---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/18/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:09 AM - Re: Engine questions continued... (Galen Hutcheson) 2. 06:24 AM - Re: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN (John Ford) 3. 06:27 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/17/05 (Brad Smith) 4. 10:25 AM - playing with the mixture control (Michael D Cuy) 5. 10:42 AM - Ford "A" engine (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 10:52 AM - Re: Ford "A" engine (Phillips, Jack) 7. 10:55 AM - Re: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN (Gordon Bowen) 8. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 (Carl Vought) 9. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 (Waytogopiet@aol.com) 10. 02:31 PM - Wobegon to Possum Lodge first international air race (BernadetteTS) 11. 04:00 PM - Re: Ford "A" engine (John Dilatush) 12. 04:44 PM - Re: Ford "A" engine (Christian Bobka) 13. 06:18 PM - Re: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan (Rcaprd@aol.com) 14. 07:21 PM - Eyebrow Patterns (Jim Cooper) 15. 08:59 PM - Ground angle (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:11 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ax53b/YIYqBOKSrom2nbUqa+5FXo+bDaUXtz5iGfly5fjMrA/9WaHe+47TfwFNBVadpAJGDO5qgZkrfJtMMu8gaGC++fEB3fjHcOXv1IuapRHxFFqA2EC/1JZ7QktR7RSpQkOYwZN2MELw9knQqf0DcZDeOT/jusYVYSLz/vqYg= ; From: Galen Hutcheson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine questions continued... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson --- Brad Smith wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith > > > > Albatros DIII. Sounds like a fun plane to build. I have a friend who is building a Nieuport replica. > > Funny as it sounds, I just can't find a modern > engine > as well suited, at least in a direct-drive > application. Should come in around 500# empty and > 800-850# gross, so I think we're ok with the model > A. The Model A should handle that size nicely. > > Interesting... that is even lighter than I thought. > Are you using an aluminum head? What other sorts of > mods? Are you running insert bearings? What RPM is > that HP figure for? Have you figured out the proper > prop size yet? It does have the aluminum heads and higher compression pistons. It has a Model B grind on the cam, inserts on the bearings and copper babbiting. Ken builds a larger water pump I think. It runs a Slick mag too. Of course it has the internal pressure oiling and the usual mods for flight. The prop flying on Ken's Piet, which has the same engine he's building for me, has a Falin 77 1/4 inch by I think 44 or 47 pitch. It turns 1800 rpms static and 2250 rpms in climb. These are Ken's stats. I'm not sure I can use that prop since I have a totally different airplane, but that will be a starting point. Hope this as been of some help and I will be happy to answer any questions you have if I can. Are you building from plans or is it your own design? I am doing my on engineering so it is taking me a little longer. Doc H. > > > > ____________________________________________________ > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:07 AM PST US From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" Ah Gordon... Homer, where you can't see the West end of the runway from the East end! I used to fly a c150, c152 and Cherokee 180 down there from Merrill on the weekends with my wife. It's where she learned to hitchhike (nobody would ever stop for me - too ugly). What a wonderful, wonderful place... John John Ford john@indstate.edu 812-237-8542 "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." -- Albert Einstein >>> gbowen@ptialaska.net Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:04:09 PM >>> Garrison K, Prairie Home and PBS are the only entertaining counterbalance we get here in AK, considering our daily dose of 3 hrs of Rush's "news" talk commerical radio. If there's to be a fly-in at Lake Wobegon, count me in even if I have to commerical fly down to FL and get ole quasi-Piete N-1033B. I'll be listening on 6 August, just like every saturday. "We'll keep the light on for you", Tom Bodette got his start in radio here in Homer as a volunteer for our local PBS. Gordon Bowen Homer AK ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Markle To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 6:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN What hoot! Well, I've marked my calendar! This is neat..... Having Powdermilk Buscuits....heavens their tasty....... sponsor my Air Camper (the way companies sponsored airplanes in the 20'-30's) would be a dream come true!!! :-) JM ----- Original Message ----- From: TBYH@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:36 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN Just got off the phone with Tiffany at Prairie Home Companion, Minnesota Public Radio. She called to interview me about my earliest memories of Prairie Home Companion. I heard some of the very first broadcasts in 1974. What they use of my interview will air in two weeks on the August 6th program. She was also interested in the fact that I'm building a Pietenpol Air Camper -- another Minnesota original, of course. Don't know if she'll use that on the air -- I quipped that someday we Piet builders may hold a Pietenpol fly in at Lake Wobegon. I'm sure they have some lovely grass fields suitable for Piets to fly in and out of... ; ) Anyway, tune in to PHC on Saturday, August 6 at 5:00 p.m. CDST. See you all at Brodhead a week from yesterday/today! Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:52 AM PST US s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=popazjXjzISY9OWez6NezfCsqAkFSBUnYqUxUE4A8GBEcy0VGSRN/C1YGWdsvpyreI0+iszseM/4wX8YgcPitpGkE4VDBs9srLuxupK1YLVQxML3Ml/7BtVGZf92WGlT2pqynOLERO0oYuI/HYyuKo5VzbogGZdLvoS6WTcz4aA= ; From: Brad Smith Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 07/17/05 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith >The typical model A prop seems to be a 76 x 42 or a >44. I have the former on my A. They tend to spin >this prop from 1700 to 1850 static, depending on >the engine. Mine has a weber carb and some other >things done and spins at 1900 to 1950 static (on a >cool day). That is good info. It helps me know more about how much thrust they are making. Sounds like they move some air... >I really researched the A before I went that >direction, by interviewing as many people who >have actually flown behind them and thus had real >experience. I can email you my interviews if you >like. Most people were happy, the ones that >experienced problems were ALWAYS accessories, >except for someone who used an improperly repaired >crank, and a prop that flew off which upon >inspection had been flying on two bolts for some >time. Fuel seems to be the most common problem, > and icing. Accessories is