Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - Re: Ford "A" engine (Phillips, Jack)
2. 04:19 AM - Re: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan (Textor, Jack)
3. 04:35 AM - Re: Brodhead FLight Plan (Phillips, Jack)
4. 05:33 AM - flight plans to Brodhead (Michael D Cuy)
5. 07:16 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Brad Smith)
6. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Charles Mullins)
7. 07:41 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Brad Smith)
8. 07:44 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Brad Smith)
9. 07:50 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Brad Smith)
10. 08:01 AM - Broadhead shuttle (Rick Holland)
11. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 (Galen Hutcheson)
12. 07:11 PM - Rudder issue appears solved (Christian Bobka)
13. 07:28 PM - Re: Rudder issue appears solved (Jeff Boatright)
14. 09:29 PM - Re: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan (Rcaprd@aol.com)
15. 09:43 PM - Mixture & Altitude (Rcaprd@aol.com)
16. 09:58 PM - Re: Mixture & Altitude (Dick Navratil)
Message 1
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com>
Yep - for a Pietenpol, the service ceiling should be defined as the
point where Vx, Vy and Vso all intersect - flying right on the verge of
a stall. Just like an A310 at FL 360
Jack Phillips--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "John Dilatush"
<dilatush@amigo.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ford "A" engine
================================
Jack and Oscar,
I estimate that the power to keep a Piet aloft at 10,000 feet should be
about 45 hp. Power required to maintain flight increases somewhat with
altitude, but have no formula for this, if there is one. So I have
guessed
at the 45 hp number. And of course the weight of the plane is a major
factor and I again assumed that Chuck would be at about 900 lbs solo.
The
main point to realize is that you lose about 3% of your SL hp for each
1,000
feet of altitude. So at 10,000 feet Chuck loses almost 20 hp leaving
only
about 45 hp!
In estimating the ceiling for Chuck's 65 hp Piet, I assumed this would
be
the absolute, staggering, button biting, "Oh my God!" max altitude
possible,
not the officially defined service ceiling which is 100 fpm rate of
climb
still available for the plane. I just assumed standard temp and
pressure.
It will be interesting to hear from him when he has tried it, supposedly
this last weekend.
John
Message 2
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Subject: | playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan |
Chuck,
You can check out Antique Airfield and the AAA/APM at http://www.aaa-apm.org/. It's a neat area but can be tricky to land. I can fax you a layout of the field if you would like. The fly-in there is member only, so you might call ahead to see if you can camp for the night (641-938-2773). If you need a "member sponsor" feel free to use me. I hope to depart (via Suburban) Friday. Would like to arrive early afternoon. After OSH I plan to drive through Madison to pick up some wood at McCormick. Have a safe flight!
Jack Textor
Des Moines
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Rcaprd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan
In a message dated 7/18/2005 2:30:26 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov
writes:
Chuck G.....did you get to do any experiments with your mixture control
on
your Stromberg ?
I still haven't got to flight test my mixture control. It usually takes me
at least twice as long as I anticipate it should take. I built a bracket, and
arm...twice. Also, In preparation of my trek to Brodhead, I installed the CHT
/ EGT, painted the exhaust, improved the carb heat muff, re-secured a lot of
cables & wires under the cowl - using the double Adel Clamp method, re-secured
wiring in the instrument panel, installed a few more cockpit amenities, changed
the front windshield, building hard points for the Pig Bombs, plus quite
a bit of routine maintenance. I'm off work tomorrow, so I can finish up the loose
ends, but everything is pretty much buttoned up. Well...I'll just do this,
or do that before I take 'er back up. It just goes on and on !!
I'm going to 'Stretch 'er Legs' at some higher altitudes, on this cross country,
as opposed to how I did a lot of the trip the past two summers...airport
hopping about every hour or two. I'll keep a close eye on fuel burn, if I'm
not shivering too much up there !! I'm planning on Wednesday morning departure,
with the first fuel stop at Amelia Earhart field in Atchenson KS - about 175
mile leg. Then to either Kirksville Regional, or Northwest Regional (near Maryville
Missouri. On to Centerville Iowa to find out about Antique Field, near
Ottumwa Iowa. I hope to pitch the tent at Antique Field, Wednesday night.
