Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:57 AM - Re: tailskid/brakes/asphalt (Clif Dawson)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 05/25/05 (Phillips, Jack)
3. 06:06 AM - Latex paint for homebuilts (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 09:02 AM - Biplane Fly In (Jim Markle)
5. 11:20 AM - Re: Biplane Fly In (Galen Hutcheson)
6. 12:51 PM - Re: Biplane Fly In (Steve Ruse)
7. 04:50 PM - Re: tailskid/brakes/asphalt (Rcaprd@aol.com)
8. 04:54 PM - Re: Biplane Fly In (Rcaprd@aol.com)
9. 07:42 PM - Re: Latex paint for homebuilts (Dick Navratil)
10. 09:42 PM - EAA (Dick Navratil)
11. 09:53 PM - Second Pilot report (Christian Bobka)
12. 10:07 PM - Re: EAA (Christian Bobka)
13. 10:07 PM - Second Flight Report Addendum (Christian Bobka)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: tailskid/brakes/asphalt |
<00f401c5657f$b0186d50$4ca470d1@defaultcomp>
I would think you'd want a material that would wear reasonably well on gritty
tarmac. Rubber probably wouldn't last long. How about UHMW plastic. That's
Ultra High Molecular Weight polyethylene that comes in sheets and blocks.
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c1&p32045&cat3,43576,43581
Or how about a tiny wheel in the middle of the skid. there is a precedent for that
with snow skis that surround the wheel so the plane can be used on snow and
pavement.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Bowen
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tailskid/brakes/asphalt
RE: Brakes in General. On N1033B I have 1941 vintage drum brakes with dual pull
cables on the stick. Been looking at nifty disc brakes and wheels that come
on 2 wheel drive ATV's front axles, has anybody tried these? Suppose one could
find a dead ATV somehere in a junk yard. Secondly, regarding tail wheels,
I've found, if you get off the hard tarmac and taxi in the grass, the tailwheel
assembly is a heck of a good brake, at least in FL sandy grass. With a loaded
wt of about 70 lbs on the tailwheel with my weight in pilot's seat, the
little tailwheel cuts into the grass/sand and requires engine thrust to keep moving.
On hard tarmac, existing brakes do basically nothing. Expect a skid plate
would be like throwing out a sea anchor.
Gordon Bowen
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpolgroup
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 5:17 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: tailskid/brakes/asphalt
I am building a brakeless, skid equipped Piet. But now I'm thinking that sometimes
I might want to be able to use a hardtop runway. I also know this is
almost impossible with a skid, yet i want to do everything I can to save weight
back there.
So my question is this.
what if I put brakes on, but instead of a tailwheel, put a longish
rubber keel on the shoe of the tailskid. Wouldn't this tend to keep the tail
straight, and resist sideskidding as much or more than a tailwheel? I can
then use the brakes and blasting the rudder for steering.
This is all armchair theorizing and I would appreciate any comments from people
who actually have experience to speak from.
Douwe
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 05/25/05 |
I hope it will be July 23-24, since that is when I will be there
(weather permitting)
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Keyes
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 05/25/05
Everyone,
What are the dates on the Brodhead Fly-In this year. I need to make
sure I requested the right days off work.
Thanks,
Matt Keyes
Message 3
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| Subject: | Latex paint for homebuilts |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Carl asks about latex paint (Kirk Huizenga's testing on samples). There are
any number of websites and webpages devoted to different techniques for
using latex paint on fabric. Here's one of many:
http://hammer.prohosting.com/~ragwings/main.html and go to the link that
says "Jerry Bunner's paint method".
One thing I would NOT do, that is mentioned on this page, is to apply "Son
of a Gun" protectant on the paint. Reference Corky's (and others') comments
on the use of silicone products on paint and other surfaces... not a good
idea.
One other latex paint site recommends the use of windshield washer fluid as
a thinner for the latex paint. This fluid contains ammonia and also a small
amount of detergent... and both of those things, along with the Floetrol,
are supposed to help the paint flow into a smooth finish.
The article referenced in the earlier email reached the conclusion that it
is not necessary to use black latex as the first coat for blocking the sun's
UV... just about all the latex house paints of all colors have the same
effect. However, black latex is much easier to cover and hide with lighter
colors than conventional paints if you are dead set on using the black.
Disclaimer: I have no personal experience with these methods or materials.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
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Anyone going to Bartlesville this weekend? Chuck? Doc?
I may have time while I'm in Tulsa this weekend to come on up (sure would like
to!)
