Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:41 AM - Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (TBYH@AOL.COM)
2. 10:24 AM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Galen Hutcheson)
3. 10:36 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 (Brad Smith)
4. 10:39 AM - Engine question of another sort. (Brad Smith)
5. 12:44 PM - Another landing gear question (Rick Holland)
6. 12:46 PM - Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN (TBYH@aol.com)
7. 12:51 PM - Re: Another landing gear question (Rick Holland)
8. 01:56 PM - Brodhead Seminars (Ron Franck)
9. 02:18 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
10. 02:52 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Larry Nelson)
11. 04:25 PM - The longest fuselage (Michael Turrell)
12. 04:50 PM - Re: The longest fuselage (Christian Bobka)
13. 04:54 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Christian Bobka)
14. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. (Galen Hutcheson)
15. 09:53 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Javier Cruz)
16. 11:23 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Christian Bobka)
17. 11:37 PM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Christian Bobka)
Message 1
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Subject: | Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted |
I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be surprised
if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much closer
to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee.
Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in an SNJ
with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my Father's
Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great
experience and I recommend it!
Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best
friends was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too steep
turn-to-final approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I did was
stalls, power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated stalls.
In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the nose
down, of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it happened so
fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was
inverted, looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what inattentive
flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no
problem...however, recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this stall/spin
at 800
or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or
shall I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor were killed
-- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy.
You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this past May
-- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock and
his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) Wasn't
the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and
Harvard operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind what
Assen Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never stall
close to the ground!"
Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather we've
been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a week
now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks!
BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they want to
sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week at
Brodhead! And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc Superbug VW
engine, let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but came
back to the Piet).
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Fred, that was certainly sad news about that flight
instructor and his student. That was one type of
accident that can be easily avoided. Your SNJ
instructor did the right thing taking you through all
those stalls because a pilot must know what the plane
he is flying feels like (note I didn't use the word
"speed") just before it stalls. When I fly a new or
different type of airplane, I always do a few stalls
before attempting to land the thing. If I make any
modification to an experimental plane, I repeat stall
tests. Many pilots either don't know, or refuse to
believe, that stalls can occur at any airspeed. The
stall is entirely dependent on relative wind and angle
of attack. The reason some pilots think that airspeed
is involved in stalls, is because in order to maintain
altitude at slow airspeed, you have to increase the
angle of attack. I know this is old news for most of
you, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed
from time to time. Stalls and spins are directly
linked. The plane has to have one wing stalled in
order for the plane to spin. The reason for the spin
is that the wing on the inside of the yaw turn (the
side the rudder is pushed) reaches the critical angle
of attack for the stall before the outside wing does.
The inside wing has no lift, the outside wing has
lift. This allows the lift on the outside wing to roll
the plane in the direction of the spin. A snap roll
is just a spin at a higher airspeed. The principle is
the same. Far too many pilots (and passengers) are
killed needlessly due to too many pilots not
understanding the stall/spin phenomnen and, most
importantly, not experienced in recovery from these
flight attitudes. An approach to stall, which is
being taught today, is no substitute for full stall
training. Stall training needs to be taken one step
further to spin training. This may be a dead horse
I'm whipping, but I have felt this way for three
decades of flying.
Doc H.
Do Not Archive
--- TBYH@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of
> flight instruction in an SNJ
> with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL.
> Was basically my Father's
> Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in
> the front seat -- great
> experience and I recommend it!
>
>
>
> Fred B.
> La Crosse, WI
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Yup... I've done ONE spin... or my instructor did,
because I asked him to show me. Yes, a 150 WILL flip
on it's back and then enter the spin, or it sure feels
that way anyhow. VERY disorienting! (but kinda fun
too!)
Years ago when I started aerobatic training, of which
I did little, My
instructor insisted in starting with spin entries.
Being a new private
pilot I knew everything about spins. We had done them
in our training.
Well guess what; I didn't know squat. He showed me
the typical low
level
spin entries that kill people, steep turn, too slow
cross controlled.