Probably one fuel stop at Maquoeta Iowa, and on in to Brodhead on Thursday.
I'll be using the 'Corky Sponsored Flight Following' again this year !! Thanks
Corky !!
Mike,
Do you get to Brodhead with one fuel stop ?
Jack,
What is your flight plan ?
Anyone else with a flight plan ?
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 3
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Subject: | RE: Brodhead FLight Plan |
Hi Chuck,
I'm planning on leaving Thursday morning, heading from Raleigh to
Cleveland, Ohio, to meet up with Mike Cuy. I'm planning on stops at
Blacksburg, VA; Summerwinds, WV; and New Philadelphia, OH on the way to
Mike's home field at Columbia Station. Should be around 7 hours of
flying
Friday morning Mike and I will depart Columbia Station heading to
Brodhead, with stops at Bryan, OH; Valparaiso, IN; and Poplar Grove, IL.
Again, about 7 hours flying time, depending on wind. We should get
there sometime around 4 or 5 Friday afternoon.
I'll head to OSH Sunday morning and stay there until Wednesday, when
I'll depart for Jackson, Tennessee with stops at Poplar Grove, IL;
Pontiac, IL; Shelbyville, IL; and Metropolis, IL (Illinois is an awfully
long state). This will be a long day with 9 or 10 hours of flying.
I'll spend a day or two in Jackson visiting family, then fly another
long day all the way back to Raleigh, with stops in Pulaski, TN; Rome,
GA; Pickens, SC; and Lincolnton, NC. Again 9 or 10 hours, depending on
winds.
Altogether 2,145 miles. Hope the weather will be good.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: playing with the mixture control & Flight
Plan
I'm planning on Wednesday morning departure, with the first fuel stop at
Amelia Earhart field in Atchenson KS - about 175 mile leg. Then to
either Kirksville Regional, or Northwest Regional (near Maryville
Missouri. On to Centerville Iowa to find out about Antique Field, near
Ottumwa Iowa. I hope to pitch the tent at Antique Field, Wednesday
night. Probably one fuel stop at Maquoeta Iowa, and on in to Brodhead
on Thursday. I'll be using the 'Corky Sponsored Flight Following' again
this year !! Thanks Corky !!
Mike,
Do you get to Brodhead with one fuel stop ?
Jack,
What is your flight plan ?
Anyone else with a flight plan ?
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 4
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Subject: | flight plans to Brodhead |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Chuck-- Good to hear you are finishing up the details. I just about ended
up doing a condition inspection on my Air Camper
this past week. Good though--it needed it. I can't make Brodhead in one
fuel stop. Very close though with a range of
450 miles with one stop. Just too long in the saddle for 3+ hour legs.
Jack and I will basically head due west from Cleveland, hang a right around
Joliet, Illinois or thereabouts and hit Poplar
Grove, Illinois as he mentioned before the 30 minute or so flight to
Brodhead over southern Beloit. Pickup State Highway
81 to Brodhead Airport. (actually follow the gps is more like it)
Look forward to seeing you and all the others on the list who are able to
make the fly-in.
MIke C.
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>> Albatros DIII.
>Sounds like a fun plane to build. I have a friend
who
>is building a Nieuport replica.
That is where the inspiration comes from... and I have
a set of Graham Lee Nieuport plans. :) Cool planes!
>It does have the aluminum heads and higher
compression
>pistons. It has a Model B grind on the cam, inserts
>on the bearings and copper babbiting. Ken builds a
>larger water pump I think. It runs a Slick mag too.
>Of course it has the internal pressure oiling and the
>usual mods for flight. The prop flying on Ken's
Piet,
>which has the same engine he's building for me, has a
>Falin 77 1/4 inch by I think 44 or 47 pitch. It
turns
>1800 rpms static and 2250 rpms in climb. These are
>Ken's stats. I'm not sure I can use that prop since I
>have a totally different airplane, but that will be a
>starting point.
It sounds like a mildly modified A has even more
torque than I thought... This engine is sounding
better and better.
