---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/25/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:11 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Peter W Johnson) 2. 06:05 AM - Re: Turnbuckles (Alan Lyscars) 3. 06:45 AM - Gene's seat belt attach advice (Michael D Cuy) 4. 09:27 AM - Re: Spars (TRichmo9@aol.com) 5. 09:32 AM - plans (TRichmo9@aol.com) 6. 09:41 AM - Re: Spars (Dave Esslinger) 7. 10:53 AM - Re: plans (Lynn Knoll) 8. 12:29 PM - Re: plans (TRichmo9@aol.com) 9. 12:36 PM - plans (TRichmo9@aol.com) 10. 12:55 PM - Re: plans (Robert Gow) 11. 01:14 PM - Re: plans (Chris Cosentino) 12. 01:28 PM - Re: plans (Mike McCarty) 13. 02:37 PM - Re: plans (Alan Lyscars) 14. 03:26 PM - plans (TRichmo9@aol.com) 15. 03:26 PM - Re: plans (TRichmo9@aol.com) 16. 03:28 PM - Fw: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight (Greg Bacon) 17. 04:05 PM - Re: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report (Christian Bobka) 18. 04:36 PM - Re: plans (VAHOWDY@aol.com) 19. 06:05 PM - Re: Spars (Galen Hutcheson) 20. 07:42 PM - Pitch Trimming () 21. 08:35 PM - Re: Pitch Trimming (TRichmo9@aol.com) 22. 09:48 PM - Re: Pitch Trimming (Gene Hubbard) 23. 09:58 PM - Re: Pitch Trimming (Rcaprd@aol.com) 24. 10:15 PM - Re: Pitch Trimming (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:11:10 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Alan, Check out http://www.cpc-world.com >Aircraft Systems > Controls and Brakes. I did a complete list of all the items I needed for my control parts order. It may be of some help. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Lyscars Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Fellows, Can anyone break down the individual part numbers for the AN 130-167 turnbuckle? Alan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:43 AM PST US From: "Alan Lyscars" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Turnbuckles Peter, Thanks for that Tip 'O The Day. Alan Alan, Check out http://www.cpc-world.com >Aircraft Systems > Controls and Brakes. I did a complete list of all the items I needed for my control parts order. It may be of some help. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi, Australia http://www.cpc-world.com Fellows, Can anyone break down the individual part numbers for the AN 130-167 turnbuckle? Alan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:13 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gene's seat belt attach advice 96be47@mail.gmail.com> 1.96 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Rick---though you've already gotten some very good input on your question, if it is any comfort, I did my attach anchor method just like Gene Hubbard although used a poplar wood block about 2"x 3" glued above the lower longeron with 1/8" piece of ply glued over that block and the longeron, drilled thru and anchored the JC Whitney airline-type buckles to that. I can tell you that after encountering severe hot weather turbulence around Chicago enroute to Wisconsin that they held me fine thru what I'm sure was negative g turbulence. The only problem I really had was keeping my hand gripped to the stick. Solution---just grab the stick a little lower:) Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:12 AM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars In a message dated 5/16/05 6:31:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wacopitts@yahoo.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Dave, I am building box-like spars. They will have 1/2" by 1" spruce top and bottom beams with a 1/8" birch plywood sandwich. They will have 1/2" by 1" spruce diagonals and uprights at each rib location (the diagonals will be similar to the pattern used in the ribs). My spars will be 3/4" wide by 4 1/4" high when completed. The will be lighter but should be as strong as solid routed spars. I have built some test sections and I am very impressed with the strength of this type of spar. The three foot center section just allows you to have a larger fuel tank in the upper wing. I see no reason you can't build a 1" wide box-spar. Perhaps you could build a test section and evaluate it for strength. Doc > > > > Guys, I'm getting ready to start my wings and I'm > looking for suggestions. > > My spars are built with a one inch wide opening > per the plans but the > > supplemental plans for the 3 piece wing call for > 3/4" spar material. I see > > no reason to not use 1" material except the price. > Aircraft Spruce wants > > about 600.00 for the spar material and before I > fork out that kind of > > money > > I wanted to see if that's the best way to go. It > seems like a shame to pay > > for all that spruce and then route almost half of > it out. Has anyone done > > a > > laminated plywood spar? Seems like it would > certainly be strong enough. > > Also, is there any advantage/disadvantage to > widening the center section? > > Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks, Dave > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release > Date: 2/14/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail i copyed the plans and they look pretty good they will cost you 11 dollars if you want a set ,my address is rt2 box 263 cleveland oklahoma 74020 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:13 AM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans if anyone wants a set of the plans i have and i havent e mailed you they are 11 dollars. