Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:16 AM - PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Christian Bobka)
2. 05:58 AM - Re: Spins (John Dilatush)
3. 06:43 AM - Re: engines... (Robert Gow)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Rick Holland)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 07/13/05 (Brad Smith)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Rick Holland)
7. 09:38 AM - Re: engines... (Dick Navratil)
8. 09:56 AM - Re: anydoy spin it? (Jim Ash)
9. 10:14 AM - List Digest Truncation Fixed!! (Matt Dralle)
10. 10:18 AM - Re: engines... (bike.mike)
11. 10:26 AM - Re: anydoy spin it? (Mark)
12. 03:33 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Christian Bobka)
13. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 07/13/05 (Christian Bobka)
14. 03:38 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Christian Bobka)
15. 03:41 PM - Re: engines... (Christian Bobka)
16. 05:26 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Rick Holland)
17. 05:30 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Rick Holland)
18. 05:54 PM - Re: anydoy spin it? (Galen Hutcheson)
19. 06:06 PM - Three different fuselages exist (Christian Bobka)
20. 06:06 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Christian Bobka)
21. 06:09 PM - Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet fuselage (Christian Bobka)
22. 06:30 PM - we need to do 40 on account of the prop (Christian Bobka)
23. 07:19 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Larry Nelson)
24. 07:57 PM - Re: engines... (Dick Navratil)
25. 08:02 PM - Re: engines... (Dick Navratil)
26. 08:26 PM - Re: engines... (Christian Bobka)
27. 08:46 PM - Re: engines... (bike.mike)
28. 09:15 PM - Re: engines... (Stephen!)
29. 09:15 PM - Re: engines... (Stephen!)
30. 09:40 PM - Re: anydoy spin it? (Jim Ash)
31. 11:50 PM - Re: anydoy spin it? (Galen Hutcheson)
Message 1
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d="scan'208,217"; a="1297273399:sNHT29218682"
Subject: | PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST Piet |
fuselage
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost to the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
It appears that the 1932 fuselage has the wood gear axle about 13.5 inches aft
of the firewall. The 1933 Improved Air Camper has the axle 17 inches aft of the
firewall. The weight and balance sheet I have from Don Pietenpol shows the
axle on the "1937 Air Camper with Corvair engine" (metal split axle gear on a
163 inch fuselage) at 16.5 inches aft of the firewall. The question Dale is
asking is how far aft of the firewall should the axle be on the longEST fuselage
for which we have no help from the drawings?
The 1932 fuselage (Hoopman drawings and 1932 Flying and Glider Manual) is 161
inches long. The 1933 Improved Air Camper fuselage is 163 inches long. The
longEST fuselage is 172.375 inches long. This is the one I understand you
have built.
It appears that the intersection of the first truss verticals with the lower longeron
on the 1932 fuselage is 8.375 or 8.5 inches aft of the firewall, depending
on which set of plans you look at. On the 1933 Improved fuselage, it is 10
inches, and on the longEST fuselage, it is 12 inches. This would mean
that the wood gear, unmodified from the 1932 plans and as mounted on the longEST
fuselage, would put the axle 12-8.5 or 3.5 inches farther aft on the longEST
fuselage than on the 1932 fuselage. It would be at 13.5 (see paragraph 1
sentence 1) + 3.5 or 17 inches aft of the firewall. Is this a good place for
it? Frank Pavliga. who did this to his longEST fuselage, said it was too far forward
at 17 inches aft of the firewall so he moved it aft when he did an engine switch
from the Model A to the A-65.
A better indicator of proper gear position is comparing it to the rear seat back
position in the particular fuselage since this indicates the shift aft of the
CG position as the fuselages have been stretched. The rear seat back (at the
top longeron) in the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 inches aft of the firewall. The
rear seat back in the 1933 Improved fuselage is 72.25 inches aft of the firewall.
The rear seat back of the longEST fuselage is 76.25 inches aft of the
firewall. This is a substantial shift aft in the position of the CG versus
the axle position as the fuselage is stretched.
Therefore, the axle on the 1932 fuselage is 70.5 -13.5 or 57 inches forward of
the rear seat back. The axle on the 1933 Improved is 72.25 -17 or 55.25 inches
forward of the rear seat back. Let us ignore the value from the 1932 fuselage
for reasons to be discussed later. Using the number from 1933 and applying
this to the longEST fuselage, we should have the axle at 76.25 - 55.25 or
21 inches aft of the firewall. Two paragraphs ago we determined that it will
actually wind up at 17 inches aft of the firewall with the wood gear, unmodified,
and Frank P. says this is too far forward. Therefore, it appears that we
need to redesign the gear so that the axle will sit farther aft in the V to the
tune of about 21 -17 or 4 inches.
As we noted above, if you look at the sweep of the V in the 1932 plans, you will
note that the front attach of the V is at 8.5 inches aft of the firewall. We
know that the axle is about 13.5 inches aft of the firewall. Therefore, the
sweep is 13.5 - 8.5 or 5 inches for the wood gear. Doing the same analysis for
the 1933 Improved Air Camper, we know the front attach of the V is at 10 inches
aft of the firewall and the axle is at 17 inches aft of the firewall. Therefore
the sweep is 17 -10 or 7 inches for the split axle gear. The next sentence
is important. If you put the 1932 wood gear on a 1933 Improved fuselage, you
would have an axle that will be 7 - 5 or 2 inches forward of where it would
have been if you had used the split axle gear!!!! So the gears are not necessarily
interchangeable!!! Logic says that it does not matter which style gear
you use. The axle should always be in the same relative position. I see this
as an admission by BP that the original 1932 axle was too far forward by 2 inches.
And now we know what Frank P. was talking about!!!!
It is obvious that BP saw fit, when designing the 1933 Improved Air Camper, that
if he lengthened the fuselage from 161 to 163 inches and moved the pilot's rear
seat back aft by 1.75 inches, then he must move the axle aft by 17 -13.5 -
2 or 1.5 inches. (Consider 2 of the 3.5 inch difference between 17 and 13.5
as a design correction and the remaining 1.5 of the 3.5 inches to be an adjustment
for the new fuselage length and movement aft of the rear seat back.) So
what would BP do if he made the fuselage 172.375 inches long (a whopping 9.375
inches longer) and moved the rear seat back aft yet another 76.25 -72.25 or 4
inches?