Who
knew a 150 would flip over on it's back to enter a
spin (top rudder to
keep
the nose up) or sneak in to a spin on the inside
(bottom rudder to
hurry the
turn). Relevant spin training is important.
Bob
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 4
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Subject: | Engine question of another sort. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Gents,
I'm not looking to build a Piet, although I like the
aircraft. I'm wanting to do a WWI replica, and need
an inline engine, which is why I'm on here.
I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have
some questions if anyone can help.
What is the reliability of this conversion like? I'm
not talking about TBO, because as a "sport" flyer it
will take several years of flying to matter. I mean
is it reliable as long as it is maintained and within
reasonable TBO limits?
Has anyone hooked one up to measure static thrust?
What prop size?
How about weight of the conversion?
Brad
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Subject: | Another landing gear question |
A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3) says
"Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the flying
strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of 45"/80.5"). Making
the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it to the plans
or maybe find another trig calculator?
--
Rick Holland
Message 6
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Subject: | Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN |
Just got off the phone with Tiffany at Prairie Home Companion, Minnesota
Public Radio. She called to interview me about my earliest memories of Prairie
Home Companion. I heard some of the very first broadcasts in 1974. What they use
of my interview will air in two weeks on the August 6th program. She was also
interested in the fact that I'm building a Pietenpol Air Camper -- another
Minnesota original, of course. Don't know if she'll use that on the air -- I
quipped that someday we Piet builders may hold a Pietenpol fly in at Lake Wobegon.
I'm sure they have some lovely grass fields suitable for Piets to fly in and
out of... ; )
Anyway, tune in to PHC on Saturday, August 6 at 5:00 p.m. CDST.
See you all at Brodhead a week from yesterday/today!
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Another landing gear question |
Sorry, never mind, I should have checked the archives first, looks like 30
degrees is correct.
do not archive
On 7/16/05, Rick Holland <at7000ft@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3)
> says "Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the
> flying strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of 45"/80.5").
> Making the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it to
> the plans or maybe find another trig calculator?
>
> --
> Rick Holland
--
Rick Holland
Message 8
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Subject: | Brodhead Seminars |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ron Franck <franck@geneseo.net>
There was some recent discussion about what might be a good topic for a
seminar at Brodhead.
I know time is growing short ,so maybe next year, but I don't have a clue
as to how to use plasti-gage during engine assembly, specifically a corvair
engine. It would be great to see it actually used and perhaps some
discussion as to how to correct a situation where the fit-up is out of
tolerance. Any takers?
Message 9
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ETAtAhQn14TlDILg4FFAhbDNnXpZ5kh9UQIVAJqci4DYzsCfox4f75q3lS7HROw8
Subject: | Re: Engine question of another sort. |
2005 10:36:29 -0700 (PDT)
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
Brad: I can't answer your question, but all I know is that some guys fly
the heck out of the Ford As, reliably, and others have nothing but
problems with it and end up replacing the "A" with a Cont. aircraft
engine. Leon S. Praying for a successful Model A---but have a Cont. A-65
waiting in the wings just n case. PS Get hold of Ken Perkins ( Ford A
guru. Usually at Brodhead) I don't have his address, Perhaps someone
else has it. Good luck. Do not archive
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead Arrivals |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am
flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking
that the field is "closed" during some part of the
day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed
runways"?????
Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the
airport "closing"????
Larry Nelson
Springfield, MO
Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
1963 GMC 4106-1618
SV/ Spirit of America
ARS WB0JOT
Message 11
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Subject: | The longest fuselage |
It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and being 6'1"
tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit from the
extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can be purchased
from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don Pietenpol
has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" longer
for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where
do I order this from? Thanks in advance.
This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and enjoying
it immensely.
Regadrs,Mike Turrell
Message 12
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d="scan'208,217"; a="1320492468:sNHT32890178"
Subject: | Re: The longest fuselage |
Mike,
the 172 3/8" long fuselage plans are available from Don pietenpol. he might refer
to it as the Corvair fuselage. If you talk to him, he will know what you
mean.
chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Turrell
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:21 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage
It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and being
6'1" tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit from
the extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can be purchased
from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don Pietenpol
has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" longer
for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where
do I order this from? Thanks in advance.