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:21 AM PST US From: "Dave Esslinger" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars Doc, Thanks for the info. I'm leaning toward the built up spar you described. I know that's how they build them in the Quickie's. How did you do your testing? Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of TRichmo9@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:27 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars In a message dated 5/16/05 6:31:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time, wacopitts@yahoo.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Dave, I am building box-like spars. They will have 1/2" by 1" spruce top and bottom beams with a 1/8" birch plywood sandwich. They will have 1/2" by 1" spruce diagonals and uprights at each rib location (the diagonals will be similar to the pattern used in the ribs). My spars will be 3/4" wide by 4 1/4" high when completed. The will be lighter but should be as strong as solid routed spars. I have built some test sections and I am very impressed with the strength of this type of spar. The three foot center section just allows you to have a larger fuel tank in the upper wing. I see no reason you can't build a 1" wide box-spar. Perhaps you could build a test section and evaluate it for strength. Doc > > > > Guys, I'm getting ready to start my wings and I'm > looking for suggestions. > > My spars are built with a one inch wide opening > per the plans but the > > supplemental plans for the 3 piece wing call for > 3/4" spar material. I see > > no reason to not use 1" material except the price. > Aircraft Spruce wants > > about 600.00 for the spar material and before I > fork out that kind of > > money > > I wanted to see if that's the best way to go. It > seems like a shame to pay > > for all that spruce and then route almost half of > it out. Has anyone done > > a > > laminated plywood spar? Seems like it would > certainly be strong enough. > > Also, is there any advantage/disadvantage to > widening the center section? > > Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks, Dave > > --- > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Date: 2/14/2005 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail =========================e the es Day --> ====================================================== i copyed the plans and they look pretty good they will cost you 11 dollars if you want a set ,my address is rt2 box 263 cleveland oklahoma 74020 --- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:48 AM PST US From: "Lynn Knoll" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans Please explain how you can legally sell a set of Piet plans for $11.00 ----- Original Message ----- From: TRichmo9@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans if anyone wants a set of the plans i have and i havent e mailed you they are 11 dollars. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:08 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans In a message dated 5/25/05 1:35:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, dknoll@cox.net writes: Please explain how you can legally sell a set of Piet plans for $11.00 ----- Original Message ----- From: _TRichmo9@aol.com_ (mailto:TRichmo9@aol.com) Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans if anyone wants a set of the plans i have and i havent e mailed you they are 11 dollars. number one theres no name or trademark of any kind on these drawings ,number 2 im not selling anything for profit that's my cost to copy and mail them , im just trying to help some guys on the list who want them, as a matter of fact no where on them does it say they are pietenpol plans and it does say, this information is to be used for research data only no aircraft construction can take place using this information as shown . tom ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:58 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans well im getting emails on the legal end of selling the plans i have im not selling them . but i did get an email from someone who offered to scan them and put them on a disc for me ,if you read this email me so we can get it done then i can email the drawings to everyone free. tom ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:52 PM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: plans Same thing as selling them. The are not your intellectual property to distribute. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of TRichmo9@aol.com Sent: May 25, 2005 3:37 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans well im getting emails on the legal end of selling the plans i have im not selling them . but i did get an email from someone who offered to scan them and put them on a disc for me ,if you read this email me so we can get it done then i can email the drawings to everyone free. tom ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:30 PM PST US From: Chris Cosentino Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Chris Cosentino Are these the plans from this magazine (Sport Aviation)?: Article: I Beam/Solid Wing Spar Design Magazine: SA1961 April - pgs 38 If so, you can order them from EAA. Wednesday, May 25, 2005, 3:36:44 PM, TRichmo9@aol.com wrote: Tac> well