---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/16/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:41 AM - Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (TBYH@AOL.COM) 2. 10:24 AM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Galen Hutcheson) 3. 10:36 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 (Brad Smith) 4. 10:39 AM - Engine question of another sort. (Brad Smith) 5. 12:44 PM - Another landing gear question (Rick Holland) 6. 12:46 PM - Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN (TBYH@aol.com) 7. 12:51 PM - Re: Another landing gear question (Rick Holland) 8. 01:56 PM - Brodhead Seminars (Ron Franck) 9. 02:18 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 10. 02:52 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Larry Nelson) 11. 04:25 PM - The longest fuselage (Michael Turrell) 12. 04:50 PM - Re: The longest fuselage (Christian Bobka) 13. 04:54 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Christian Bobka) 14. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. (Galen Hutcheson) 15. 09:53 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Javier Cruz) 16. 11:23 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Christian Bobka) 17. 11:37 PM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:09 AM PST US From: TBYH@AOL.COM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be surprised if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much closer to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee. Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in an SNJ with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my Father's Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great experience and I recommend it! Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best friends was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too steep turn-to-final approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I did was stalls, power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated stalls. In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the nose down, of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it happened so fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was inverted, looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what inattentive flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no problem...however, recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this stall/spin at 800 or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or shall I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor were killed -- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy. You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this past May -- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock and his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) Wasn't the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and Harvard operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind what Assen Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never stall close to the ground!" Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather we've been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a week now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks! BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they want to sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week at Brodhead! And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc Superbug VW engine, let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but came back to the Piet). Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:28 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=NSGb+y3RYbJJ4ZruwJkKxRt+8nUJt2PMVnrxb3tWU32BbH6NXrzedtbubyr8i7gP86y7IfSTAi5afan3NpcoQvvgqnMii0/sAv6tQXspPWx6JW0lBIra7MJER1l5SEBq/UfSILFuIPqX/uSGuH18DyAag8F8i8LBG/zViE1m0xc= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Fred, that was certainly sad news about that flight instructor and his student. That was one type of accident that can be easily avoided. Your SNJ instructor did the right thing taking you through all those stalls because a pilot must know what the plane he is flying feels like (note I didn't use the word "speed") just before it stalls. When I fly a new or different type of airplane, I always do a few stalls before attempting to land the thing. If I make any modification to an experimental plane, I repeat stall tests. Many pilots either don't know, or refuse to believe, that stalls can occur at any airspeed. The stall is entirely dependent on relative wind and angle of attack. The reason some pilots think that airspeed is involved in stalls, is because in order to maintain altitude at slow airspeed, you have to increase the angle of attack. I know this is old news for most of you, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed from time to time. Stalls and spins are directly linked. The plane has to have one wing stalled in order for the plane to spin. The reason for the spin is that the wing on the inside of the yaw turn (the side the rudder is pushed) reaches the critical angle of attack for the stall before the outside wing does. The inside wing has no lift, the outside wing has lift. This allows the lift on the outside wing to roll the plane in the direction of the spin. A snap roll is just a spin at a higher airspeed. The principle is the same. Far too many pilots (and passengers) are killed needlessly due to too many pilots not understanding the stall/spin phenomnen and, most importantly, not experienced in recovery from these flight attitudes. An approach to stall, which is being taught today, is no substitute for full stall training. Stall training needs to be taken one step further to spin training. This may be a dead horse I'm whipping, but I have felt this way for three decades of flying. Doc H. Do Not Archive --- TBYH@aol.com wrote: > > > Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of > flight instruction in an SNJ > with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. > Was basically my Father's > Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in > the front seat -- great > experience and I recommend it! > > > > Fred B. > La Crosse, WI > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:08 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Z/rJfghcfKZMeCC12RhQeHyaZCRW0XK5sswxKhInI5zHKrrxtA2agm5yjLh44273yZB3698wTesEfKoryM/ugHDy7IvNxmq5PO4Y6DE1QjQzsztqixtT6UVm9kCbjq1r+EWiIcTcUm1YypP/4fKh8VCcgsQmEKe5u8r3AjKQt5E= ; From: Brad Smith Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith Yup... I've done ONE spin... or my instructor did, because I asked him to show me. Yes, a 150 WILL flip on it's back and then enter the spin, or it sure feels that way anyhow. VERY disorienting! (but kinda fun too!) Years ago when I started aerobatic training, of which I did little, My instructor insisted in starting with spin entries. Being a new private