not an issue for me... I'm thinking a mag (maybe 2, since there is an aluminum 2-plug head available!) and that's it. I might add a water pump since they don't use one normally... but maybe not. I would like to have a starter, but don't want an electrical system... so I might try to copy the chainsaw starters from the "Dawn Patrol" guys and adapt it to Model A use- but then again maybe not. I WOULD like to see those interviews if you don't mind. >It's a good engine, produces 35 to 40 hp stock, and >up to 65 from guys like Perkins or Ron Kelly. Hmmm... that would probably work! 65 is better than 40, but even 40 might do the trick with that big stick on the front. >I myself just finished a chevy inline six conversion >with a planetary redrive to reproduce the performance >of the 185 Mercedes DIII of 1918. >It'll spin the original 9 foot prop at the correct >1600 rpm. Can send photos of that too. I'm thinking >of an Albatross DII for this one, as soon as my Piet >is done (hopefully this year, in time for Brodhead 06) Thanks Douwe, the info is very helpful. I'd be interested in seeing the Chevy too. Interestingly, one of the guys on the Baslee builders' list and on the Nieuport lists is doing a Ford 6 conversion with a planetary drive. He's putting it in a 7/8 Fokker DVII. Brad http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:59 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: playing with the mixture control FAMILY> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Chuck G.....did you get to do any experiments with your mixture control on your Stromberg ? I did ground tests Sunday with full power, full rich, then slowly leaned out the mixture and got an initial rise from 2150 rpm static but on subsequent leanings that didn't occur. I was surprised to see how far I had to move the mixture arm though to get the rpm's to drop off. Wired it back to 'almost full rich'. Only reason I'm tinkering is that even after setting the float level I'm producing dusty black chalk in the exhaust pipes.....and on all 8 plugs. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:56 AM PST US From: "Oscar Zuniga" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Maybe somebody has already posted this, but in case not- there is an excellent write-up on testing and modifying the A engine, at this link: http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html I pass this along in part due to the recent posts in connection with the A engine, but also somewhat in response to John Dilatush's recent analysis of service ceiling for the Piet. In that quick analysis, John used an assumption for horsepower required to keep the Piet aloft and I raised an eyebrow at the value he stated (was it 45 HP?), knowing that the Fords that were used in the first Piets didn't have a prayer of putting out that kind of HP because of this statement from the link given above: "This carefully rebuilt, completely stock Ford Model "A" engine produced only 35.6 HP @ 2250 RPM!". My other eyebrow raised because I thought there was a definition of "service ceiling" that said it was the altitude above which an aircraft could not maintain some nominal rate of climb (was it 50 FPM? 100?)... not zero rate of climb as you would think. Not to impugn John... but simply to encourage more fireside chat here, regarding performance with different engines. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Service Ceiling is defined as the point where a plane cannot maintain a rate of climb of at least 100 fpm. For my somewhat heavy Continental 65 powered Piet my calculations indicate that would be somewhere around 7500 feet on a "standard day (62 F at sea level, with pressure 29.92"). I think we could stretch the definition somewhat for Pietenpols since the best rate of climb I've seen out of mine on a cold day was about 400 fpm and in the summer I'm lucky to get 250 fpm. Stopping the climb at 100 fpm would be like saying an RV-4 was at its service ceiling when it couldn't do better than 500 fpm (25% of its sea level ROC) Jack Phillips Praying for good weather to get over the mountains to Brodhead on Friday --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" Maybe somebody has already posted this, but in case not- there is an excellent write-up on testing and modifying the A engine, at this link: http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html I pass this along in part due to the recent posts in connection with the A engine, but also somewhat in response to John Dilatush's recent analysis of service ceiling for the Piet. In that quick analysis, John used an assumption for horsepower required to keep the Piet aloft and I raised an eyebrow at the value he stated (was it 45 HP?), knowing that the Fords that were used in the first Piets didn't have a prayer of putting out that kind of HP because of this statement from the link given above: "This carefully rebuilt, completely stock Ford Model "A" engine produced only 35.6 HP @ 2250 RPM!". My other eyebrow raised because I thought there was a definition of "service ceiling" that said it was the altitude above which an aircraft could not maintain some nominal rate of climb (was it 50 FPM? 100?)... not zero rate of climb as you would think. Not to impugn John... but simply to encourage more fireside chat here, regarding performance with different engines. Oscar Zuniga San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:39 AM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" John, It's still a long hike from the airport or Beluga Lake float plane base to the end of the spit. You never needed to see the other end of the runway as long as you keep the nose lined up on the volcano aross Cook Inlet 80 miles away. We're not hitchhiking (summer kids cuttin' fish at the salmon processing plant still are) as much now the road has a paved hiking trail that you can rollerblade or bike from your plane to the harbor. This concession to modernization helped cut down on the number of aviators/fishermen being run over by 40' touristy motorhomes, driven by guys in there 80's.. Still a wonderful place that god spends his summers and the devil spends the winter. We'll keep the light on for you--------Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Ford" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Ford" > > Ah Gordon... > > Homer, where you can't see the West end of the runway from the East > end! I used to fly a c150, c152 and Cherokee 180 down there from > Merrill on the weekends with my wife. It's where she learned to > hitchhike (nobody would ever stop for me - too ugly). What a wonderful, > wonderful place... > > John > > John Ford > john@indstate.edu > 812-237-8542 > "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." > -- Albert Einstein > > >>> gbowen@ptialaska.net Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:04:09 PM >>> > Garrison K, Prairie Home and PBS are the only entertaining > counterbalance we get here in AK, considering our daily dose of 3 hrs of > Rush's "news" talk commerical radio. If there's to be a fly-in at Lake > Wobegon, count me in even if I have to commerical fly down to FL and get > ole quasi-Piete N-1033B. I'll be listening on 6 August, just like every > saturday. "We'll keep the light on for you", Tom Bodette got his start > in radio here in Homer as a volunteer for our local PBS. > Gordon Bowen Homer AK > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Markle > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 6:33 AM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN > > > What hoot! Well, I've marked my calendar! This is neat..... > > Having Powdermilk Buscuits....heavens their tasty....... sponsor my > Air Camper (the way companies sponsored airplanes in the 20'-30's) would > be a dream come true!!! :-) > > JM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: TBYH@aol.