>Hope this as been of some help and I will be happy to
>answer any questions you have if I can. Are you
>building from plans or is it your own design? I am
>doing my on engineering so it is taking me a little
>longer.
>Doc H.
Hmmm... there's no straight answer to that question.
It is partly from plans, partly my design, and partly
the design of a "professional." I don't feel
qualified to do everything myself... so I have a
retired aerospace engineer from NASA helping me...
he'll probably sell plans when we're done. I have no
interest in the "airplane business."
Current plans are to use wings done like the Graham
Lee Nieuport (easy and not too expensive, and VERY
light!) but everything else designed from scratch.
Tail surfaces also aluminum tube and fabric, fuselage
is open to a couple of methods, one of which is of
course wood, the other aluminum tube with a foam and
fiberglass shell. (I think the one that Frank Ryder
did was welded steel tube with a foam and 'glass
shell.) I'm leaning toward wood, but that is a LOT of
bending and scarfing plywood!
If everything goes as planned, it will be able to be
changed from a DIII to a DI or DII by changing the
wings and struts- I'm planning to have lower spar
carry throughs for both configurations, so it would be
a "bolt on" change... and of course changing the tip
of the cowl and adding/removing the spinner changes
from the German to Austrian varients. :)
Brad
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Charles Mullins" <cmmullins@bellsouth.net>
Brad,
Sorry to but-in on the discussion but I had a chance to examine Frank's
plane in question. If I remember right (you have to remember that that was
along time ago) it was a plywood covered fuselage. The plane was a little on
the heavy side and underpowered.
I had the privilege to get personal tours of the museum and to talk to Frank
on several occasions. He jumped all over me for smoking since he lost his
parents from smoking related diseases and it was all because he cared.
He is still missed. He was a fantastic guy and engineer.
Moon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Smith" <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>
>
> >> Albatros DIII.
>
> >Sounds like a fun plane to build. I have a friend
> who
> >is building a Nieuport replica.
>
> That is where the inspiration comes from... and I have
> a set of Graham Lee Nieuport plans. :) Cool planes!
>
> >It does have the aluminum heads and higher
> compression
> >pistons. It has a Model B grind on the cam, inserts
> >on the bearings and copper babbiting. Ken builds a
> >larger water pump I think. It runs a Slick mag too.
> >Of course it has the internal pressure oiling and the
> >usual mods for flight. The prop flying on Ken's
> Piet,
> >which has the same engine he's building for me, has a
> >Falin 77 1/4 inch by I think 44 or 47 pitch. It
> turns
> >1800 rpms static and 2250 rpms in climb. These are
> >Ken's stats. I'm not sure I can use that prop since I
> >have a totally different airplane, but that will be a
> >starting point.
>
> It sounds like a mildly modified A has even more
> torque than I thought... This engine is sounding
> better and better.
>
> >Hope this as been of some help and I will be happy to
> >answer any questions you have if I can. Are you
> >building from plans or is it your own design? I am
> >doing my on engineering so it is taking me a little
> >longer.
>
> >Doc H.
>
> Hmmm... there's no straight answer to that question.
> It is partly from plans, partly my design, and partly
> the design of a "professional." I don't feel
> qualified to do everything myself... so I have a
> retired aerospace engineer from NASA helping me...
> he'll probably sell plans when we're done. I have no
> interest in the "airplane business."
>
> Current plans are to use wings done like the Graham
> Lee Nieuport (easy and not too expensive, and VERY
> light!) but everything else designed from scratch.
> Tail surfaces also aluminum tube and fabric, fuselage
> is open to a couple of methods, one of which is of
> course wood, the other aluminum tube with a foam and
> fiberglass shell. (I think the one that Frank Ryder
> did was welded steel tube with a foam and 'glass
> shell.) I'm leaning toward wood, but that is a LOT of
> bending and scarfing plywood!