As mentioned before, I propose a redesign of the V to allow the axle to sit 4 inches
further aft of where it sits in the 1932 V. This makes sense. As just
discussed, the original sweep was 5 inches. The new proposed sweep is 5 + 4 or
9 inches. This is reasonable compared to BP's increase of sweep in the split
axle gear to 7 inches for a slightly longer fuselage with a repositioned pilot.
Adding even more length for the longEST fuselage and moving the pilot
an astounding 4 more inches aft over the 1933 fuselage and 5.75 more inches aft
over the 1932 fuselage definitely calls for an adjustment in the sweep of the
wood V.
As I see it, after BP's design correction is factored in, if you want to use a
wood straight axle gear in the short 161 inch long 1932 fuselage, then the axle
should be at 13.5+2 (the 2 inch correction) or 15.5 inches aft of the firewall
(the V has a 7 inch sweep). If you want to use a wood straight axle gear in
the 163 inch long Improved Air Camper fuselage, then the axle should be at the
same location as in the split axle gear, 17 inches aft of the firewall (the
V has a 7 inch sweep). If you want to use a wood straight axle gear in the 172.375
inch long longEST fuselage, then the axle should be 21 inches aft
of the firewall (the V should have a 9 inch sweep).
Frank P. started with 5 inch sweep and ended up with 7 inch sweep after his engine
swap and gear modification. I propose that a 9 inch sweep is optimal but you
could probably get by just fine with the 7 inch sweep. Either way, I would
not use the 1932 gear as it is on the drawings for the longEST fuselage. Does this
help?
I rest my case and am going to bed.
Chris Bobka
Message 2
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spins
Chuck,
I really can't give you a diffinitive answer about the horsepower output because
I used manifold pressure to determine power settings. According to the book,
the engine at max power pulled about 110 hp in the US version at 4800 rpm and
45" of manifold pressure. The Japanese version ran up to 5500 rpm and produced
135 hp.
At the field elevation, (7946 ft) I would pull about 42 to 44 inches depending
on temp. As I climbed out the manifold pressure would drop and I would guess
at 15,000 plus feet it was down to only about 38 inches. I either didn't look
or don't remember now because of the cold. Assuming that I was pulling 110
hp at takeoff, and if manifold pressure has a linear relationship to hp, then
I probably was producing about 90 to 95 hp.
A normally aspirated engine loses power at about 3% per 1,000 ft . If we assume
that you are putting out 65 hp at sea level, and assuming it would take 45
hp to maintain a Piet in level flight; then your ceiling should be about 10,000
ft.
Let me know how it turns out.
Cordially,
John
.
In a message dated 7/13/2005 9:33:55 AM Central Standard Time, dilatush@amigo.net
writes:
In another matter, I noticed on the list some discussion about the ceiling
of a Piet. I would like to claim the record here if I may, 15,300 feet! Of course
I had a turbocharged Subaru engine. Is this cheating? The plane was still
climbing at this altitude, but I was so damn'd cold, I terminated the experiment.
Cordially,
John
Well John, ya probably got me there !! How much horsepower do you suppose the
engine was putting out at 15,000 feet ? No doubt, my 65 hp would run out of
Umph, before I got 'er up that high.
Chuck G.
Planning on some high altitude tests this weekend. Will report results.
Message 3
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca>
I've wondered the same about my K100 engine (BMW motorcycle). It's a small
water-cooled package that provides over 100 HP in later versions.
Bob.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stephen!
Subject: Pietenpol-List: engines...
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!"
<pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
Has anyone tried putting a BMW motorcycle boxer engine in one of
these machines?
--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
Wow! Yes this helps a whole bunch. And yes Christian, I would vote to make
you a PhD in Pietology after a dissertation like this. So with my longEST
fuselage we are talking about putting the axles 9" behind the front ash
cross strut (9" sweep).
I hate to add another independent variable to our algorithm by people have
brought up the issue of brakes and tail wheel before, mentioning that all of
BP's plans are without them and that the gear needs to move forward some if
brakes and tail wheel are used. Any opinion how this fits into the equation?
Thanks Chris
Rick H (rookie landing gear designer)
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Rick,
> The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic
> posting that
> is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
> to the
> day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
> of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some
> controversy.
> This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I
> sent
> it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
> ...
>
--
Rick Holland
Message 5
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=nAcseNheMVC2TYpD2cJt1kTAdSKg6ZX0aMWoWXz3hc/sUUHeTSX/lSFQTXh6sxRczbXmbec8T1xZjPIyjMBggV92nkg+lg2gI4ZzZxzIhpnqdbWk90yLacuvAk/DCcQXEBkt2EXklLJXVjH4oFoTlT+jiucfLDn61o9r22eRAu4=
;
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 07/13/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Time: 03:40:37 PM PST US
From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: need input for my new exhaust
stacks
Right now I have swept back stacks with a heat muff on
both sides,
fashioned after
Tony B's heat muff design. All works great, with
ample heat for carb
and
cabin. Problem is that now that I'm taking
passengers, the stacks exit
about
24 inches from their mic and the conversation is very
limited. ( after
2 flights,
my throat is horse)
Just ordered the flanges and bent pipe pieces from JC
Whitney to make a
new design.
I'm thinking of an Areonca type design (two pipes into
one and going
down
to the lower fuse cowling to dump the sound out the
bottom.) Even
thought of
a small muffler on each stack, but the right size
doesn't seem to be
available.
Anyone have any tidbits of information to add to make
the design
better?
Thanks,
walt evans
NX140DL
Walt,
One of the guys one one of the lists mentioned
something about "stingers." Essentially it is a
section of tubing 8" long the same size as the main
exhaust, squeezed to about a 1/4" flat opening, then
with a plate welded in to fill that opening. Holes
are then drilled along the sides to slightly exceed
the area of the original outlet. His tests indicated
NO power loss and a significant noise reduction. This
was on a VW with 28" primary tubes, 4 into 4, so on
another engine you might see different results.
Dick Starks is about to try this on the new engine
that he hung on his Nieuport. If I hear more I'll let
you know.
Brad
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
Just one more variable in this landing gear design thing is deck angle and I
think Mike Cuy answered this one in a couple archive messages indicating
that building your gear to result in a top longeron deck angle of 12-13
degrees works well. I believe I will design to this.
Rick H.
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Rick,
> The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic
> posting that
> is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
> to the
> day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
> of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some
> controversy.
> This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I
> sent
> it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
> ........
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Message 7
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
I'm not aware of a BMW installation. I did some checking into using a
variety of 4 cyl motorcycle engines a few years ago. I main issue always
came back to them being too light and turning too fast. Between the issues
of extending the mount way out and engineering a reduction drive, I settled
on an A-65.