im getting emails on the legal end of selling the Tac> plans i have im not selling them . but i did get an email from Tac> someone who offered to scan them and put them on a disc for me Tac> ,if you read this email me so we can get it done then i can Tac> email the drawings to everyone Tac> free. tom ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:30 PM PST US From: "Mike McCarty" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans I think a few people are confused. Tom wasn't offering up a full set of Piet plans, but a copy of plans for a box spar and quick connects. -Mac ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn Knoll To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans Please explain how you can legally sell a set of Piet plans for $11.00 ----- Original Message ----- From: TRichmo9@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans if anyone wants a set of the plans i have and i havent e mailed you they are 11 dollars. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:15 PM PST US From: "Alan Lyscars" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans Tom, I'd like a set. Please send me mailing info. Alan Portland, Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: TRichmo9@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 12:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans if anyone wants a set of the plans i have and i havent e mailed you they are 11 dollars. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:01 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans im going out in the morning and getting a new scanner, ill scan these drawings off in sections and email them out tom ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:01 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans In a message dated 5/25/05 3:36:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rgow@avionicsdesign.ca writes: Same thing as selling them. The are not your intellectual property to distribute. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: plans well im getting emails on the legal end of selling the plans i have im not selling them . but i did get an email from someone who offered to scan them and put them on a disc for me ,if you read this email me so we can get it done then i can email the drawings to everyone free. tohave it your way i will give them away then and everyone i give them to can give someone else a set and we will still all have them. except for you ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:22 PM PST US From: Greg Bacon report Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report Chris, Thanks for sharing the first flight with us. I almost felt like I was in the cockpit with you. Great job! Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO www.g-c.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka Subject: Pietenpol-List: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report Greg likes to underestimate the situation... The first flight report of the Pietenpol is as follows: 2:40 was flown in five flights this morning and afternoon. Wind was 1/2 to full quartering right headwind at a steady 10 kts. Field conditions were dry grass. Location was Stanton Field, near Northfield, Minnesota. The ship has spoked motorcycle wheels and tyres rolling on bronze bushings with no brakes and a tail skid. A straight axle and wrapped bungies provided suspension. The first flight was 45 minutes, second flight was about 20 minutes, third flight was about 25 minutes, fourth flight was 25 minutes and the fifth flight was 45 minutes. A few years ago I wrote a long dissertation on how to select the proper axle location with the 1929 style wooden gear legs installed on the long "Corvair" fuselage. I was right on the money in the analysis because at the aft CG loading that we had, the ship would perform flawlessly on the grass. Travelling 90 degrees to the 10 knot wind, I could turn into the wind by stick aft, windward rudder, and a burst of power and I could turn away from the wind by stick forward, lee rudder, and a burst of power. I was comfortable taxiing next to buildings and other aircraft with very little practice. I weigh 220 lbs and Greg computed that we needed 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment (aft of firewall above passenger's feet) to get loaded CG at .5" forward of arbitrary aft CG limit (greg will have to give you the datum and the CG range, etc.) The ship is powered by an A-65 freshly overhauled with a homemade wood prop that was made using a duplicating machine copying an old Sensenich W72C42 blade from about 50 years ago. The motor mount as originally made had TONS of down thrust and TONS of right thrust welded into it: like 1" in each direction over the length of the crank. The angle would be arctan(1/24) . This looked so far out that spools were fabricated and used to shim the motor back until it had "a little" right thrust and "a little" down thrust. On takeoff, a pronounced and uncomfortable tendency to turn left was observed which required a constant input of 1/2 right rudder at cruise settings and 3/4 right rudder at full power and climb speed. To let up on the rudder would invite a rapid yaw induced roll to the left. This kept me making almost all the turns into the rudder (to the right for those of you in Rio Linda). The aircraft is equipped with