>
> If everything goes as planned, it will be able to be
> changed from a DIII to a DI or DII by changing the
> wings and struts- I'm planning to have lower spar
> carry throughs for both configurations, so it would be
> a "bolt on" change... and of course changing the tip
> of the cowl and adding/removing the spinner changes
> from the German to Austrian varients. :)
>
> Brad
>
>
> __________________________________
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>>Chuck G.....did you get to do any experiments with
>>your mixture control on your Stromberg ?
>I did ground tests Sunday with full power, full rich,
>then slowly leaned out the mixture and got
>an initial rise from 2150 rpm static but on
>subsequent leanings that didn't occur. I was
>surprised to see how far I had to move the mixture
>arm though to get the rpm's to drop off. Wired it
>back to 'almost full rich'. Only reason I'm
>tinkering is that even after setting the float level
>I'm producing dusty black chalk in the exhaust
>pipes.....and on all 8 plugs.
>Mike C.
Mike,
Is this on an "A" engine with dual plugs??
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>Maybe somebody has already posted this, but in case
>not- there is an
>excellent write-up on testing and modifying the A
>engine, at this link:
>http://users.aol.com/gmaclaren/dyno.html
Oscar,
Thanks for the info. I've seen that one before, and
have it bookmarked, but I bet a lot of other folks
haven't!
Brad
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>I bought one of the dual ignition aluminum heads and
>I'm working on a dual mag installation.
I don't know what mags you are planning to use... but
the ones from the 4A084 military genset engine can be
had for $125 each from Saturn Surplus. They run at
full crank speed.
>The Chevy six sounds interesting. Do you know about a
>man named Ryder (Frank I think). He had a WWI museum
in
>Guntersville, AL about 30 miles away.
>He had a beautiful Albitross in his collection.
>However, it was powered with a Ford Pinto engine
which
>wasn't enough. Ryder and his family were killed in a
>crash near Chicago (icing) several years ago. I don't
>know the disposition of his collection, but if you're
>interested, I could find out. Carl
I think that aircraft was supposed to be kitted, but
his death stopped all of that. The collection was
sold off and is scattered all over the world from what
I understand.
I was looking long and hard at the Pinto engine too...
as well as the new Duratec. The problem is that
neither equals the A in low-rpm torque (because
they're only 2.3 liter engines.) The Duratec would be
really close to the A in weight, the Pinto would be
heavier! Either of those could make a nice conversion
with a reduction drive... but I don't want to deal
with all that.
Brad
Message 10
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Subject: | Broadhead shuttle |
For any of you Broadhead attendees who are flying in and are too wimpy (like
me) to camp out, I am staying at a hotel in Monroe (15 miles) and will have
a rental car. Can drive anyone that wants a ride Friday evening, back
Saturday morning, Saturday evening then back Sunday morning. Just look for
the guy measuring everyone's landing gear and asking dumb landing gear build
questions. (By the way, I have never had a ride in a Piet, sure would be
fun).
--
Rick Holland
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 07/18/05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Brad, it sounds like a nice project. I pefer wood
construction myself as all the earliest airplanes were
constructed from wood. Wood is pretty easy to work
with and very durable and light.
I am engineering my plane almost all myself. I did
use the Piet fuselage schematic, but made several
changes to accomodate my needs. I am using the
Pietenpol ribs, again modified to what I need. The
Ford A engine gives me around 80% of the horsepower of
an OX-5 and my plane should weigh about 60-70% of a
full sized Jenny. As I recall, my wing loading was
somewhere around 4-5 lbs/sq ft of wing, which is very
light. So if I can keep the weight down, I should
have better preformance than the origional Jenny. Good
luck on your project.
Doc
Do Not Archive
--- Brad Smith <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Brad Smith
> <rx7_ragtop@yahoo.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> tour:
> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Message 12
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d="scan'208,217"; a="1142888740:sNHT31223108"
Subject: | Rudder issue appears solved |
We have only a few more hours to fly off on the Pietenpol. Then off to Brodhead
on Thursday. I have been wrestling with the right-rudder-needing- to-be-held
problem now for 36 or so flight hours. The answer was still elusive until today.