Now however there is a company called Hog Air that has a package with a
Harley Davidson engine. Engine, mount and reduction drive goes for about
$11k. With all accessories that should weigh in about right.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!"
> <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
>
>
> Has anyone tried putting a BMW motorcycle boxer engine in one of these
> machines?
>
> --
> IBA# 11465
> http://imagesdesavions.com
>
>
>
Message 8
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DNA: do not archive
Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 9
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Subject: | List Digest Truncation Fixed!! |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I finally figured out today what was causing the occasional
truncation of the daily List Digest emails. Seems that every once in
a while a message would contain a single "." (period) on line all by
itself. The mailers would see this and assume that this was the
universal emailer signal for "end of message", and consequently
wouldn't process any of the rest of the Digest message.
I've put in a filter today to remove any of these sequences so we
should be back in business on the Digests.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 10
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d="gif'147?scan'147,208,146,147"; a="1219219754:sNHT68288898"
BMW R100
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: anydoy spin it? |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.566, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.03,
BAYES_00 -2.60)
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark <aerialphotos@dp.net>
Jim Ash wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
> There are really two questions here; what are the plane's spin
> characteristics, and do you know how to do it?
>
> As for me, I would rather know how to spin under planned
> circumstances, than find out under unplanned circumstances. The
> knowledge of having done spins (and recoveries) has saved my bacon at
> least once (in a certificated airplane). It all happened so fast there
> wasn't much time to even think about it.
>
> As for the plane, I personally am not getting in any plane if I'm not
> comfortable I can get out of it in a manner I prefer.
>
>
> Jim Ash
>
Well Jim I would respectivefully disagree. First is spinning under
planned circumstances. With an experimental airplanes there is no such
thing. An 1/8 of an inch somewhere may totally change the spin
characteristics. A certificated airplane is built and tested to be both
predictable and consistent. One J3 loaded the same as the next will
have simular spins. That does not apply with a Piet or any other
airplane. Each is different. The thing that would bother me about
spinning a Piet is that most of them are flown so near the rearward CG
point. That means it is far more likely to flatten out as one person
has already pointed out.
Rarely will anyone get into a spin at an altitude that is high enough
for a reasonable chance of recovery in an unplanned situation. The
usual place is the base to final turn and one thing is for sure. Anyone
sharp enough to recover from an accidental spin, especially at low
altitude, is easily sharp enough to prevent it from happening in the
first place.
Message 12
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d="scan'208,217"; a="1287205987:sNHT48674078"
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
Rick,
Dale and I measured today and it looks like they used 7" for the sweep. This is
a good, empirically derived location and would be good for brake equipped as
well. What kind of brakes?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Wow! Yes this helps a whole bunch. And yes Christian, I would vote to make you
a PhD in Pietology after a dissertation like this. So with my longEST fuselage
we are talking about putting the axles 9" behind the front ash cross strut
(9" sweep).
I hate to add another independent variable to our algorithm by people have brought
up the issue of brakes and tail wheel before, mentioning that all of BP's
plans are without them and that the gear needs to move forward some if brakes
and tail wheel are used. Any opinion how this fits into the equation?
Thanks Chris
Rick H (rookie landing gear designer)
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting
that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost to
the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
...
--
Rick Holland
Message 13
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d="scan'208"; a="1129281542:sNHT74536906"
Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 07/13/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Brad, Please do let us know about the stingers and how they sound.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Smith" <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 07/13/05
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>
> Time: 03:40:37 PM PST US
> From: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: need input for my new exhaust
> stacks
>
> Right now I have swept back stacks with a heat muff on
> both sides,
> fashioned after
> Tony B's heat muff design. All works great, with
> ample heat for carb
> and
> cabin. Problem is that now that I'm taking
> passengers, the stacks exit
> about
> 24 inches from their mic and the conversation is very
> limited. ( after
> 2 flights,
> my throat is horse)
> Just ordered the flanges and bent pipe pieces from JC
> Whitney to make a
> new design.
> I'm thinking of an Areonca type design (two pipes into
> one and going
> down
> to the lower fuse cowling to dump the sound out the
> bottom.) Even
> thought of
> a small muffler on each stack, but the right size
> doesn't seem to be
> available.
> Anyone have any tidbits of information to add to make
> the design
> better?
> Thanks,
>
> walt evans
> NX140DL
>
> Walt,
>
> One of the guys one one of the lists mentioned
> something about "stingers." Essentially it is a
> section of tubing 8" long the same size as the main
> exhaust, squeezed to about a 1/4" flat opening, then
> with a plate welded in to fill that opening. Holes
> are then drilled along the sides to slightly exceed
> the area of the original outlet. His tests indicated
> NO power loss and a significant noise reduction. This
> was on a VW with 28" primary tubes, 4 into 4, so on
> another engine you might see different results.
>
> Dick Starks is about to try this on the new engine
> that he hung on his Nieuport. If I hear more I'll let
> you know.
>
> Brad
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
d="scan'208,217"; a="1296021385:sNHT42580204"
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
Rick,
What kind of wheels?
You may want to increase the length of the struts to get the deck angle up a little.
With the spoked wheels, the plane will full stall at aft stick and all
three will kiss simultaneously so it looks like this ship has a good deck angle.
I will bring my smart level tomarrow and measure a bunch of things like deck
angle in three point, deck angle in cruise, and I will also use a specific
part of the underside of the centersection to use as a basis for determining the
angle of the wing to level when in cruise etc.
Need those numbers....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Just one more variable in this landing gear design thing is deck angle and I
think Mike Cuy answered this one in a couple archive messages indicating that
building your gear to result in a top longeron deck angle of 12-13 degrees works
well. I believe I will design to this.
Rick H.
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting
that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost to
the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
........
--
Rick Holland
Message 15
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d="scan'208"; a="1296048725:sNHT391961972"
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Dick,
Just think of what a good day you would have if one jug on your A-65 stuck a
valve or swallowed one. Just think how far you could fly. Quite a long
way....
No just think what a better day you would have if you lost one jug on a two
banger....You are going down now....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
<horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> I'm not aware of a BMW installation. I did some checking into using a
> variety of 4 cyl motorcycle engines a few years ago. I main issue always
> came back to them being too light and turning too fast. Between the
issues
> of extending the mount way out and engineering a reduction drive, I
settled
> on an A-65.
> Now however there is a company called Hog Air that has a package with a
> Harley Davidson engine. Engine, mount and reduction drive goes for about
> $11k. With all accessories that should weigh in about right.