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:36 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN > > > Just got off the phone with Tiffany at Prairie Home Companion, > Minnesota Public Radio. She called to interview me about my earliest > memories of Prairie Home Companion. I heard some of the very first > broadcasts in 1974. What they use of my interview will air in two weeks > on the August 6th program. She was also interested in the fact that I'm > building a Pietenpol Air Camper -- another Minnesota original, of > course. Don't know if she'll use that on the air -- I quipped that > someday we Piet builders may hold a Pietenpol fly in at Lake Wobegon. > I'm sure they have some lovely grass fields suitable for Piets to fly in > and out of... ; ) > > Anyway, tune in to PHC on Saturday, August 6 at 5:00 p.m. CDST. > > See you all at Brodhead a week from yesterday/today! > > Fred B. > La Crosse, WI > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:51 PM PST US From: "Carl Vought" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Carl Vought" Hi Douwe... I haven't seen you on the list for awhile----Glad to hear something from you. If you would include me in that emailing of the interviews of A-Model users, I'd appreciate that very much. I bought one of the dual ignition aluminum heads and I'm working on a dual mag installation. The Chevy six sounds interesting. Do you know about a man named Ryder (Frank I think). He had a WWI museum in Guntersville, AL about 30 miles away. He had a beautiful Albitross in his collection. However, it was powered with a Ford Pinto engine which wasn't enough. Ryder and his family were killed in a crash near Chicago (icing) several years ago. I don't know the disposition of his collection, but if you're interested, I could find out. Carl Original Message ----- From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Douwe Blumberg" > > Hey Brad, > > The typical model A prop seems to be a 76 x 42 or a 44. I have the former > on my A. They tend to spin this prop from 1700 to 1850 static, depending > on the engine. Mine has a weber carb and some other things done and spins > at 1900 to 1950 static (on a cool day). > > I really researched the A before I went that direction, by interviewing as > many people who have actually flown behind them and thus had real > experience. I can email you my interviews if you like. Most people were > happy, the ones that experienced problems were ALWAYS accessories, except > for someone who used an improperly repaired crank, and a prop that flew off > which upon inspection had been flying on two bolts for some time. Fuel > seems to be the most common problem, and icing. > > It's a good engine, produces 35 to 40 hp stock, and up to 65 from guys like > Perkins or Ron Kelly. > > > I myself just finished a chevy inline six conversion with a planetary > redrive to reproduce the performance of the 185 Mercedes DIII of 1918. > It'll spin the original 9 foot prop at the correct 1600 rpm. Can send > photos of that too. I'm thinking of an Albatross DII for this one, as soon > as my Piet is done (hopefully this year, in time for Brodhead 06) > > Good Luck! > Douwe > douweblumberg@earthlink.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pietenpol-List Digest Server" > To: "Pietenpol-List Digest List" > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:56 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 > > > > * > > > > ================================================== > > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > > ================================================== > > > > Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the > > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > > of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > > > HTML Version: > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2005-07-16.html > > > > Text Version: > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list/Digest.Pietenpol-List.2005-07-16.txt > > > > > > ================================================ > > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > > ================================================ > > > > > > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > > --- > > Total Messages Posted Sat 07/16/05: 17 > > > > > > Today's Message Index: > > ---------------------- > > > > 1. 07:41 AM - Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (TBYH@AOL.COM) > > 2. 10:24 AM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Galen > Hutcheson) > > 3. 10:36 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 (Brad > Smith) > > 4. 10:39 AM - Engine question of another sort. (Brad Smith) > > 5. 12:44 PM - Another landing gear question (Rick Holland) > > 6. 12:46 PM - Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN (TBYH@aol.com) > > 7. 12:51 PM - Re: Another landing gear question (Rick Holland) > > 8. 01:56 PM - Brodhead Seminars (Ron Franck) > > 9. 02:18 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. > (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) > > 10. 02:52 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Larry Nelson) > > 11. 04:25 PM - The longest fuselage (Michael Turrell) > > 12. 04:50 PM - Re: The longest fuselage (Christian Bobka) > > 13. 04:54 PM - Re: Brodhead Arrivals (Christian Bobka) > > 14. 08:49 PM - Re: Engine question of another sort. (Galen Hutcheson) > > 15. 09:53 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Javier Cruz) > > 16. 11:23 PM - Re: Brodhead Sustinence (Christian Bobka) > > 17. 