the highly calibrated Johnson wind vane type of airspeed indicator and it showed about 35-40 mph in the climb and about 55-60 flat out. The engine rpm in a moderate climb was 2100 indicated and the flat out rpm in level flight was 2220 rpm. The tach has not been calibrated. The rpms sounded right for 2150 or so in cruise and 2300 rpm (the correct number we want) level flat out. The left turning tendency is mitigated when power is brought back to idle. This fact identifies the problem to be a deficiency of right thrust at the motor mount and/or left offset of the vertical stabiliser. The aircraft flew well in the 1900 rpm range. I did not feel that much was gained by running the power up above 2100 rpm. Anyway, Greg and Dale's initial fix for this vicious left turning tendency will be first to offest the vertical stabiliser to the left to the maximum degree we can move it which is about 5/8" at the leading edge of the vertical stab. This fix will be instituted prior to the next flight. Then the spool spacer on the motor mount will be adjusted to take out the rest of the left turning tendency that we find remaining. Those of you still building, plan to allow for adjustment at the vertical stabiliser leading edge, a little to the right and a whole lot to the left. The A-65 equipped Piet is said to have increased vertical surface forward of the CG which offsets vertical surface aft of the CG. This is destabilizing in the vertical axis and appeares to be present with the aircraft reluctant to return to straight ahead after a yaw is induced. I will investigate this characteristic after the aircraf tis trimmed for hands and feet free flight. I would recommend that future Piet builders who plan to use an A-65 increase the size of their vertical stabilizer to help offset the increased vertical area forward of the CG with the A-65 installations. A little extra way aft has quite an effect..... Another tendency the ship displayed was a severe nosedropping tendency. This required a tiring constant pull on the stick of more than 6 lbs or so. Lettin go of the stick would hang me on the straps as the nose pitched over. This could be attributed to engine downthrust or to aerodynamics and needed further investigation. I found that the pull on the stick was independent of thrust produced. It is an aerodynamic issue that needs to be cured by either lowering the leading edge of the horizontal stabiliser or raising its trailing edge. This is difficult to do in practise as the Vi Kapler rudder hinges are reluctant to move up or down the rudder spar. Again, current builders, allow for the ability to raise or lower the leading edge of the horizontal stab by using shims at the forward attach point only. You may also need a space to exist between the bottom of the vertical stabilser and the centerline of the horizontal stab to allow for a slot where vertical positioning of the horizontal stab can be made. Just give some thought as to how you will allow the leading edge to be raised or lowered 1/2" or maybe even more after the ship is asssembled. Knowing that we had 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment, we removed 40 lbs of it and that relieved maybe 1/4 of the 6 lb pull on the stick. Greg was concerned that would put the ship aft of the arbitrary CG aft limit. However, poweroff stalls were performed both with 100 lbs and 60 lbs of ballast and in both cases the ship had no difficulty in lowering the nose to unstalled flight upon the slightest easing of aft stick pressure. When the stick was held full aft, gingerly use of the rudder could hold the ship in a falling leaf but you had to stay right on it with a good horizon. There was also a left wing heaviness that was mostly mitigated by shortening the left front strut by 1-1/2 turns and lengthening the right front strut by the same amount. As test flights go, the ship was moderately difficult to fly as it needed continuous substantial input in all three axes, gobs of right rudder, a lot of aft stick, and a bit of right stick. I tried taking pictures but gave up after three because I could not take pictures and fly at the same time. We will work through each item until the ship flies properly. Ideas, comments, and insights are welcome. Chris ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:28 PM PST US d="scan'208,217"; a="1122124382:sNHT29341168" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report Greg and everyone else, I had meant to write, "There was also a left wing heaviness that was mostly mitigated by shortening the left rear strut by 1-1/2 turns and lengthening the right rear strut by the same amount." I had my struts mixed up on paper buyt not in my feeble mind. Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Bacon To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:27 PM Subject: Fw: Pietenpol-List: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report Chris, Thanks for sharing the first flight with us. I almost felt like I was in the cockpit with you. Great job! Greg Bacon Prairie Home, MO www.g-c.