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:21 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engines...
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!"
> > <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
> >
> >
> > Has anyone tried putting a BMW motorcycle boxer engine in one of these
> > machines?
> >
> > --
> > IBA# 11465
> > http://imagesdesavions.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
Haven't decided on wheel type yet, am trying to get all these design
questions answered first. Will go with either 6x6 aircraft wheels or
motorcycle wheels. Figure I will kind of reverse engineer the gear by
building it to provide the proper deck angle. So I really appreciate the
data from your Piet as it sounds like you built yours right on the money.
Also, which fuselage do you have? And what does the 'EST' in longEST stand
for?
Thanks again
Rick
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> *Rick,*
> **
> *What kind of wheels?*
> **
> *You may want to increase the length of the struts to get the deck angle
> up a little. With the spoked wheels, the plane will full stall at aft stick
> and all three will kiss simultaneously so it looks like this ship has a good
> deck angle. I will bring my smart level tomarrow and measure a bunch of
> things like deck angle in three point, deck angle in cruise, and I will also
> use a specific part of the underside of the centersection to use as a basis
> for determining the angle of the wing to level when in cruise etc.*
> **
> *Need those numbers....*
> **
> *Chris*
> **
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:24 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the
> longEST Piet fuselage
>
> Just one more variable in this landing gear design thing is deck angle and
> I think Mike Cuy answered this one in a couple archive messages indicating
> that building your gear to result in a top longeron deck angle of 12-13
> degrees works well. I believe I will design to this.
>
> Rick H.
>
>
> On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > Rick,
> > The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic
> > posting that
> > is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
> > to the
> > day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5
> > hours
> > of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some
> > controversy.
> > This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I
> > sent
> > it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
> > ........
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
I am planning on using hydraulic disk brakes. The 7" sweep you measured
today, is that for a longEST?
RIck
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
>
> *Rick,*
> **
> *Dale and I measured today and it looks like they used 7" for the sweep.
> This is a good, empirically derived location and would be good for brake
> equipped as well. What kind of brakes?*
> **
> *Chris*
> **
> **
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com>
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the
> longEST Piet fuselage
>
> Wow! Yes this helps a whole bunch. And yes Christian, I would vote to make
> you a PhD in Pietology after a dissertation like this. So with my longEST
> fuselage we are talking about putting the axles 9" behind the front ash
> cross strut (9" sweep).
>
> I hate to add another independent variable to our algorithm by people have
> brought up the issue of brakes and tail wheel before, mentioning that all of
> BP's plans are without them and that the gear needs to move forward some if
> brakes and tail wheel are used. Any opinion how this fits into the equation?
>
> Thanks Chris
>
> Rick H (rookie landing gear designer)
>
> On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > Rick,
> > The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic
> > posting that
> > is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
> > to the
> > day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5
> > hours
> > of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some
> > controversy.
> > This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter. I
> > sent
> > it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
> > ...
> >
>
>
> --
> Rick Holland
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Message 18
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=OgrfEXN/zgUUZwVt10YFCr4ZyMW56BYIqOk0nIenJXlr3Z96IzgKVUEIDrblosK1KQht8fPcG6CRUO2rNznjdzYYoLUzWHtTGRCWzwqT8hqBIIKkmxovlSuSSIhaLJavCu0GeKUw0gBuV3e4sJz9392Pq2wD162OJaSN5b9/aq4=
;
Subject: | Re: anydoy spin it? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Well, I guess I can add my two cents. Spins are a
fact of life in aviation. Fear of spins prevents
pilots from becoming proficient in executing spins
safely and refexley. At low altitudes, where most
fatal spins occur, reflex recovery is about all that
can save you if you enter an incipient spin. This has
happened to me and I have over ten thousand flying
hours with over 1000 of those hours in acro. ANYONE
can get into a spin accidently, but not every pilot
can recover from a spin safely and in a timely
fashion. The only way to learn spins is through an
experienced pilot or instructor and then practice them
until you can do them without having to think about
them. I disagree that only certificated aircraft are
safe to spin. I have spun more experimentals than I
have certified aircraft. As a general rule, and
depending on the wing airfoil, experimentals stall
break quicker and therefore are easier to spin than
certified aircraft. Each airplane can have enough
different variables, even certified aircraft, that the
spin characteristics may change some. However, almost
all aircraft can spin, and therefor those aircraft can
recover from spins (if the CG isn't too far toward the
tail to prevent it). No Pilot should ever fly an
aircraft knowing it has a significient reward CG, to
me that is a no-brainer. To do so is just asking for
trouble. In spite of the fact that no two Pietenpols
are exactly the same, that doesn't mean that they
shouldn't be spun. But they should only be spin
tested by a pilot experienced in spins. He then could
teach the more in-experienced pilot how to do spins
safely in his personal plane. A pilot who is afraid
of spins needs to do something to get proficiency. I
don't care what the FAA says about this matter, spins
should be an intergal part of all flight training.
That is my two cents, so take it for what it is worth.
Dicussion is a healthy thing, but when it comes to
flying safely, there is no substitute for experience.
Doc H.
Do No Archive
--- Mark <aerialphotos@dp.net> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark
> <aerialphotos@dp.net>
>
> Jim Ash wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
> > There are really two questions here; what are the
> plane's spin
> > characteristics, and do you know how to do it?
> >
> > As for me, I would rather know how to spin under
> planned
> > circumstances, than find out under unplanned
> circumstances. The
> > knowledge of having done spins (and recoveries)
> has saved my bacon at
> > least once (in a certificated airplane). It all
> happened so fast there
> > wasn't much time to even think about it.
> >
> > As for the plane, I personally am not getting in
> any plane if I'm not
> > comfortable I can get out of it in a manner I
> prefer.
> >
> >
> > Jim Ash
> >
> Well Jim I would respectivefully disagree. First is
> spinning under
> planned circumstances. With an experimental
> airplanes there is no such
> thing. An 1/8 of an inch somewhere may totally
> change the spin
> characteristics. A certificated airplane is built
> and tested to be both
> predictable and consistent. One J3 loaded the same
> as the next will
> have simular spins. That does not apply with a Piet
> or any other
> airplane. Each is different. The thing that would
> bother me about
> spinning a Piet is that most of them are flown so
> near the rearward CG
> point. That means it is far more likely to flatten
> out as one person
> has already pointed out.