11:37 PM - Re: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted (Christian > Bobka) > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 07:41:09 AM PST US > > From: TBYH@AOL.COM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted > > > > I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be > surprised > > if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much > closer > > > > to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee. > > > > Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in an > SNJ > > with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my > Father's > > Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great > > experience and I recommend it! > > > > Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best > > friends was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too > steep > > turn-to-final approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I > did was > > > > stalls, power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated > stalls. > > > > In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the > nose > > down, of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it > happened so > > > > fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was > > inverted, looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what > inattentive > > > > flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no > > problem...however, recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this > stall/spin > > at 800 > > or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or > > shall I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor > were killed > > > > -- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy. > > > > You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this past > May > > -- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock > and > > his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) > Wasn't > > the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and > > Harvard operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind > what > > > > Assen Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never > stall > > > > close to the ground!" > > > > Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather > we've > > been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a > week > > now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks! > > > > BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they want to > > sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week > at > > Brodhead! And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc > Superbug VW > > > > engine, let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but > came > > > > back to the Piet). > > > > Fred B. > > La Crosse, WI > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 10:24:28 AM PST US > > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > > > b=NSGb+y3RYbJJ4ZruwJkKxRt+8nUJt2PMVnrxb3tWU32BbH6NXrzedtbubyr8i7gP86y7IfSTAi > 5afan3NpcoQvvgqnMii0/sAv6tQXspPWx6JW0lBIra7MJER1l5SEBq/UfSILFuIPqX/uSGuH18Dy > Aag8F8i8LBG/zViE1m0xc> > ; > > From: Galen Hutcheson > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > > > > > Fred, that was certainly sad news about that flight > > instructor and his student. That was one type of > > accident that can be easily avoided. Your SNJ > > instructor did the right thing taking you through all > > those stalls because a pilot must know what the plane > > he is flying feels like (note I didn't use the word > > "speed") just before it stalls. When I fly a new or > > different type of airplane, I always do a few stalls > > before attempting to land the thing. If I make any > > modification to an experimental plane, I repeat stall > > tests. Many pilots either don't know, or refuse to > > believe, that stalls can occur at any airspeed. The > > stall is entirely dependent on relative wind and angle > > of attack. The reason some pilots think that airspeed > > is involved in stalls, is because in order to maintain > > altitude at slow airspeed, you have to increase the > > angle of attack. I know this is old news for most of > > you, but this is a subject that needs to be addressed > > from time to time. Stalls and spins are directly > > linked. The plane has to have one wing stalled in > > order for the plane to spin. The reason for the spin > > is that the wing on the inside of the yaw turn (the > > side the rudder is pushed) reaches the critical angle > > of attack for the stall before the outside wing does. > > The inside wing has no lift, the outside wing has > > lift. This allows the lift on the outside wing to roll > > the plane in the direction of the spin. A snap roll > > is just a spin at a higher airspeed. The principle is > > the same. Far too many pilots (and passengers) are > > killed needlessly due to too many pilots not > > understanding the stall/spin phenomnen and, most > > importantly, not experienced in recovery from these > > flight attitudes. An approach to stall, which is > > being taught today, is no substitute for full stall > > training. Stall training needs to be taken one step > > further to spin training. This may be a dead horse > > I'm whipping, but I have felt this way for three > > decades of flying. > > > > Doc H. > > > > Do Not Archive > > > > --- TBYH@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of > > > flight instruction in an SNJ > > > with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. > > > Was basically my Father's > > > Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in > > > the front seat -- great > > > experience and I recommend it! > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred B. > > > La Crosse, WI > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 10:36:08 AM PST US > > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > > > b=Z/rJfghcfKZMeCC12RhQeHyaZCRW0XK5sswxKhInI5zHKrrxtA2agm5yjLh44273yZB3698wTe > sEfKoryM/ugHDy7IvNxmq5PO4Y6DE1QjQzsztqixtT6UVm9kCbjq1r+EWiIcTcUm1YypP/4fKh8V > CcgsQmEKe5u8r3AjKQt5E> > ; > > From: Brad Smith > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 07/15/05 > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith > > > > Yup... I've done ONE spin... or my instructor did, > > because I asked him to show me. Yes, a 150 WILL flip > > on it's back and then enter the spin, or it sure feels > > that way anyhow. VERY disorienting! (but kinda fun > > too!) > > > > > > Years ago when I started aerobatic training, of which > > I did little, My > > instructor insisted in starting with spin entries. > > Being a new private > > pilot I knew everything about spins. We had done them > > in our training. > > Well guess what; I didn't know squat. He showed me > > the typical low > > level > > spin entries that kill people, steep turn, too slow > > cross controlled. > > Who > > knew a 150 would flip over on it's back to enter a > > spin (top rudder to > > keep > > the nose up) or sneak in to a spin on the inside > > (bottom rudder to > > hurry the > > turn). Relevant spin training is important. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 10:39:39 AM PST US > > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > > > b=Sc+QnzhD9XAth6l1cYfincAZ83IJOHiQrmrDeGY1fhEL5O8h4p20zztoNhAg7zSmksV78wAwGK > u/alrkxtnUbWfvkEGd2lYLc8ZXSrJdm+/FW8Xlps5pjsRCVqo3kGx3K3w8Xh5tmtp4Di76UGVBF5 > hPioccZ2fjG+2P5oZpRP8> > ; > > From: Brad Smith > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith > > > > Gents, > > > > I'm not looking to build a Piet, although I like the > > aircraft. I'm wanting to do a WWI replica, and need > > an inline engine, which is why I'm on here. > > > > I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have > > some questions if anyone can help. > > > > What is the reliability of this conversion like? I'm > > not talking about TBO, because as a "sport" flyer it > > will take several years of flying to matter. I mean > > is it reliable as long as it is maintained and within > > reasonable TBO limits? > > > > Has anyone hooked one up to measure static thrust? > > What prop size? > > > > How about weight of the conversion? > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 12:44:56 PM PST US > > From: Rick Holland > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Another landing gear question > > > > A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3) > says > > "Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the flying > > strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of 45"/80.5"). Making > > the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it to the > plans > > or maybe find another trig calculator? > > > > -- > > Rick Holland > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 12:46:12 PM PST US > > From: TBYH@aol.com > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN > > > > > > Just got off the phone with Tiffany at Prairie Home Companion, Minnesota > > Public Radio. She called to interview me about my earliest memories of > Prairie > > > > Home Companion. I heard some of the very first broadcasts in 1974. What > they use > > > > of my interview will air in two weeks on the August 6th program. She was > also > > interested in the fact that I'm building a Pietenpol Air Camper -- another > > Minnesota original, of course. Don't know if she'll use that on the air -- > I > > quipped that someday we Piet builders may hold a Pietenpol fly in at Lake > Wobegon. > > > > I'm sure they have some lovely grass fields suitable for Piets to fly in > and > > out of... ; ) > > > > Anyway, tune in to PHC on Saturday, August 6 at 5:00 p.m. CDST. > > > > See you all at Brodhead a week from yesterday/today! > > > > Fred B. > > La Crosse, WI > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 12:51:25 PM PST US > > From: Rick Holland > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Another landing gear question > > > > Sorry, never mind, I should have checked the archives first, looks like 30 > > degrees is correct. > > > > do not archive > > > > On 7/16/05, Rick Holland wrote: > > > > > > A note on the bottom flying strut fitting plate (1934 plans drawing 3) > > > says "Bend Up 20 degrees Here". According to my precise calculations the > > > flying strut angle is actually close to 30 degrees (arctan of > 45"/80.5"). > > > Making the upper plate bend around 120 degrees. Should I just build it > to > > > the plans or maybe find another trig calculator? > > > > > > -- > > > Rick Holland > > > > > > -- > > Rick Holland > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 01:56:11 PM PST US > > From: Ron Franck > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Seminars > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Ron Franck > > > > There was some recent discussion about what might be a good topic for a > > seminar at Brodhead. > > I know time is growing short ,so maybe next year, but I don't have a clue > > as to how to use plasti-gage during engine assembly, specifically a > corvair > > engine. It would be great to see it actually used and perhaps some > > discussion as to how to correct a situation where the fit-up is out of > > tolerance. Any takers? > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 > _____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 02:18:09 PM PST US > > ETAtAhQn14TlDILg4FFAhbDNnXpZ5kh9UQIVAJqci4DYzsCfox4f75q3lS7HROw8 > > From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. > > 2005 10:36:29 -0700 (PDT) > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) > > > > Brad: I can't answer your question, but all I know is that some guys fly > > the heck out of the Ford As, reliably, and others have nothing but > > problems with it and end up replacing the "A" with a Cont. aircraft > > engine. Leon S. Praying for a successful Model A---but have a Cont. A-65 > > waiting in the wings just n case. PS Get hold of Ken Perkins ( Ford A > > guru. Usually at Brodhead) I don't have his address, Perhaps someone > > else has it. Good luck. Do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 02:52:33 PM PST US > > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > > > b=IdY7wq4Xe4OzzaaDD9faI3Z5SQr+mr3iegroNh0pE6T/ruOiQ2S1fZPMAlyVtWkIuo1lcWmaLp > dL/+mIb50CUTiu3jadHiOx0m+gX4LON0pf1NzKCW1Y3hjEfpXtn4Qo7bLCgp6xWR5nn4mJX01jsN > IWskw/4otwM/yrOsIGuBQ> > ; > > From: Larry Nelson > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson > > > > > > Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am > > flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking > > that the field is "closed" during some part of the > > day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed > > runways"????? > > > > Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the > > airport "closing"???? > > > > Larry Nelson > > Springfield, MO > > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A > > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH > > 1963 GMC 4106-1618 > > SV/ Spirit of America > > ARS WB0JOT > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 04:25:30 PM PST US > > From: "Michael Turrell" > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage > > > > It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and > being 6'1" > > tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit from > the > > extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can be > purchased > > from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don > Pietenpol > > has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" > longer > > for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where > > do I order this from? Thanks in advance. > > This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and > enjoying > > it immensely. > > Regadrs,Mike Turrell > > ________________________________ Message 12 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 04:50:01 PM PST US > > d="scan'208,217"; a="1320492468:sNHT32890178" > > From: "Christian Bobka" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage > > > > Mike, > > > > the 172 3/8" long fuselage plans are available from Don pietenpol. he > might refer > > to it as