Doc, if you come over and want to bring the plywood, I can take it back to Dallas
on Sunday if that might save some mileage for someone.
=93Started=94 my tailwheel training this weekend with some dual time in a BT-15
Vultee (WWII trainer). First time with a radial engine and first time in a tailwheel
plane...it was neat.
JM
Message 5
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s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=mgOeS8BpzNd/nw9641FTdNaRQari+vXH9D131QmrS3eL9tADIgElTLxVwiXmKA0V3BCTq4uGzKyzkR0PawoxUefbsoRFZXmhQ4LlHfcg1fOukpYN9FD5rzHuwt+VOCE1eUBkszdbEO2TVYVQ6AEFOi7VSRa93UpKfA/orQvD1Z8=
;
| Subject: | Re: Biplane Fly In |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
I went to Bartlesville once, in my C-Model Pitts. The
year that they honored Curtiss Pitts. Had a great
time and lots of beautiful biplanes to look at and
drool over. I would like to go, but can't make it
this year, maybe when I get my plane flying. Thanks
for the offer on hauling the plywood, but the only
order I have to ship is up north (my builder buddies
locally bought the rest). Sure would have been nice
though. I appreciate the offer. Have a great weekend
and enjoy the old bipes.
Doc
Do Not Archive
--- Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Anyone going to Bartlesville this weekend? Chuck?
> Doc?
> I may have time while I'm in Tulsa this weekend to
> come on up (sure would like to!)
>
> Doc, if you come over and want to bring the plywood,
> I can take it back to Dallas on Sunday if that might
> save some mileage for someone.
>
> Started my tailwheel training this
weekend with
> some dual time in a BT-15 Vultee (WWII trainer).
> First time with a radial engine and first time in a
> tailwheel plane...it was neat.
>
> JM
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Biplane Fly In |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
I'll be in Minneapolis for a wedding, so I won't be able to make it to
Bartlesville. Wish I could though!
Jim, how did you manage to get some training time in a BT-15! That is great,
what a neat plane...and a round engine, the way God intended airplanes to be
made! That had to be great...are you going to continue training in it?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Do not archive
Quoting Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com>:
> Anyone going to Bartlesville this weekend? Chuck? Doc?
> I may have time while I'm in Tulsa this weekend to come on up (sure
> would like to!)
>
> Doc, if you come over and want to bring the plywood, I can take it
> back to Dallas on Sunday if that might save some mileage for someone.
>
> Started my tailwheel training this weekend with some dual time
> in a BT-15 Vultee (WWII trainer). First time with a radial engine
> and first time in a tailwheel plane...it was neat.
>
> JM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: tailskid/brakes/asphalt |
In a message dated 5/30/2005 8:02:22 PM Central Standard Time,
douweblumberg@earthlink.net writes:
I am building a brakeless, skid equipped Piet. But now I'm thinking that
sometimes I might want to be able to use a hardtop runway. I also know this is
almost impossible with a skid, yet i want to do everything I can to save weight
back there.
So my question is this.
what if I put brakes on, but instead of a tailwheel, put a longish
rubber keel on the shoe of the tailskid. Wouldn't this tend to keep the tail
straight, and resist sideskidding as much or more than a tailwheel? I can
then use the brakes and blasting the rudder for steering.
This is all armchair theorizing and I would appreciate any comments from
people who actually have experience to speak from.
Douwe
Douwe,
Your thoughts on saving weight in the tail are Right On. I originally built
mine with no brakes, and a plans type skid, except made the bottom of the skid
flat steel, without the fin sticking down...that would really gouge the
asphalt. It would be fine, if the plane ONLY used grass. I tried several mods
on
the skid, because it still made tracks in the grass, made marks on the
asphalt...and the scraping noise drowned out the engine !! I once tried a nylon
roller, but it only lasted a couple of flights. It would jam up, and rub a flat
spot. I think a rubber pad, like a piece of an auto tire, wouldn't last
long, and would not resist a cross wind. It still amazes me how well the tail
skid behaves in the grass, yet get it on hard surface and it's like trying to
drive on wet ice, especially without brakes. Even a blast of power could not
overcome a crosswind...and then you're going even faster, too. Several times I
had to let it slow to a stop, pointing in the wrong direction, get out, and
move the tail to the desired direction, climb back in, and try it again !! Oh,
well...it gave the onlookers something to chuckle at !! I then installed
brakes, and could manage it on hard surface, but at a VERY SLOW walking speed.