>
> Rarely will anyone get into a spin at an altitude
> that is high enough
> for a reasonable chance of recovery in an unplanned
> situation. The
> usual place is the base to final turn and one thing
> is for sure. Anyone
> sharp enough to recover from an accidental spin,
> especially at low
> altitude, is easily sharp enough to prevent it from
> happening in the
> first place.
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 19
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|
d="scan'208,217"; a="1296589602:sNHT29942672"
Subject: | Three different fuselages exist |
Did you not read the dissertation?
Here it is again:
The 1932 fuselage (Hoopman drawings and 1932 Flying and Glider Manual) is 161 inches
long. The 1933 Improved Air Camper fuselage is 163 inches long. The longEST
fuselage is 172.375 inches long. This is the one I understand you have
built.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Haven't decided on wheel type yet, am trying to get all these design questions
answered first. Will go with either 6x6 aircraft wheels or motorcycle wheels.
Figure I will kind of reverse engineer the gear by building it to provide the
proper deck angle. So I really appreciate the data from your Piet as it sounds
like you built yours right on the money.
Also, which fuselage do you have? And what does the 'EST' in longEST stand for?
Thanks again
Rick
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
What kind of wheels?
You may want to increase the length of the struts to get the deck angle up
a little. With the spoked wheels, the plane will full stall at aft stick and
all three will kiss simultaneously so it looks like this ship has a good deck
angle. I will bring my smart level tomarrow and measure a bunch of things like
deck angle in three point, deck angle in cruise, and I will also use a specific
part of the underside of the centersection to use as a basis for determining
the angle of the wing to level when in cruise etc.
Need those numbers....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Just one more variable in this landing gear design thing is deck angle and
I think Mike Cuy answered this one in a couple archive messages indicating that
building your gear to result in a top longeron deck angle of 12-13 degrees
works well. I believe I will design to this.
Rick H.
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting
that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
to the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter.
I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
........
--
Rick Holland
--
Rick Holland
Message 20
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|
d="scan'208,217"; a="1129994620:sNHT61737656"
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
longEST because it is the longest. For emphasis...
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Haven't decided on wheel type yet, am trying to get all these design questions
answered first. Will go with either 6x6 aircraft wheels or motorcycle wheels.
Figure I will kind of reverse engineer the gear by building it to provide the
proper deck angle. So I really appreciate the data from your Piet as it sounds
like you built yours right on the money.
Also, which fuselage do you have? And what does the 'EST' in longEST stand for?
Thanks again
Rick
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
What kind of wheels?
You may want to increase the length of the struts to get the deck angle up
a little. With the spoked wheels, the plane will full stall at aft stick and
all three will kiss simultaneously so it looks like this ship has a good deck
angle. I will bring my smart level tomarrow and measure a bunch of things like
deck angle in three point, deck angle in cruise, and I will also use a specific
part of the underside of the centersection to use as a basis for determining
the angle of the wing to level when in cruise etc.
Need those numbers....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Just one more variable in this landing gear design thing is deck angle and
I think Mike Cuy answered this one in a couple archive messages indicating that
building your gear to result in a top longeron deck angle of 12-13 degrees
works well. I believe I will design to this.
Rick H.
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting
that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
to the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter.
I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
........
--
Rick Holland
--
Rick Holland
Message 21
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|
d="scan'208,217"; a="1163231489:sNHT33793676"
Subject: | Re: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST |
Piet fuselage
yes. It is for the longEST fuselage. I will send you pictures.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
I am planning on using hydraulic disk brakes. The 7" sweep you measured today,
is that for a longEST?
RIck
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
Dale and I measured today and it looks like they used 7" for the sweep. This
is a good, empirically derived location and would be good for brake equipped
as well. What kind of brakes?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: PhD Dissertation on axle placement for the longEST
Piet fuselage
Wow! Yes this helps a whole bunch. And yes Christian, I would vote to make
you a PhD in Pietology after a dissertation like this. So with my longEST fuselage
we are talking about putting the axles 9" behind the front ash cross strut
(9" sweep).
I hate to add another independent variable to our algorithm by people have
brought up the issue of brakes and tail wheel before, mentioning that all of
BP's plans are without them and that the gear needs to move forward some if brakes
and tail wheel are used. Any opinion how this fits into the equation?
Thanks Chris
Rick H (rookie landing gear designer)
On 7/14/05, Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net> wrote:
Rick,
The following is related to your issue and I hope becomes a classic posting
that
is referenced by many for years to come. I wrote it 6.5 years ago almost
to the
day in response to a question posed by Greg Cardinal. It was about 5 hours
of research and headscratching. Of course, it will prompt some controversy.
This was supposed to have been published in MacLaren's BPA newsletter.
I sent
it to him but he never came out with the next edition.
...
--
Rick Holland
--
Rick Holland
Message 22
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|
d="scan'208,217"; a="1121790085:sNHT22532312"
Subject: | we need to do 40 on account of the prop |
Pieters,
I flew 5 hours in Greg and Dale's Piet today and 3 yesterday for a total of 8 in
two days for those in Rio Linda. I did about 40 Circuit and Bumps as well.
I came up with good numbers: 40 on approach and over the hedge. Vx and Vy are
about the same at 37 and the thing stalls at 30 power off or on. These are
all indicated airspeed as shown on the highly calibrated Johnson Airspeed Indicator.
We have 24 hours on the ship now and 6 days to go until it heads out to Brodhead....
Chris
Message 23
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=DZZslq9eCoa9wydUo/MeJEaS6HYkrnl+Jng1QQKOWWvM/yGBF8kKV3sKpNsmB8p6OSo5tjosfLEBrTbs4FCmb71Vv3404u0l8vOj2dWb39HESapxKlwIOfoZQ6SNSgbSfA69GnzLqVThJhbgLZ+fkvm6iN5OrH8UXUdga7M+JA4=
;
Subject: | Re: Brodhead Sustinence |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Sounds good but we will be "afoot".
--- Dennis Engelkenjohn <wingding@usmo.com> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dennis
> Engelkenjohn" <wingding@usmo.com>
>
> There is a pretty good coffee/sandwich shop in
> downtown Brodhead, just past
> the square.
> Dennis in St.Louis...who will be wearing a tie dyed
> shirt. It is too late to
> get my motto printed on a shirt: " Sanity is highly
> overrated!"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson
> <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > Last year, my buds and me starved whilst many were
> > feasting. Why? Because we neglected to buy our
> meal
> > tickets. So, this year, we don't want that to
> happen.
> > As I recall, the local chapter serves meals all
> day
> > with one big feast. Yes?