the Corvair fuselage. If you talk to him, he will know what you > > mean. > > > > chris > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Turrell > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 6:21 PM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: The longest fuselage > > > > > > It has been mentioned that there are plans for a 172 3/8" fuselage and > being > > 6'1" tall these are the plans I would like to purchase as I would benefit > from > > the extra leg room.The only thing is I have not read where this plan can > be purchased > > from.As I understand it there are 3 lengths to choose from and Don > Pietenpol > > has the original or short for the Ford "A" engine and one that is 6" > longer > > for the A65 and corvair engine.If there is indeed a longest fuselage,where > > do I order this from? Thanks in advance. > > This is a great site,I have been working my way through the archives and > enjoying > > it immensely. > > Regadrs,Mike Turrell > > ________________________________ Message 13 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 04:54:14 PM PST US > > d="scan'208"; a="1172103579:sNHT22636930" > > From: "Christian Bobka" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > > > > Larry, > > > > They usually close the NW/SE runway and the NE/SW runway leaving the E/W > > runway at the airports north side open. I have never seen the airport > > closed for any reason during the flyin. The closed runways should be X'd > > off with a yellow X at each end. I believe the E/W is the longest. Two > > years ago, it was incredible windy and hot and it got to the point where > the > > E/W runway was unuseable for almost all aircraft which created problems > for > > arrivals. As a result, they opened the NE/SW runway. It was so windy, it > > only took a few hundred feet to roll out so it did not impinge too much on > > normal operations. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Chris > > > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Larry Nelson" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Arrivals > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Larry Nelson > > > > > > > > > > Last year I arrived by bus/motorhome. This year I am > > > flying in on Friday afternoon. Am I wrong in thinking > > > that the field is "closed" during some part of the > > > day, or am I confusing that concept with the "closed > > > runways"????? > > > > > > Should be arriving before 5pm. Anyone recall the > > > airport "closing"???? > > > > > > Larry Nelson > > > Springfield, MO > > > Beechcraft Bonanza V-35B N2980A > > > Pietenpol Air Camper N444MH > > > 1963 GMC 4106-1618 > > > SV/ Spirit of America > > > ARS WB0JOT > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 08:49:48 PM PST US > > s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; > > > b=RamG2XTTI1m4TVS/Z/EQZcYorT6R0vV2T02k6xF8f8h20QDEDPd/LgfyXnnWuEeA4nAojumQSv > LiQU9aUpmsKZrAH0VKzoupSyet1p4H6WKD1BWAA/Bgn1d6Sp+tnMSyPNsZdDcUZ50VoLnAQCBCMw > ZylRM8gWmG9DuzddkkPD8> > ; > > From: Galen Hutcheson > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine question of another sort. > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson > > > > > Brad, I'm building a 75% scale Curtiss Jenny of sorts > > and will be powering it with a converted Model A. > > Though I haven't flown behind the "A" I've heard good > > things about them. Ken Perkins is building my engine > > for me and he is tops. The engine has been used to > > power Pietenpols since the late 1920's and is a sound > > engine if converted properly. What kind of plane are > > your building, if I may ask? > > > > I'm interested in the Model A conversion, and have > > > some questions if anyone can help. > > > > > > How about weight of the conversion? > > > > I think mine is supposed to put out 72 hp (with the > > high compression pistons and other modifications and > > is supposed to weigh around 210 lbs or so. > > > > > >Doc H. > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > > Subscriptions page, > > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 09:53:39 PM PST US > > From: Javier Cruz > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence > > hlink.net> > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz > > > > Hi Friends > > > > This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight > > reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this > time > > i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico > > City, please advice me..... > > Javier Cruz > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 11:23:30 PM PST US > > d="scan'208"; a="1013346318:sNHT49400122" > > From: "Christian Bobka" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > > > > Javier, > > > > We will look for you! > > > > Chris > > > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Javier Cruz" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Sustinence > > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Javier Cruz > > > > > > Hi Friends > > > > > > This year give me the chance for visit Brodhead and OSK..i have flight > > > reservations, just waiting for me chief sign my vacationes, maybe this > > time > > > i can see a flying Piet... if something here needs something from Mexico > > > City, please advice me..... > > > Javier Cruz > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 > ____________________________________ > > > > > > Time: 11:37:39 PM PST US > > d="jpg'145?scan'145,208,217,145"; a="1230876898:sNHT77332064" > > From: "Christian Bobka" > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted > > > > Fred, > > > > I will be flying overhead La Crosse on the way from Minneapolis to > Brodhead. Look > > for me! > > > > Chris > > > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Christian Bobka > > To: TBYH@aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:35 AM > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted > > > > > > Fred, > > > > Look for me with a pile of drawings next weekend at Brodhead. I would > like you > > to see the plans for the Flitzer variants which you may really like better > > than the Pietenpol. I will have them with me to show to Larry Williams. > > > > It is the same construction style as the Pietenpol except that the > design will > > fit you, yet it is small, and it looks cool. Engine choices range from VW > to > > Corvair to Continental A-65 through O-200 and also the Rotec R2800 > radial.... > > > > http://www.av8rblake.com/flitzer/ > > > > There are a multitude of single seat variants and one two seater.... > > > > Chris > > > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: TBYH@aol.com > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:37 AM > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead, Spins, Piet Parts wanted > > > > > > I don't know if Janesville, Wis., still has air service -- I'd be > surprised > > if they didn't. American Eagle or one of the other commuter lines. Much > closer > > to Brodhead than O'Hare or Milwaukee. > > > > Spins. Two years ago I signed up for an hour of flight instruction in > an SNJ > > with the Warbird Adventure folks in Kissimmee, FL. Was basically my > Father's > > Day gift for the next 10 years! They stick you in the front seat -- great > experience > > and I recommend it! > > > > Anyway, my dad had flown SNJs at Pensacola in 1950 and one of his best > friends > > was killed in what sounds to me like the classic too slow, too steep > turn-to-final > > approach situation. The first thing my WA instructor and I did was stalls, > > power on/power off, flaps/gear up and down and then accelerated stalls. > > In a turn to the left, when the stall broke you could recover with the > nose down, > > of course, and the wings essentially level. To the right, it happened so > > fast -- the right wing snapped underneath and the next thing I knew, I was > inverted, > > looking "up" at the ground...a dramatic demonstration of what inattentive > > flying can do. Of course, we were at 5000 feet and recovery was no > problem...however, > > recovery did use up about 1500 feet. Imagine this stall/spin at 800 > > or 1000 feet -- the math is quite easy -- you come up about 700 feet -- or > shall > > I say six feet -- short! Both my dad's friend and his instructor were > killed > > -- said they were both splattered on the inside of the canopy. > > > > You may have heard that Warbird Adventures had a fatal accident this > past May > > -- lost a wing on one of their SNJs and killed instructor John Hedgecock > and > > his "student." (I had met John when I was there -- wonderful person!) > Wasn't > > the plane I flew, but resulting in an emergency AD for all T-6, SNJ, and > Harvard > > operators to inspect wing attach fittings. Anyway, brings to mind what > Assen > > Jordanoff wrote in one of his books, "Never, never ever, ever, never stall > > close to the ground!" > > > > Looking forward to Brodhead next weekend -- hopefully the warm weather > we've > > been having in Wisconsin will break by then -- mid-90s for more than a > week > > now. Of course, that's a cool wave for you Arizona or West Texas folks! > > > > BTW, if anyone has good metal fittings, parts for a Piet that they > want to > > sell, let me know and if it fits my budget, we can make a deal next week > at Brodhead! > > And if anyone is looking for a good, rebuildable 1600cc Superbug VW > engine, > > let me know (I was once considering building a VP Volksplane, but came > > back to the Piet). > > > > Fred B. > > La Crosse, WI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:43 PM PST US From: Waytogopiet@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 17 Msgs - 07/16/05 Douwe, I, too would appreciate the email with comments on the 'A'. I was only seeing 1600 static and.. the first couple of flights were ...well, let's say interesting ! I have since installed a 5.5-1 cast iron head and am seeing 1750 static, but due to weather and other diversions have not had a chance to see what it will do with my 76/42 prop unloaded. The other 'A' powered owners comments should be helpful Thanks Don Hicks ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:48 PM PST US From: BernadetteTS Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wobegon to Possum Lodge first international air race --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS >From: "Jim Markle" >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Fly In at Lake Wobegon, MN > >What hoot! Well, I've marked my calendar! This is neat..... > >Having Powdermilk Buscuits....heavens their tasty....... sponsor my Air Camper >(the way companies sponsored airplanes in the 20'-30's) would be a dream come >true!!! :-) >JM > If there is a Prarie Home Companion sponsered Aircamper, perhaps we can get Red Green to sponser a Canadian entry and have an international air race. DocFont The Possum Lodge, Canadian pilot's oath; I'm a pilot, I can fly, if I have to, I guess. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:28 PM PST US From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillips, Jack" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine ================================ Jack and Oscar, I estimate that the power to keep a Piet aloft at 10,000 feet should be about 45 hp. Power required to maintain flight increases somewhat with altitude, but have no formula for this, if there is one. So I have guessed at the 45 hp number. And of course the weight of the plane is a major factor and I again assumed that Chuck would be at about 900 lbs solo. The main point to realize is that you lose about 3% of your SL hp for each 1,000 feet of altitude. So at 10,000 feet Chuck loses almost 20 hp leaving only about 45 hp! In estimating the ceiling for Chuck's 65 hp Piet, I assumed this would be the absolute, staggering, button biting, "Oh my God!" max altitude possible, not the officially defined service ceiling which is 100 fpm rate of climb still available for the plane. I just assumed standard temp and pressure. It will be interesting to hear from him when he has tried it, supposedly this last weekend. John ===================================== > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > > > Service Ceiling is defined as the point where a plane cannot maintain a > rate of climb of at least 100 fpm. For my somewhat heavy Continental 65 > powered Piet my calculations indicate that would be somewhere around > 7500 feet on a "standard day (62 F at sea level, with pressure 29.92"). > I think we could stretch the definition somewhat for Pietenpols since > the best rate of climb I've seen out of mine on a cold day was about 400 > fpm and in the summer I'm lucky to get 250 fpm. Stopping the climb at > 100 fpm would be like saying an RV-4 was at its service ceiling when it > couldn't do better than 500 fpm (25% of its sea level ROC) > > Jack Phillips > Praying for good weather to get over the mountains to Brodhead on Friday > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > Maybe somebody has already posted this, but in case not- there is an > excellent write-up on testing and modifying the A engine, at this link: > http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html > > I pass this along in part due to the recent posts in connection with the > A > engine, but also somewhat in response to John Dilatush's recent analysis > of > service ceiling for the Piet. In that quick analysis, John used an > assumption for horsepower required to keep the Piet aloft and I raised > an > eyebrow at the value he stated (was it 45 HP?), knowing that the Fords > that > were used in the first Piets didn't have a prayer of putting out that > kind > of HP because of this statement from the link given above: > "This carefully rebuilt, completely stock Ford Model "A" engine produced > > only 35.6 HP @ 2250 RPM!". My other eyebrow raised because I thought > there > was a definition of "service ceiling" that said it was the altitude > above > which an aircraft could not maintain some nominal rate of climb (was it > 50 > FPM? 100?)