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: Pietenpol ; Flitzer ; Alan James ; Pete Gavin ; Paul Shenton ; Steve Bryan ; Peter Denny ; Norm Tesmar ; Dan Carroll ; Greg ; Dale Johnson ; Gary Steadman Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 2:02 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: more than what greg said: Pietenpol first flight report Greg likes to underestimate the situation... The first flight report of the Pietenpol is as follows: 2:40 was flown in five flights this morning and afternoon. Wind was 1/2 to full quartering right headwind at a steady 10 kts. Field conditions were dry grass. Location was Stanton Field, near Northfield, Minnesota. The ship has spoked motorcycle wheels and tyres rolling on bronze bushings with no brakes and a tail skid. A straight axle and wrapped bungies provided suspension. The first flight was 45 minutes, second flight was about 20 minutes, third flight was about 25 minutes, fourth flight was 25 minutes and the fifth flight was 45 minutes. A few years ago I wrote a long dissertation on how to select the proper axle location with the 1929 style wooden gear legs installed on the long "Corvair" fuselage. I was right on the money in the analysis because at the aft CG loading that we had, the ship would perform flawlessly on the grass. Travelling 90 degrees to the 10 knot wind, I could turn into the wind by stick aft, windward rudder, and a burst of power and I could turn away from the wind by stick forward, lee rudder, and a burst of power. I was comfortable taxiing next to buildings and other aircraft with very little practice. I weigh 220 lbs and Greg computed that we needed 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment (aft of firewall above passenger's feet) to get loaded CG at .5" forward of arbitrary aft CG limit (greg will have to give you the datum and the CG range, etc.) The ship is powered by an A-65 freshly overhauled with a homemade wood prop that was made using a duplicating machine copying an old Sensenich W72C42 blade from about 50 years ago. The motor mount as originally made had TONS of down thrust and TONS of right thrust welded into it: like 1" in each direction over the length of the crank. The angle would be arctan(1/24) . This looked so far out that spools were fabricated and used to shim the motor back until it had "a little" right thrust and "a little" down thrust. On takeoff, a pronounced and uncomfortable tendency to turn left was observed which required a constant input of 1/2 right rudder at cruise settings and 3/4 right rudder at full power and climb speed. To let up on the rudder would invite a rapid yaw induced roll to the left. This kept me making almost all the turns into the rudder (to the right for those of you in Rio Linda). The aircraft is equipped with the highly calibrated Johnson wind vane type of airspeed indicator and it showed about 35-40 mph in the climb and about 55-60 flat out. The engine rpm in a moderate climb was 2100 indicated and the flat out rpm in level flight was 2220 rpm. The tach has not been calibrated. The rpms sounded right for 2150 or so in cruise and 2300 rpm (the correct number we want) level flat out. The left turning tendency is mitigated when power is brought back to idle. This fact identifies the problem to be a deficiency of right thrust at the motor mount and/or left offset of the vertical stabiliser. The aircraft flew well in the 1900 rpm range. I did not feel that much was gained by running the power up above 2100 rpm. Anyway, Greg and Dale's initial fix for this vicious left turning tendency will be first to offest the vertical stabiliser to the left to the maximum degree we can move it which is about 5/8" at the leading edge of the vertical stab. This fix will be instituted prior to the next flight. Then the spool spacer on the motor mount will be adjusted to take out the rest of the left turning tendency that we find remaining. Those of you still building, plan to allow for adjustment at the vertical stabiliser leading edge, a little to the right and a whole lot to the left. The A-65 equipped Piet is said to have increased vertical surface forward of the CG which offsets vertical surface aft of the CG. This is destabilizing in the vertical axis and appeares to be present with the aircraft reluctant to return to straight ahead after a yaw is induced. I will investigate this characteristic after the aircraf tis trimmed for hands and feet free flight. I would recommend that future Piet builders who plan to use an A-65 increase the size of their vertical stabilizer to help offset the increased vertical area forward of the CG with the A-65 installations. A little extra way aft has quite an effect..... Another tendency the ship displayed was a severe nosedropping tendency. This required a tiring constant pull on the stick of more than 6 lbs or so. Lettin go of the stick would hang me on the straps as the nose pitched over. This could be attributed to engine downthrust or to aerodynamics and needed further investigation. I found that the pull on the stick was independent of thrust produced. It is an aerodynamic issue that needs to be cured by either lowering the leading edge of the horizontal stabiliser or raising its trailing edge. This is difficult to do in practise as the Vi Kapler rudder hinges are reluctant to move up or down the rudder spar. Again, current builders, allow for the ability to raise or lower the leading edge of the horizontal stab by using shims at the forward attach point only. You may also need a space to exist between the bottom of the vertical stabilser and the centerline of the horizontal stab to allow for a slot where