> >
> > I will be flying my C-195 but my heart will be
> with
> > N444MH, Howard Henderson's old plane which I own,
> but
> > have yet to fly, although I have completed the
> > relocation of the wing 3" aft. My name is also
> Larry
> > and I always have "Larry" written on MY forehead,
> so
> > please don't mistake me for the better looking
> Larry
> > who may also have "Larry" written on HIS forehead.
> >
> > We will be there Friday afternoon. Save some food.
> > Then it is to OSH Sunday morning.
> >
> >
> >
> > Larry Nelson
> > Springfield, MO
> > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> > 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> > SV/ Spirit of America
> > ARS WB0JOT
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> protection around
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
Message 24
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|
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Chris
I looked at those options in the past. With all that I have going on now,
I'm not building anything else now.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka"
> <sbobka@charter.net>
>
> Dick,
>
> Just think of what a good day you would have if one jug on your A-65 stuck
> a
> valve or swallowed one. Just think how far you could fly. Quite a long
> way....
>
> No just think what a better day you would have if you lost one jug on a
> two
> banger....You are going down now....
>
> Chris
>
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
>
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
> <horzpool@goldengate.net>
>>
>> I'm not aware of a BMW installation. I did some checking into using a
>> variety of 4 cyl motorcycle engines a few years ago. I main issue always
>> came back to them being too light and turning too fast. Between the
> issues
>> of extending the mount way out and engineering a reduction drive, I
> settled
>> on an A-65.
>> Now however there is a company called Hog Air that has a package with a
>> Harley Davidson engine. Engine, mount and reduction drive goes for about
>> $11k. With all accessories that should weigh in about right.
>> Dick N.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
>> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:21 PM
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engines...
>>
>>
>> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!"
>> > <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
>> >
>> >
>> > Has anyone tried putting a BMW motorcycle boxer engine in one of
>> > these
>> > machines?
>> >
>> > --
>> > IBA# 11465
>> > http://imagesdesavions.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 25
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Mike
Just looking at this engine, it doesn't appear heavy enough to balance.
What does it weigh?
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> BMW R100
Message 26
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|
d="scan'208"; a="1288768097:sNHT23293340"
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
that is why you went with a radial!
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
<horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> Chris
> I looked at those options in the past. With all that I have going on now,
> I'm not building anything else now.
> Dick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka"
> > <sbobka@charter.net>
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > Just think of what a good day you would have if one jug on your A-65
stuck
> > a
> > valve or swallowed one. Just think how far you could fly. Quite a long
> > way....
> >
> > No just think what a better day you would have if you lost one jug on a
> > two
> > banger....You are going down now....
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> >
> >
> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
> > <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> >>
> >> I'm not aware of a BMW installation. I did some checking into using a
> >> variety of 4 cyl motorcycle engines a few years ago. I main issue
always
> >> came back to them being too light and turning too fast. Between the
> > issues
> >> of extending the mount way out and engineering a reduction drive, I
> > settled
> >> on an A-65.
> >> Now however there is a company called Hog Air that has a package with a
> >> Harley Davidson engine. Engine, mount and reduction drive goes for
about
> >> $11k. With all accessories that should weigh in about right.
> >> Dick N.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
> >> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:21 PM
> >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!"
> >> > <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Has anyone tried putting a BMW motorcycle boxer engine in one of
> >> > these
> >> > machines?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > IBA# 11465
> >> > http://imagesdesavions.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 27
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d="scan'208"; a="1122306088:sNHT22181458"
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@charter.net>
I'm not sure of the specs on the various BMW motorcycle engine conversions.
There are three sites I've found: two in the UK at
http://www.microlightsport.co.uk/Catalogue/bmwengine.htm (R1100 Oil head)
and http://www.bmw.flyer.co.uk/
and one here in the US at
http://www.airdale.com/bmw_engines.htm
These last folks claim 78 Hp from an R100 air cooled boxer but I can't find
a weight...it took some fooling around to read their web pages. The font
was the same color as the background in my browser.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
<horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> Mike
> Just looking at this engine, it doesn't appear heavy enough to balance.
> What does it weigh?
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@charter.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: engines...
>
>
> > BMW R100
>
>
Message 28
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|
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
Robert Gow wrote:
> I've wondered the same about my K100 engine (BMW motorcycle). It's a small
> water-cooled package that provides over 100 HP in later versions.
If yer K100 is anything like my K11 you'd certainly need a reduction
unit. My K11 doesn't start hitting its power until it's spinning at
4000 RPM... When it does, though, you'd better hang on! ;)
I was thinking the boxer engine would work well because it has so much
more lower end torque. It's also a rather simple engine so maintenance
and repair issues should be fairly easy...
--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com
Message 29
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Stephen!" <pietenpol@imagesdesavions.com>
bike.mike wrote:
> BMW R100
Heh... THERE ya go!
Nice...
:)
--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com
Message 30
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|
Subject: | Re: anydoy spin it? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
I didn't want to fuel a religious war here, but I'm with Doc.
The one unintentional spin I'd done was right after transitioning to a
single-seat glider (a SGS 1-26) and I wasn't comfortably familiar the the
aircraft yet. I was trying to wring a little life out of a weak thermal at
a low altitude, so I was set up for the classic spin; slow and turning with
a pretty good bank angle. The spin cracked so fast I didn't know what hit
me, and my left wing dropped like it had broken off. I mashed the rudder
fast enough I don't even think I got a half-turn out of it, but it honestly
was all so quick I don't remember. Other than finding myself a little too
low and having to do an abbreviated pattern, it wasn't really that big a
deal. I would have been toast were it not for the drilling of spin recovery
at the insistence of my instructor.
Experimental or not, I'm not a perfect person and I screw up more
frequently than I care to admit. I'm not an aerobatic pilot, but knowing
how to spin and knowing the plane I'm in can recover from one gives me an
option if/when I do screw up. I try to know where my margins are, and
assuming I can't fly the perfect pattern every time, I have to understand
the circumstances when I overshoot that base-to-final turn and I'm trying
to fix the mess I've just made. Knowing this is one of the classic places
to make a bad mistake, I really watch my airspeed at this point, and maybe
even make the turn a bit hotter than some, just in case, then bleed it off
on final.
As for the Piet (or any other airplane), where your CG is when you fly is a
personal choice, not necessarily a fact of the particular design (although
it's admittedly more problematic with some designs than others). Some
gliders have big steel blocks they can stuff in the front to pull the CG
forward when a lightweight flys in them. Come time for me to fly any plane
I build, I'll have weights or sandbags or something up front if need be to
prevent my CG from going too far aft. If I can't pull my CG forward enough
to be safe without going over gross, I don't plan on building or getting in
one.