... not zero rate of climb as you would think. > > Not to impugn John... but simply to encourage more fireside chat here, > regarding performance with different engines. > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:18 PM PST US d="scan'208"; a="1312881144:sNHT23197360" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Why is it that when you get up around 5 to 6 thousand feet, that you suddenly realize that you are pretty high and that you could get hurt if you fall? Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Dilatush" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phillips, Jack" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:48 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine > ================================ > Jack and Oscar, > > I estimate that the power to keep a Piet aloft at 10,000 feet should be > about 45 hp. Power required to maintain flight increases somewhat with > altitude, but have no formula for this, if there is one. So I have guessed > at the 45 hp number. And of course the weight of the plane is a major > factor and I again assumed that Chuck would be at about 900 lbs solo. The > main point to realize is that you lose about 3% of your SL hp for each 1,000 > feet of altitude. So at 10,000 feet Chuck loses almost 20 hp leaving only > about 45 hp! > > In estimating the ceiling for Chuck's 65 hp Piet, I assumed this would be > the absolute, staggering, button biting, "Oh my God!" max altitude possible, > not the officially defined service ceiling which is 100 fpm rate of climb > still available for the plane. I just assumed standard temp and pressure. > It will be interesting to hear from him when he has tried it, supposedly > this last weekend. > > John > ===================================== > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" > > > > > > Service Ceiling is defined as the point where a plane cannot maintain a > > rate of climb of at least 100 fpm. For my somewhat heavy Continental 65 > > powered Piet my calculations indicate that would be somewhere around > > 7500 feet on a "standard day (62 F at sea level, with pressure 29.92"). > > I think we could stretch the definition somewhat for Pietenpols since > > the best rate of climb I've seen out of mine on a cold day was about 400 > > fpm and in the summer I'm lucky to get 250 fpm. Stopping the climb at > > 100 fpm would be like saying an RV-4 was at its service ceiling when it > > couldn't do better than 500 fpm (25% of its sea level ROC) > > > > Jack Phillips > > Praying for good weather to get over the mountains to Brodhead on Friday > > > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > > > > Maybe somebody has already posted this, but in case not- there is an > > excellent write-up on testing and modifying the A engine, at this link: > > http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html > > > > I pass this along in part due to the recent posts in connection with the > > A > > engine, but also somewhat in response to John Dilatush's recent analysis > > of > > service ceiling for the Piet. In that quick analysis, John used an > > assumption for horsepower required to keep the Piet aloft and I raised > > an > > eyebrow at the value he stated (was it 45 HP?), knowing that the Fords > > that > > were used in the first Piets didn't have a prayer of putting out that > > kind > > of HP because of this statement from the link given above: > > "This carefully rebuilt, completely stock Ford Model "A" engine produced > > > > only 35.6 HP @ 2250 RPM!". My other eyebrow raised because I thought > > there > > was a definition of "service ceiling" that said it was the altitude > > above > > which an aircraft could not maintain some nominal rate of climb (was it > > 50 > > FPM? 100?)... not zero rate of climb as you would think. > > > > Not to impugn John... but simply to encourage more fireside chat here, > > regarding performance with different engines. > > > > Oscar Zuniga > > San Antonio, TX > > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:42 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan In a message dated 7/18/2005 2:30:26 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov writes: Chuck G.....did you get to do any experiments with your mixture control on your Stromberg ? I still haven't got to flight test my mixture control. It usually takes me at least twice as long as I anticipate it should take. I built a bracket, and arm...twice. Also, In preparation of my trek to Brodhead, I installed the CHT / EGT, painted the exhaust, improved the carb heat muff, re-secured a lot of cables & wires under the cowl - using the double Adel Clamp method, re-secured wiring in the instrument panel, installed a few more cockpit amenities, changed the front windshield, building hard points for the Pig Bombs, plus quite a bit of routine maintenance. I'm off work tomorrow, so I can finish up the loose ends, but everything is pretty much buttoned up. Well...I'll just do this, or do that before I take 'er back up. It just goes on and on !! I'm going to 'Stretch 'er Legs' at some higher altitudes, on this cross country, as opposed to how I did a lot of the trip the past two summers...airport hopping about every hour or two. I'll keep a close eye on fuel burn, if I'm not shivering too much up there !! I'm planning on Wednesday morning departure, with the first fuel stop at Amelia Earhart field in Atchenson KS - about 175 mile leg. Then to either Kirksville Regional, or Northwest Regional (near Maryville Missouri. On to Centerville Iowa to find out about Antique Field, near Ottumwa Iowa. I hope to pitch the tent at Antique Field, Wednesday night. Probably one fuel stop at Maquoeta Iowa, and on in to Brodhead on Thursday. I'll be using the 'Corky Sponsored Flight Following' again this year !! Thanks Corky !! Mike, Do you get to Brodhead with one fuel stop ? Jack, What is your flight plan ? Anyone else with a flight plan ? Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:12 PM PST US From: Jim Cooper Subject: Pietenpol-List: Eyebrow Patterns Thanks to Corky and Dick Gillespie I now have the eyebrow patterns for the Continental 65 (&85). Appreciate your help. Jim Cooper ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:58 PM PST US d="scan'208,217"; a="1180297748:sNHT23591476" From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ground angle For those that want to know, Greg and Dale's Piet with the wire wheels and the tail skid sits at a 12.5 degree deck angle (smartlevel on rear cockpit top longeron) when fully loaded on three points. Chris