vertical positioning of the horizontal stab can be made. Just give some thought as to how you will allow the leading edge to be raised or lowered 1/2" or maybe even more after the ship is asssembled. Knowing that we had 100 lbs of ballast in the forward bag compartment, we removed 40 lbs of it and that relieved maybe 1/4 of the 6 lb pull on the stick. Greg was concerned that would put the ship aft of the arbitrary CG aft limit. However, poweroff stalls were performed both with 100 lbs and 60 lbs of ballast and in both cases the ship had no difficulty in lowering the nose to unstalled flight upon the slightest easing of aft stick pressure. When the stick was held full aft, gingerly use of the rudder could hold the ship in a falling leaf but you had to stay right on it with a good horizon. There was also a left wing heaviness that was mostly mitigated by shortening the left front strut by 1-1/2 turns and lengthening the right front strut by the same amount. As test flights go, the ship was moderately difficult to fly as it needed continuous substantial input in all three axes, gobs of right rudder, a lot of aft stick, and a bit of right stick. I tried taking pictures but gave up after three because I could not take pictures and fly at the same time. We will work through each item until the ship flies properly. Ideas, comments, and insights are welcome. Chris ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:00 PM PST US From: VAHOWDY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: plans The Copyright has long run out on the Aircamper. Note there is on copyright on the magizines the EAA puts out. Anyone can sale them for what they can. Thats how someone can share them. Now new work is another story. Howdy ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:23 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=3w1rbDLaRFKKuk36hOVWnzvN5E0oAbSdirXSVJNmqUGFUIRGKEp30yuj8JXOMhfbbRjOaxDKHm/FA4vXMqdFBQMhQaW1tMvu4KcYnCv7OobD/TOMvVse14fdDBjI2SDH8nJr1PLxuW1LE1KIWrMg991/rpxyNxzhXe/Fih4Dm/I= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Dave, I'm still in the process of testing (need more weights to complete the tests). My wings will have a 5' span between struts (2-bay biplane-JN-4 design). I made an "A" frame with the 5' section being the cross member and just started attaching weights to the center point (CG) of the spar. Up to 100lbs and no problems. I will test them in sheer (flat side down) to test the drag/anti-drag strength. The weights I'm using came from a weight machine I bought salvage from our local metal scrap yard. I attach a 1/8" cable to the center of the spar/beam with a braided loop on both ends and hang the weights with a "come-along". The weights have a piece of cable threaded through them to hold them together. These type weights give me a fairly accurate measurement of the amount of weight I am using. The Piet spars are longer spans, but you should be able to test them the same way. Best wishes, Doc --- Dave Esslinger wrote: > Doc, Thanks for the info. I'm leaning toward the > built up spar you > described. I know that's how they build them in the > Quickie's. How did you > do your testing? > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail > =========================e the es Day > --> > ====================================================== > > > > > > > > > > i copyed the plans and they look pretty good they > will cost you 11 dollars > if you want a set ,my address is rt2 box 263 > cleveland oklahoma 74020 > --- > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Date: 2/14/2005 > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:21 PM PST US From: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming NX18235 is displaying a significant nose-down pitching tendency. Approximately 6 pounds of aft stick force is required to maintain level flight. Has anyone corrected a pitching tendency by simply adjusting the forward stabilizer bracing cables? Shimming the stabilizer at this point in the game would require a significant amount of work. Greg Cardinal ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:26 PM PST US From: TRichmo9@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming In a message dated 5/25/05 9:43:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: NX18235 is displaying a significant nose-down pitching tendency. Approximately 6 pounds of aft stick force is required to maintain level flight. Has anyone corrected a pitching tendency by simply adjusting the forward stabilizer bracing cables? Shimming the stabilizer at this point in the game would require a significant amount of work. Greg Cardinal greg i think the work on your plane is awsome the seats are a work of art and the wood work is top notch . tom ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:14 PM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming Another standard approach is to put a fixed trim tab on the elevator. Bend the tab down to make the elevator go up and relieve the stick force. I'm not sure I could deal with the aesthetics of a warped stabilizer. But that might just be me. I wonder how much it would take... Gene gcardinal@mn.rr.com wrote: > NX18235 is displaying a significant nose-down pitching tendency. > Approximately 6 pounds of aft stick force is required to maintain > level flight. > Has anyone corrected a pitching tendency by simply