As for flight testing a Piet that I build, I'll have a good CG and a
parachute, then run it up to a serious altitude and make it happen. I guess
I'd rather wreck my plane than my physiology. I also took some lessons and
did a few parachute jumps to understand what that's about, in case I had to
bail out of a plane some time in the future. Like spinning, I figured it
might be handy to know the dynamics of it so I could remove that element of
the unknown from a potentially complicated problem while in the heat of battle.
Pardon me if this sounds like a bunch of over-zealous safety crap. Many
years ago a close friend was PIC carrying three passengers that crashed and
burned in a landing accident, all fatal. The plane was magnesium (a Grunman
Tiger), so the fire was amazingly intense. I was the one to ID a couple of
the charred bodies, help the coroner sort out the mess, and help his
parents with a lot of the arrangements afterwards. It kinda left a lasting
impression. The final report (which I knew in the first few hours, after
talking to a few witnesses) from the NTSB was pilot error. I was rated a
few years before that, and I've continued to fly, but with much more of an
eye towards safety.
Jim Ash
At 7/14/2005 05:51 PM -0700, you wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
>Well, I guess I can add my two cents. Spins are a
>fact of life in aviation. Fear of spins prevents
>pilots from becoming proficient in executing spins
>safely and refexley. At low altitudes, where most
>fatal spins occur, reflex recovery is about all that
>can save you if you enter an incipient spin. This has
>happened to me and I have over ten thousand flying
>hours with over 1000 of those hours in acro. ANYONE
>can get into a spin accidently, but not every pilot
>can recover from a spin safely and in a timely
>fashion. The only way to learn spins is through an
>experienced pilot or instructor and then practice them
>until you can do them without having to think about
>them. I disagree that only certificated aircraft are
>safe to spin. I have spun more experimentals than I
>have certified aircraft. As a general rule, and
>depending on the wing airfoil, experimentals stall
>break quicker and therefore are easier to spin than
>certified aircraft. Each airplane can have enough
>different variables, even certified aircraft, that the
>spin characteristics may change some. However, almost
>all aircraft can spin, and therefor those aircraft can
>recover from spins (if the CG isn't too far toward the
>tail to prevent it). No Pilot should ever fly an
>aircraft knowing it has a significient reward CG, to
>me that is a no-brainer. To do so is just asking for
>trouble. In spite of the fact that no two Pietenpols
>are exactly the same, that doesn't mean that they
>shouldn't be spun. But they should only be spin
>tested by a pilot experienced in spins. He then could
>teach the more in-experienced pilot how to do spins
>safely in his personal plane. A pilot who is afraid
>of spins needs to do something to get proficiency. I
>don't care what the FAA says about this matter, spins
>should be an intergal part of all flight training.
>
>That is my two cents, so take it for what it is worth.
>Dicussion is a healthy thing, but when it comes to
>flying safely, there is no substitute for experience.
>
>Doc H.
>
>Do No Archive
>
>--- Mark <aerialphotos@dp.net> wrote:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark
> > <aerialphotos@dp.net>
> >
> > Jim Ash wrote:
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
> > > There are really two questions here; what are the
> > plane's spin
> > > characteristics, and do you know how to do it?
> > >
> > > As for me, I would rather know how to spin under
> > planned
> > > circumstances, than find out under unplanned
> > circumstances. The
> > > knowledge of having done spins (and recoveries)
> > has saved my bacon at
> > > least once (in a certificated airplane). It all
> > happened so fast there
> > > wasn't much time to even think about it.
> > >
> > > As for the plane, I personally am not getting in
> > any plane if I'm not
> > > comfortable I can get out of it in a manner I
> > prefer.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim Ash
> > >
> > Well Jim I would respectivefully disagree. First is
> > spinning under
> > planned circumstances. With an experimental
> > airplanes there is no such
> > thing. An 1/8 of an inch somewhere may totally
> > change the spin
> > characteristics. A certificated airplane is built
> > and tested to be both
> > predictable and consistent. One J3 loaded the same
> > as the next will
> > have simular spins. That does not apply with a Piet
> > or any other
> > airplane. Each is different. The thing that would
> > bother me about
> > spinning a Piet is that most of them are flown so
> > near the rearward CG
> > point. That means it is far more likely to flatten
> > out as one person
> > has already pointed out.
> >
> > Rarely will anyone get into a spin at an altitude
> > that is high enough
> > for a reasonable chance of recovery in an unplanned
> > situation. The
> > usual place is the base to final turn and one thing
> > is for sure. Anyone
> > sharp enough to recover from an accidental spin,
> > especially at low
> > altitude, is easily sharp enough to prevent it from
> > happening in the
> > first place.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > browse
> > Subscriptions page,
> > FAQ,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>____________________________________________________
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
Message 31
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|
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=VisHTcazaP4zZHusf8yFvDUQ+UHQKUPQ5o1+sXutT0tHfjkS/66d6CPnS6zpKNAANfeJ22e1PGMRO7y7R0yk3SGzmLyhcMNMehHNqkt11ziHHqPtrXME2iyYeaAUSdM46FxqgsCIpN+rSj6bIn5LEiFmgExL/SXgPbI2J01sU90=
;
Subject: | Re: anydoy spin it? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Jim, I don't think that any of what you wrote sounds
like over-zealous safety crap, rather it is pure
common sense. Flying, as in many activities, has some
inherent danger. To enjoy our flying, we as pilots,
have to learn to correct bad situations we sometimes
get ourselves into while flying. A low altitude spin
is a very potentially dangerous situation that
requires quick reaction. If you have to think about
what is happening, then most likely you won't have the
time or altitude enough to recover before impacting
the ground. The only way you can recover quickly, as
you mentioned, is to be so comfortable with spins that
you can recover through almost pure reflex action. To
give one example, which I personally experienced, once
occured when I was flying an airshow doing a torque
roll with a tail-slide recovery. It was a hot, humid
day with a high density altitude so when I neared the
top of my vertical climb, rolling all the way up, I
did not have the altitude I needed to safely complete
the maneuver. The plane torqued, but when I started
the rolling tail slide recovery, the plane dropped on
its back and began an inverted flat spin. I was less
than 1000 ft. AGL (much less) when the spin started.