My leg was cramping from always having to hold right rudder. Anyway, I
fly today from Stanton down to Faribault and notice that Cliff Hatz was down
below so now knowing I could get a start when it was time to leave, I elected
to land and chat with him. While there, I decided I would grab the tiedown kit,
folding chair, and pillow from the Cessna 140 as I would need the stuff at
Brodhead. I wedged the pillow down to the left of the stick assembly in the front
cockpit and then folded the left rudder pedal aft and put the chair down
on the pillow fore and aft with one end at the firewall and the other end just
forward of full extension on the left rudder input for the aft cockpit's rudder
bar. I took off and there was no need to hold right rudder. Like magic, the
need to hold it disappeared.
I then flew over to Stanton and started to unload. And then I found them. Dale
had put springs between the front cockpit's rudder pedals and the firewall.
They were incredibly big too. No wonder! As it turns out, he sized them to
match the size of spring normally found between the rudder and the tailwheel arms!
Yikes!
We disconnected the cables between the rudder bar and the front rudder pedals and
there must have been a 5 pound pull on the cable due to the spring.
Could you imagine if one rudder cable broke or otherwise became disconnected?
You would have had a hard over rudder with no way for it to aerodynamically streamline
itself. Yikes! I told him "no springs at all". I should have looked
sooner. I am embarrassed!
Chris
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Rudder issue appears solved |
Excellent, timely find. Congrats, good luck, and have fun at B'head.
>We have only a few more hours to fly off on the Pietenpol. Then off
>to Brodhead on Thursday. ... I told him "no springs at all". ...
>
>Chris
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: playing with the mixture control & Flight Plan |
In a message dated 7/19/2005 12:40:33 PM Central Standard Time,
jtextor@thepalmergroup.com writes:
Chuck,
You can check out Antique Airfield and the AAA/APM at
http://www.aaa-apm.org/. It's a neat area but can be tricky to land. I can fax you a layout of the
field if you would like. The fly-in there is member only, so you might call
ahead to see if you can camp for the night (641-938-2773). If you need a
"member sponsor" feel free to use me. I hope to depart (via Suburban) Friday.
Would like to arrive early afternoon. After OSH I plan to drive through Madison
to pick up some wood at McCormick. Have a safe flight!
Jack Textor
Des Moines
Thanks, Jack !!
I'll give them a call tomorrow. I am very interested in the museum there,
too, so that would be a really great stop. See ya at Brodhead !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 15
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Subject: | Mixture & Altitude |
I did my first flight with the new mixture control, and CHT & EGT, this
evening. I kept track of all the paramaters, but I don't have it with me now.
I
climbed full power to 5000 feet, the pulled power back to 1900 rpm, and climbed
on up to 6400 feet, and tried the mixture control at each 1000 foot
incriment, and it didn't give any increase in rpm. Kind of disapointing for the
first
flight test. This was just the first flight test, with many more to come.
The sun wouldn't wait for me, so I had to return to earth...
I've never had my ol' Pietenpol up any higher than 3500 - 4000. The earth
sure looks different up there, and it wasn't too cold, about 95=BA on the ground,
and about 70=BA.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Mixture & Altitude |
Hey Chuck
I am just curious about your performance at 95 degrees on climb. It has been quite
hot here also and I've not wanted to go out in it. I tried it at about 89
last year with full fuel and 80 lb in the front seat and I didn't climb all
that well. I was also a bit concerned about the heat bubble on our paved runway.
I'll be leaving Fri am. See ya'll mid aft.
Dick N.
NX2RN
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 11:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Mixture & Altitude
I did my first flight with the new mixture control, and CHT & EGT, this evening.
I kept track of all the paramaters, but I don't have it with me now. I climbed
full power to 5000 feet, the pulled power back to 1900 rpm, and climbed
on up to 6400 feet, and tried the mixture control at each 1000 foot incriment,
and it didn't give any increase in rpm. Kind of disapointing for the first
flight test. This was just the first flight test, with many more to come. The
sun wouldn't wait for me, so I had to return to earth...
I've never had my ol' Pietenpol up any higher than 3500 - 4000. The earth sure
looks different up there, and it wasn't too cold, about 95=BA on the ground,
and about 70=BA.
Chuck G.
NX770CG
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