I
flew 'er to Brodhead & Oshkosh '03 in that configuration. I almost lost it on
several occasions while taxiing, at various airports. On hard surface
landing roll out with the tail down, if there is a crosswind, full rudder
deflection still isn't enough. Then I would stab a brake, and the tail would come
up
and scare the Ba Jiebies out of me !! One time I went off the runway, and
almost took out a light. Now I have good working brakes & tailwheel...problems
solved !!
Chuck Gantzer
NX770CG
Yesterday did the 'Grand Tour' lap around Wichita !! Over a 2 1/2 hour
flight !! Way cool !! This is my 4th summer flying my plane, and I like 'er more
every time we go up !!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Biplane Fly In |
In a message dated 5/31/2005 11:46:16 AM Central Standard Time,
jim_markle@mindspring.com writes:
Anyone going to Bartlesville this weekend? Chuck? Doc?
Jim,
I'm glad you let me know about that one !! I'll be there, weather
permitting. Last year, I flew down there and back, for the fall EAA fly in. Well
within Piet Range.
Have fun with your tailwheel training !!
Chuck
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Latex paint for homebuilts |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Oscar and all,
Dont count on windshield wash solvent to have ammonia in it. I ( my
company) used to manufacture this product and we made it to many different
specifications, depending on seasons and customer specs. The only things
you can count on to be there are water, blue or red dye and some amount of
methenol.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Latex paint for homebuilts
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga"
> <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Carl asks about latex paint (Kirk Huizenga's testing on samples). There
> are any number of websites and webpages devoted to different techniques
> for using latex paint on fabric. Here's one of many:
>
> http://hammer.prohosting.com/~ragwings/main.html and go to the link that
> says "Jerry Bunner's paint method".
>
> One thing I would NOT do, that is mentioned on this page, is to apply "Son
> of a Gun" protectant on the paint. Reference Corky's (and others')
> comments on the use of silicone products on paint and other surfaces...
> not a good idea.
>
> One other latex paint site recommends the use of windshield washer fluid
> as a thinner for the latex paint. This fluid contains ammonia and also a
> small amount of detergent... and both of those things, along with the
> Floetrol, are supposed to help the paint flow into a smooth finish.
>
> The article referenced in the earlier email reached the conclusion that it
> is not necessary to use black latex as the first coat for blocking the
> sun's UV... just about all the latex house paints of all colors have the
> same effect. However, black latex is much easier to cover and hide with
> lighter colors than conventional paints if you are dead set on using the
> black.
>
> Disclaimer: I have no personal experience with these methods or materials.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
Message 10
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I just got my copy of June 2005 Sport Aviation today and found a letter in the
Members Forum, pages 71-72, titled Are Grass Routes Dead. I think is well worth
reading. It goes back to the discussion a few weeks ago on EAA. There is
also a very good response by Scott Spangler, the mag editor.
Dick
Message 11
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d="scan'208,217"; a="967336438:sNHT25426068"
"Paul Shenton" <paul@pjshenton.go-plus.net>,
"Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com>,
"Flitzer" <Flitzer-Builders@yahoogroups.com>
| Subject: | Second Pilot report |
There is a lot of good news to report on Greg and Dale's Pietenpol. This past
weekend, we took Chuck Gantzer's and other folks' from around the world advice
and changed the attack angle of the stabiliser by loosening up the front top
turnbuckles by two turns and tightening the two lower front turnbuckles two turns.
This had the effect of increasing the attack angle of the stabiliser making
it more agressive in holding the nose up. At 2000 rpm or so, the pitch is
now in trim in level cruising flight with no forward or aft pressure required
to hold a constant altitude/attitude. At cruising speed, if you increase the
power above 2000 rpm, the nose goes up. If you pull the power to an amount less
than 2000 rpm, the nose will drop. It is obvious from this that the center
of thrust is not colocated with the center of drag, the C of T being below the
C of D.
I identify this as a negative side effect of lengthening the cabane struts and
adding dihedral. The induced and parasitic drag of the wing is a large component
of the total drag of the ship. As the wing is moved higher and higher above
the fuselage, it moves the center of drag up. We are trying to move the C
of T and the C of D closer together, not farther apart. Ideally, they would be
colocated. I would recommend that if you plan to raise the wing an inch or
more from stock location, then raise the thrust line by a like amount to keep
the C of D and C of T relationship intact.
I have recommended to Dale and Greg that they remove the dihedral to help lower
the center of drag. If the tips are 2" higher than the root, it has the undesireable
effect of raising the wing an average of yet another inch.
As for power setting in cruise, the airplane seems to be very comfortable at 2000
rpm.