pilot I knew everything about spins. We had done them in our training. Well guess what; I didn't know squat. He showed me the typical low level spin entries that kill people, steep turn, too slow cross controlled. Who knew a 150 would flip over on it's back to enter a spin (top rudder to keep the nose up) or sneak in to a spin on the inside (bottom rudder to hurry the turn). Relevant spin training is important. Bob http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:39 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=Sc+QnzhD9XAth6l1cYfincAZ83IJOHiQrmrDeGY1fhEL5O8h4p20zztoNhAg7zSmksV78wAwGKu/alrkxtnUbWfvkEGd2lYLc8ZXSrJdm+/FW8Xlps5pjsRCVqo3kGx3K3w8Xh5tmtp4Di76UGVBF5hPioccZ2fjG+2P5oZpRP8= ; From: Brad Smith Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith Gents, I'm not looking to build a Piet, although I like the aircraft. I'm wanting to do a WWI replica, and need an inline engine, which is why I'm on here. I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have some questions if anyone can help. What is the reliability of this conversion like? I'm not talking about TBO, because as a "sport" flyer it will take several years of flying to matter. I mean is it reliable as long as it is maintained and within reasonable TBO limits? Has anyone hooked one up to measure static thrust? What prop size? How about weight of the conversion? Brad http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:56 PM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another landing gear question A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3) says "Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the flying strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of 45"/80.5"). Making the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it to the plans or maybe find another trig calculator? -- Rick Holland ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:12 PM PST US From: TBYH@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN Just got off the phone with Tiffany at Prairie Home Companion, Minnesota Public Radio. She called to interview me about my earliest memories of Prairie Home Companion. I heard some of the very first broadcasts in 1974. What they use of my interview will air in two weeks on the August 6th program. She was also interested in the fact that I'm building a Pietenpol Air Camper -- another Minnesota original, of course. Don't know if she'll use that on the air -- I quipped that someday we Piet builders may hold a Pietenpol fly in at Lake Wobegon. I'm sure they have some lovely grass fields suitable for Piets to fly in and out of... ; ) Anyway, tune in to PHC on Saturday, August 6 at 5:00 p.m. CDST. See you all at Brodhead a week from yesterday/today! Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:25 PM PST US From: Rick Holland Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another landing gear question Sorry, never mind, I should have checked the archives first, looks like 30 degrees is correct. do not archive On 7/16/05, Rick Holland wrote: > > A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3) > says "Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the > flying strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of 45"/80.5"). > Making the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it to > the plans or maybe find another trig calculator? > > -- > Rick Holland -- Rick Holland ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:11 PM PST US From: Ron Franck Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Seminars --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ron Franck There was some recent discussion about what might be a good topic for a seminar at Brodhead. I know time is growing short ,so maybe next year, but I don't have a clue as to how to use plasti-gage during engine assembly, specifically a corvair engine. It would be great to see it actually used and perhaps some discussion as to how to correct a situation where the fit-up is out of tolerance. Any takers? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:09 PM PST US ETAtAhQn14TlDILg4FFAhbDNnXpZ5kh9UQIVAJqci4DYzsCfox4f75q3lS7HROw8 From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. 2005 10:36:29 -0700 (PDT) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Brad: I can't answer your question, but all I know is that some guys fly the heck out of the Ford As, reliably, and others have nothing but problems with it and end up replacing the "A" with a Cont. aircraft engine. Leon S. Praying for a successful Model A---but have a Cont. A-65 waiting in the wings just n case. PS Get hold of Ken Perkins ( Ford A guru. Usually at Brodhead) I don't have his address, Perhaps someone else has it. Good luck. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:33 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=IdY7wq4Xe4OzzaaDD9faI3Z5SQr+mr3iegroNh0pE6T/ruOiQ2S1fZPMAlyVtWkIuo1lcWmaLpdL/+mIb50CUTiu3jadHiOx0m+gX4LON0pf1NzKCW1Y3hjEfpXtn4Qo7bLCgp6xWR5nn4mJX01jsNIWskw/4otwM/yrOsIGuBQ= ; From: Larry Nelson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking that the field is "closed" during some part of the day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed runways"????? Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the airport "closing"???? Larry Nelson Springfield, MO Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH 1963 GMC 4106-1618 SV/ Spirit of America ARS WB0JOT ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:30 PM PST US From: "Michael Turrell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and being 6'1" tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit from the extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can be purchased from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don Pietenpol has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" longer for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where do I order this from? Thanks in advance. This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and enjoying it immensely. Regadrs,Mike Turrell ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:01 PM PST US d="scan'208,217"; a="1320492468:sNHT32890178" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage Mike, the 172 3/8" long fuselage plans are available from Don pietenpol. he might refer to it as the Corvair fuselage. If you talk to him, he will know what you mean. chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Turrell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and being 6'1" tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit from the extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can be purchased from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don Pietenpol has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" longer for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where do I order this from? Thanks in