adjusting the > forward stabilizer bracing cables? > > Shimming the stabilizer at this point in the game would require a > significant amount of work. > > Greg Cardinal ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:18 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming In a message dated 5/25/2005 9:43:19 PM Central Standard Time, gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: NX18235 is displaying a significant nose-down pitching tendency. Approximately 6 pounds of aft stick force is required to maintain level flight. Has anyone corrected a pitching tendency by simply adjusting the forward stabilizer bracing cables? Shimming the stabilizer at this point in the game would require a significant amount of work. Greg Cardinal Greg, A big Congratulations to you and Dale for the completion of your plane !! And Chris B. for doing the first flights, with a very informative report of the first flights. Adjusting the leading edge of the horiz stab down, does indeed help the nose down pitch tendency. I adjusted mine down on three different occasions, lengthening the top turnbuckles by 2 turns, and tightening the bottom ones by 2 turns. Each time it helped, but didn't cure it. Standing in front of the plane, you could see the leading edge of the stab, how it curved down on each side. I finally added a fixed trim tab on the elevators (flippers). I made it from balsa wood, blending the trailing edge of the flippers into the trim tabs. Each is about 5" long, and have a chord of about 2" and angled down about 10=BA. Initially, I tested the positon of the trim tab holding it on with duct tape. When I was satisfied with the placement, I used fabric & paint for the final install. With these trim tabs, I was able to remove all the leading edge down adjustments of the horiz stab, and now the stab is straight. I could take some pictures of it if you're interested. I believe some of the pitch down tendency when you pull power, can be attributed to the drag of the landing gear. Does it climb with full power,=20and no back pressure on the stick ? I would also suggest you check the symatry again, as well as wing washout - doesn't take much time. Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS NX770CG Short Fuselage, Continental A65, engine mount with 1/8" right thrust and plans amount of down thrust - built 8" longer than plans (with heavier wall tubing), no ballast, no vertical stab offset, 630 lbs. empty weight. I weigh 210 lbs ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:44 PM PST US d="scan'208,217"; a="947521531:sNHT47923876" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming Chuck, It requires the same back pressure on the stick whether power at full or at idle and at all airspeeds (hi and low alpha), both with full or idle power. In other words, the pitchdown tendency is independent of the power and the angle of attack of the wing. Greg and Dick Navratil had a conference call this evening and we determined that we are operation at very close to the same CG which is about 19-20" aft of the leading edge of the wing. What about with your ship? Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: Rcaprd@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pitch Trimming In a message dated 5/25/2005 9:43:19 PM Central Standard Time, gcardinal@mn.rr.com writes: NX18235 is displaying a significant nose-down pitching tendency. Approximately 6 pounds of aft stick force is required to maintain level flight. Has anyone corrected a pitching tendency by simply adjusting the forward stabilizer bracing cables? Shimming the stabilizer at this point in the game would require a significant amount of work. Greg Cardinal Greg, A big Congratulations to you and Dale for the completion of your plane !! And Chris B. for doing the first flights, with a very informative report of the first flights. Adjusting the leading edge of the horiz stab down, does indeed help the nose down pitch tendency. I adjusted mine down on three different occasions, lengthening the top turnbuckles by 2 turns, and tightening the bottom ones by 2 turns. Each time it helped, but didn't cure it. Standing in front of the plane, you could see the leading edge of the stab, how it curved down on each side. I finally added a fixed trim tab on the elevators (flippers). I made it from balsa wood, blending the trailing edge of the flippers into the trim tabs. Each is about 5" long, and have a chord of about 2" and angled down about 10=BA. Initially, I tested the positon of the trim tab holding it on with duct tape. When I was satisfied with the placement, I used fabric & paint for the final install. With these trim tabs, I was able to remove all the leading edge down adjustments of the horiz stab, and now the stab is straight. I could take some pictures of it if you're interested. I believe some of the pitch down tendency when you pull power, can be attributed to the drag of the landing gear. Does it climb with full power, and no back pressure on the stick ? I would also suggest you check the symatry again, as well as wing washout - doesn't take much time. Chuck Gantzer Wichita KS NX770CG Short Fuselage, Continental A65, engine mount with 1/8" right thrust and plans amount of down thrust - built 8" longer than plans (with heavier wall tubing), no ballast, no vertical stab offset, 630 lbs. empty weight. I weigh 210 lbs