The way the power setting effects pitch could be worrisome for a first time flyer
as a departure stall could easily occur unless briefed of the phenomenon ahead
of time. You could "fly the ship off the ground" only to experience a nose
up movement due to the low thrust line that could put you right into a low altitude
stall. Dick Navratil warned me of this as it has bitten him more than
once but he also said that once you know what to do, it is easy to handle, and
that is what I have found. I fly the initial climb out right where the red
turns to white on the Johnson airspeen indicator. This is backed up by the site
picture of the top of the J-3 style eyebrows being held right on the horizon.
At 2000 rpm, right rudder pedal deflection of about 1/2" to 1" is still required
to hold the ball centered. A little left wing heaviness was still being experienced
early in the day. In addition, it also seemed that whenever a upward
vertical gust was encountered, it was always the right wing that raised up and
not the left. Over the course of the day, the right rear strut was lengthened
a total of two turns on top of adjustments made the previous weekend.
After the above adjustments to the stabiliser and the wing strut, if power is removed
to about 13-1500 rpm in order to approximate a zero thrust glide, and with
hands off the stick, the nose will drop and stay dropped as speed is gained.
It does not appear to try to recover or raise the nose without adding power
to get some thrust acting to pitch the nose up. This is at least to the speed
that I have tested it to which is 80 mph as indicated on the Johnson airspeed
indicator. In addition, with power at this 13-1500 rpm setting, the aircraft
would not need any rudder input nor would it need any roll input. I am pretty
sure that the wing heaviness is now fully corrected. It is difficult to
separate rudder and roll inputs as they are so related but I think that doing
the neutral thrust glides helps to iron this out.
We have taken all the shims out of the motor mount on its right side but it is
apparent that we still need more right thrust to get rid of the remaining right
rudder that must be held at cruise. The next change to be made will be to add
1/8" shims at top left and bottom left. We are almost to the point where the
cowling does not fit anymore! Believe me when they tell you how much right
thrust you need. It will be a lot!
I also tried a few power-on (2000 rpm) and -off (idle) full rudder side slips while
at altitude to see how the ship would recover. Initial recovery technique
was by removing my foot completely from the fully displaced rudder. She would
slowly return to normal attitude and would positively do so. Of course, this
is still tainted in the power-on condition by the need for yet more right
thrust. As Forrest said, she may be loathe to recover briskly unless postive
input is made. Power-on recovery was a lot better than power-off. She has so
much drag on final that pulling the power to idle and pointing agressively down
will give a good rate of descent at a constant airspeed so slips to landing
should not be often necessary.
The final item to mention is that the motor feels like it is trying to tumble a
bunch of rocks in a rock tumbler. The ship sports a homemade propeller that
Dale made. The prop is copied from an old Sensenich 7242 prop and turns 2200
rpm flat out level. I have a spare Sensenich W70DK-42 with only 20 hours on it
since new about 4 years ago that we will try out. This will enable us to determine
whether the homemade prop is out of balance and whether it should be reshaped
to get more RPM. Like his nose bowl, the leading edge on Dale's creation
is rather blunt. Rounding the leading edge more may give us the needed 100
rpm to make rated power. The W70DK42 propeller is normally used on an A-75
powered Taylorcraft. I have a few other props to try out and once the best is
found, we will have Dale consider another winter prop project.
Total time now is 6:28 up from 3:40 the previous week.
Flitzer los!
Chris
Message 12
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d="scan'208,217"; a="338573519:sNHT19813360"
Dick, What is a Grass Route?
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Navratil
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: EAA
I just got my copy of June 2005 Sport Aviation today and found a letter in the
Members Forum, pages 71-72, titled Are Grass Routes Dead. I think is well
worth reading. It goes back to the discussion a few weeks ago on EAA. There
is also a very good response by Scott Spangler, the mag editor.
Dick
Message 13
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d="scan'208,217"; a="849343244:sNHT52384306"
"Flitzer" <Flitzer-Builders@yahoogroups.com>,
"Pete Gavin" <petegavin@mn.rr.com>,
"Paul Shenton" <paul@pjshenton.go-plus.net>
| Subject: | Second Flight Report Addendum |
As an addendum, I would like to add that the ship is still being flown with 60
lbs ballast in the aft of the firewall baggage compartment which puts the C of
G at 19.5" aft of the LE versus an aftmost universily accepted limit of 20".
Weather conditions were perfect: light and variable winds with 75 degree sunshine
and good thermal activity.
Flitzer los!
Chris
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