Without having to think about what was happening, I
was able to recover in about 3/4 of a rotation (I have
this captured on video tape) and was able to recover
without anyone really knowing what had happened. Had
it not been for the hundreds of spins I'd practiced,
both upright and inverted, I could have easily spun
into to ground. This is only one example of several,
where having practiced a recovery to some unusual
attitude, saved my life. I do wish to stress the
point that a pilot who is not comfortable doing spins
should not test them on his home-built without first
going out and gaining proficency with someone who is
qualified in spins and then practicing them until he
is comfortable before trying them solo in his own
plane.
Doc H.
--- Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
> <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> I didn't want to fuel a religious war here, but I'm
> with Doc.
>
> The one unintentional spin I'd done was right after
> transitioning to a
> single-seat glider (a SGS 1-26) and I wasn't
> comfortably familiar the the
> aircraft yet. I was trying to wring a little life
> out of a weak thermal at
> a low altitude, so I was set up for the classic
> spin; slow and turning with
> a pretty good bank angle. The spin cracked so fast I
> didn't know what hit
> me, and my left wing dropped like it had broken off.
> I mashed the rudder
> fast enough I don't even think I got a half-turn out
> of it, but it honestly
> was all so quick I don't remember. Other than
> finding myself a little too
> low and having to do an abbreviated pattern, it
> wasn't really that big a
> deal. I would have been toast were it not for the
> drilling of spin recovery
> at the insistence of my instructor.
>
> Experimental or not, I'm not a perfect person and I
> screw up more
> frequently than I care to admit. I'm not an
> aerobatic pilot, but knowing
> how to spin and knowing the plane I'm in can recover
> from one gives me an
> option if/when I do screw up. I try to know where my
> margins are, and
> assuming I can't fly the perfect pattern every time,
> I have to understand
> the circumstances when I overshoot that
> base-to-final turn and I'm trying
> to fix the mess I've just made. Knowing this is one
> of the classic places
> to make a bad mistake, I really watch my airspeed at
> this point, and maybe
> even make the turn a bit hotter than some, just in
> case, then bleed it off
> on final.
>
> As for the Piet (or any other airplane), where your
> CG is when you fly is a
> personal choice, not necessarily a fact of the
> particular design (although
> it's admittedly more problematic with some designs
> than others). Some
> gliders have big steel blocks they can stuff in the
> front to pull the CG
> forward when a lightweight flys in them. Come time
> for me to fly any plane
> I build, I'll have weights or sandbags or something
> up front if need be to
> prevent my CG from going too far aft. If I can't
> pull my CG forward enough
> to be safe without going over gross, I don't plan on
> building or getting in
> one.
>
> As for flight testing a Piet that I build, I'll have
> a good CG and a
> parachute, then run it up to a serious altitude and
> make it happen. I guess
> I'd rather wreck my plane than my physiology. I also
> took some lessons and
> did a few parachute jumps to understand what that's
> about, in case I had to
> bail out of a plane some time in the future. Like
> spinning, I figured it
> might be handy to know the dynamics of it so I could
> remove that element of
> the unknown from a potentially complicated problem
> while in the heat of battle.
>
> Pardon me if this sounds like a bunch of
> over-zealous safety crap. Many
> years ago a close friend was PIC carrying three
> passengers that crashed and
> burned in a landing accident, all fatal. The plane
> was magnesium (a Grunman
> Tiger), so the fire was amazingly intense. I was the
> one to ID a couple of
> the charred bodies, help the coroner sort out the
> mess, and help his
> parents with a lot of the arrangements afterwards.
> It kinda left a lasting
> impression. The final report (which I knew in the
> first few hours, after
> talking to a few witnesses) from the NTSB was pilot
> error. I was rated a
> few years before that, and I've continued to fly,
> but with much more of an
> eye towards safety.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
>
>
> At 7/14/2005 05:51 PM -0700, you wrote:
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen
> Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
> >
> >Well, I guess I can add my two cents. Spins are a
> >fact of life in aviation. Fear of spins prevents
> >pilots from becoming proficient in executing spins
> >safely and refexley. At low altitudes, where most
> >fatal spins occur, reflex recovery is about all
> that
> >can save you if you enter an incipient spin. This
> has
> >happened to me and I have over ten thousand flying
> >hours with over 1000 of those hours in acro.
> ANYONE
> >can get into a spin accidently, but not every pilot
> >can recover from a spin safely and in a timely
> >fashion. The only way to learn spins is through an
> >experienced pilot or instructor and then practice
> them
> >until you can do them without having to think about
> >them. I disagree that only certificated aircraft
> are
> >safe to spin. I have spun more experimentals than
> I
> >have certified aircraft. As a general rule, and
> >depending on the wing airfoil, experimentals stall
> >break quicker and therefore are easier to spin than
> >certified aircraft. Each airplane can have enough
> >different variables, even certified aircraft, that
> the
> >spin characteristics may change some. However,
> almost
> >all aircraft can spin, and therefor those aircraft
> can
> >recover from spins (if the CG isn't too far toward
> the
> >tail to prevent it). No Pilot should ever fly an
> >aircraft knowing it has a significient reward CG,
> to
> >me that is a no-brainer. To do so is just asking
> for
> >trouble. In spite of the fact that no two
> Pietenpols
> >are exactly the same, that doesn't mean that they
> >shouldn't be spun. But they should only be spin
> >tested by a pilot experienced in spins. He then
> could
> >teach the more in-experienced pilot how to do spins
> >safely in his personal plane. A pilot who is
> afraid
> >of spins needs to do something to get proficiency.
> I
> >don't care what the FAA says about this matter,
> spins
> >should be an intergal part of all flight training.
> >
> >That is my two cents, so take it for what it is
> worth.
> >Dicussion is a healthy thing, but when it comes to
> >flying safely, there is no substitute for
> experience.
> >
> >Doc H.
> >
> >Do No Archive
> >
> >--- Mark <aerialphotos@dp.net> wrote:
> >
> > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark
> > > <aerialphotos@dp.net>
> > >
> > > Jim Ash wrote:
> > >
> > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash
> > > > There are really two questions here; what are
> the
> > > plane's spin
> > > > characteristics, and do you know how to do it?
> > > >
> > > > As for me, I would rather know how to spin
> under
> > > planned
> > > > circumstances, than find out under unplanned
> > > circumstances. The
> > > > knowledge of having done spins (and
> recoveries)
> > > has saved my bacon at
> > > > least once (in a certificated airplane). It
> all
> > > happened so fast there
> > > > wasn't much time to even think about it.
> > > >
> > > > As for the plane, I personally am not getting
> in
>
=== message truncated ===
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