This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and enjoying
it immensely.
Regadrs,Mike Turrell
Message 13
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d="scan'208"; a="1172103579:sNHT22636930"
Subject: | Re: Brodhead Arrivals |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Larry,
They usually close the NW/SE runway and the NE/SW runway leaving the E/W
runway at the airports north side open. I have never seen the airport
closed for any reason during the flyin. The closed runways should be X'd
off with a yellow X at each end. I believe the E/W is the longest. Two
years ago, it was incredible windy and hot and it got to the point where the
E/W runway was unuseable for almost all aircraft which created problems for
arrivals. As a result, they opened the NE/SW runway. It was so windy, it
only took a few hundred feet to roll out so it did not impinge too much on
normal operations.
Cheers,
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Nelson" <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson <lnelson208@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am
> flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking
> that the field is "closed" during some part of the
> day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed
> runways"?????
>
> Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the
> airport "closing"????
>
> Larry Nelson
> Springfield, MO
> Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A
> Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH
> 1963 GMC 4106-1618
> SV/ Spirit of America
> ARS WB0JOT
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Engine question of another sort. |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Brad, I'm building a 75% scale Curtiss Jenny of sorts
and will be powering it with a converted Model A.
Though I haven't flown behind the "A" I've heard good
things about them. Ken Perkins is building my engine
for me and he is tops. The engine has been used to
power Pietenpols since the late 1920's and is a sound
engine if converted properly. What kind of plane are
your building, if I may ask?
I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have
> some questions if anyone can help.
>
> How about weight of the conversion?
I think mine is supposed to put out 72 hp (with the
high compression pistons and other modifications and
is supposed to weigh around 210 lbs or so.
>
>Doc H.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead Sustinence |
hlink.net>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz <javcr@prodigy.net.mx>
Hi Friends
This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight
reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this time
i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico
City, please advice me.....
Javier Cruz
Message 16
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d="scan'208"; a="1013346318:sNHT49400122"
Subject: | Re: Brodhead Sustinence |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Javier,
We will look for you!
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Javier Cruz" <javcr@prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz <javcr@prodigy.net.mx>
>
> Hi Friends
>
> This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight
> reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this
time
> i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico
> City, please advice me.....
> Javier Cruz
>
>
Message 17
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d="jpg'145?scan'145,208,217,145"; a="1230876898:sNHT77332064"
Subject: | Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted |
Fred,
I will be flying overhead La Crosse on the way from Minneapolis to Brodhead. Look
for me!
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Bobka
To: TBYH@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted
Fred,
Look for me with a pile of drawings next weekend at Brodhead. I would like you
to see the plans for the Flitzer variants which you may really like better
than the Pietenpol. I will have them with me to show to Larry Williams.
It is the same construction style as the Pietenpol except that the design will
fit you, yet it is small, and it looks cool. Engine choices range from VW to
Corvair to Continental A-65 through O-200 and also the Rotec R2800 radial....
http://www.av8rblake.com/flitzer/
There are a multitude of single seat variants and one two seater....
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: TBYH@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:37 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted
I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be surprised
if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much closer
to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee.
Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in an SNJ
with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my Father's
Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great experience
and I recommend it!
Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best friends
was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too steep turn-to-final
approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I did was stalls,
power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated stalls.
In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the nose down,
of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it happened so
fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was inverted,
looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what inattentive
flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no problem...however,
recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this stall/spin at 800
or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or shall
I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor were killed
-- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy.
You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this past May
-- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock and
his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) Wasn't
the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and Harvard
operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind what Assen
Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never stall
close to the ground!"
Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather we've
been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a week
now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks!
BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they want to
sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week at Brodhead!
And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc Superbug VW engine,
let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but came
back to the Piet).
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
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