advance. This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and enjoying it immensely. Regadrs,Mike Turrell ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:14 PM PST US d="scan'208"; a="1172103579:sNHT22636930" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Larry, They usually close the NW/SE runway and the NE/SW runway leaving the E/W runway at the airports north side open. I have never seen the airport closed for any reason during the flyin. The closed runways should be X'd off with a yellow X at each end. I believe the E/W is the longest. Two years ago, it was incredible windy and hot and it got to the point where the E/W runway was unuseable for almost all aircraft which created problems for arrivals. As a result, they opened the NE/SW runway. It was so windy, it only took a few hundred feet to roll out so it did not impinge too much on normal operations. Cheers, Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Nelson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson > > > Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am > flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking > that the field is "closed" during some part of the > day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed > runways"????? > > Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the > airport "closing"???? > > Larry Nelson > Springfield, MO > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH > 1963 GMC 4106-1618 > SV/ Spirit of America > ARS WB0JOT > > __________________________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:48 PM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=RamG2XTTI1m4TVS/Z/EQZcYorT6R0vV2T02k6xF8f8h20QDEDPd/LgfyXnnWuEeA4nAojumQSvLiQU9aUpmsKZrAH0VKzoupSyet1p4H6WKD1BWAA/Bgn1d6Sp+tnMSyPNsZdDcUZ50VoLnAQCBCMwZylRM8gWmG9DuzddkkPD8= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson Brad, I'm building a 75% scale Curtiss Jenny of sorts and will be powering it with a converted Model A. Though I haven't flown behind the "A" I've heard good things about them. Ken Perkins is building my engine for me and he is tops. The engine has been used to power Pietenpols since the late 1920's and is a sound engine if converted properly. What kind of plane are your building, if I may ask? I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have > some questions if anyone can help. > > How about weight of the conversion? I think mine is supposed to put out 72 hp (with the high compression pistons and other modifications and is supposed to weigh around 210 lbs or so. > >Doc H. > > > > ____________________________________________________ > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:39 PM PST US From: Javier Cruz Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence hlink.net> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz Hi Friends This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this time i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico City, please advice me..... Javier Cruz ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:30 PM PST US d="scan'208"; a="1013346318:sNHT49400122" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Javier, We will look for you! Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Javier Cruz" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz > > Hi Friends > > This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight > reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this time > i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico > City, please advice me..... > Javier Cruz > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:39 PM PST US d="jpg'145?scan'145,208,217,145"; a="1230876898:sNHT77332064" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted Fred, I will be flying overhead La Crosse on the way from Minneapolis to Brodhead. Look for me! Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: Christian Bobka To: TBYH@aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:35 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted Fred, Look for me with a pile of drawings next weekend at Brodhead. I would like you to see the plans for the Flitzer variants which you may really like better than the Pietenpol. I will have them with me to show to Larry Williams. It is the same construction style as the Pietenpol except that the design will fit you, yet it is small, and it looks cool. Engine choices range from VW to Corvair to Continental A-65 through O-200 and also the Rotec R2800 radial.... http://www.av8rblake.com/flitzer/ There are a multitude of single seat variants and one two seater.... Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:37 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be surprised if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much closer to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee. Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in an SNJ with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my Father's Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great experience and I recommend it! Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best friends was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too steep turn-to-final approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I did was stalls, power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated stalls. In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the nose down, of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it happened so fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was inverted, looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what inattentive flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no problem...however, recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this stall/spin at 800 or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or shall I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor were killed -- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy. You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this past May -- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock and his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) Wasn't the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and Harvard operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind what Assen Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never stall close to the ground!" Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather we've been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a week now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks! BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they want to sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week at Brodhead! And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc Superbug VW engine, let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but came back to the Piet). Fred B. La Crosse, WI