 lbs or so. Lettin
go of the stick would hang me on the straps as the nose pitched over.
This could be attributed to engine downthrust or to aerodynamics and needed further
investigation. I found that the pull on the stick was independent of thrust
produced. It is an aerodynamic issue that needs to be cured by either lowering
the leading edge of the horizontal stabiliser or raising its trailing edge.
This is difficult to do in practise as the Vi Kapler rudder hinges are reluctant
to move up or down the rudder spar. Again, current builders, allow for
the ability to raise or lower the leading edge of the horizontal stab by using
shims at the forward attach point only. You may also need a space to exist
between the bottom of the vertical stabilser and the centerline of the horizontal
stab to allow for a slot where vertical positioning of the horizontal stab
can be made. Just give some thought as to how you will allow the leading edge
to be raised or lowered 1/2" or maybe even more after the ship is asssembled.
Knowing that we had 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment, we removed
40 lbs of it and that relieved maybe 1/4 of the 6 lb pull on the stick. Greg
was concerned that would put the ship aft of the arbitrary CG aft limit. However,
poweroff stalls were performed both with 100 lbs and 60 lbs of ballast
and in both cases the ship had no difficulty in lowering the nose to unstalled
flight upon the slightest easing of aft stick pressure. When the stick was
held full aft, gingerly use of the rudder could hold the ship in a falling leaf
but you had to stay right on it with a good horizon.
There was also a left wing heaviness that was mostly mitigated by shortening the
left front strut by 1-1/2 turns and lengthening the right front strut by the
same amount.
As test flights go, the ship was moderately difficult to fly as it needed continuous
substantial input in all three axes, gobs of right rudder, a lot of aft
stick, and a bit of right stick. I tried taking pictures but gave up after three
because I could not take pictures and fly at the same time.
We will work through each item until the ship flies properly. Ideas, comments,
and insights are welcome.
Chris
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rear lower seatbelt attach advice |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gene Hubbard <enhubbard@sbcglobal.net>
Rick,
It's one of the things that I worried about for a long time too. No
real suggestions on the plans. I glued (T-88) a piece of longeron
material above the real longeron behind the seat and mounted a 1 x .090
steel strap to that. I think I used two AN4 bolts with flat heads and
Tinnerman washers. I bent a tab on the front of the strap for the 5/16"
hole to hold the seat belt tab. I also put a hole in the back of the
strap for a cable to the tailpost, but haven't run the cable (and may
never). I didn't feel good about drilling through the longeron itself,
but since the Piet has about twice the beef in the longerons as any
comperable plane, I wouldn't expect it to be a problem.
I'm finally running out of excuses not to cover mine. The last
remaining excuses have to do with how much electrical wiring to do (a la
Bengalis) before covering it all over. I finally have to make decisions
about starter, generator, avionics, and so forth.
Gene Hubbard
San Diego
Rick Holland wrote:
> Have gone through the archieves looking for advice on rear lower
> seatbelt attachment and would like some advice. Sounds like most
> people just drill a 5/16" hole in the bottom longerons with 1/8" ply
> on both sides. Just want to make sure I am not weakening the longerons
> with these big holes. Also, which is better, drilling the holes
> horizontal or vertical? I believe Mike Cuy mentioned on his video that
> he just glued a and gusseted a block to the longerons and bolted the
> belts to that.
>
> Figured I would consult the GN-1 plans for some guidance and couldn't
> find a thing about it.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Rick Holland
Message 8
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Fellows,
Can anyone break down the individual part numbers for the AN 130-167 turnbuckle?
Alan
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