Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:22 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (Phillips, Jack)
2. 05:11 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (Michael D Cuy)
3. 05:23 AM - Re: Leading edge strip material? (Egan, John)
4. 05:34 AM - Re: A/N Hardware ()
5. 05:50 AM - Step (Phillips, Jack)
6. 06:19 AM - Re: Step (Egan, John)
7. 06:38 AM - Re: Step (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com)
8. 07:30 AM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca)
9. 07:45 AM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Step (chris cummins)
11. 12:20 PM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca)
12. 12:25 PM - datum point (Michael D Cuy)
13. 12:42 PM - Re: Step (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com)
14. 02:24 PM - Pouchel plans needed.Please help (Benny Bee)
15. 02:47 PM - Re : pouchel plans (Michael Turrell)
16. 02:59 PM - Re: Pouchel plans needed.Please help (Gary Gower)
17. 04:56 PM - Re: Leading edge strip material? (Dale Johnson)
18. 04:59 PM - A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in (TBYH@aol.com)
19. 05:35 PM - Re: A/N Hardware (Rcaprd@aol.com)
20. 05:35 PM - Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Rcaprd@aol.com)
21. 06:36 PM - Re: antique airplane assn (Darrel Jones)
Message 1
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Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the
bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or
two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head
thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering
scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy to figure
without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32",
but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a grip
length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent between
different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength bolts
have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts (e.g.,
an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375").
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It
gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware,
along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they
generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except,
oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from them than
from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and
is often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the
F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard
to believe that one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a
third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I
worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is
now called the F-22), one of the first things I was taught was the
proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint relies on friction
to hold the parts together - friction caused by the clamping force the
bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in carrying
shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load in
tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by
tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the
hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but
inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to
bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose
your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and then add
one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread unengaged. Also
be sure there is at least one full thread extending beyond the nut. The
hole in the material should be chamfered or counterbored slightly under
the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius in the transition
area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this chamfer is
missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge of
the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that
can cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on
an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored
surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating
provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum from
corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic
cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the aluminum
part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in a wet
epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on the
F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch with a
-1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no such
thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes a 1
incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7 is
7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8"
The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer <mailto:jpsmoyer@verizon.net>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN
nomenclature to some degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of
the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut
is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the
numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt
is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10.
Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so you can run
into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you
all you need to know.
http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm
<http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm> . It even includes a
down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
Message 2
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m>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Jack---exactly right. That's what Tony Bingelis has to say as well......
Mike C.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Leading edge strip material? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
My piece of fir for the leading edge came from my local lumber yard
(Wisconsin), I also visited a local Milling and Planning business who
had 5/4" clear pine for about the same price I can buy Sitka at
McCormick lumber in Madison, Wisconsin. The fir has a hand full of
birds eye size knots in it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Christian Bobka
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka"
<sbobka@charter.net>
where did you get the wood?
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
>
> Thanks to all who helped me, this time on the leading edge. Over the
> weekend, I picked up a long length of 2x6 fir. It comes almost clear
in
> 14' lengths. I priced out 5/4" clear pine, sitka, hand railing, and
> 3/4" clear pine to laminate. I ended up ripping the 2x6 about four
> times to rough it out, clamped it to the wing assembly, and used a
block
> plane. Eight dollars for the lumber, and a little labor and fun.
Thank
> you all for your good advice. By mixing and matching all advice to my
> style and capability, I have found good solutions to help me advance
my
> project quickly. After the outboard wings are glue up, I'll work on
the
> (36") center section, and will need to think about fabricating a gas
> tank at some point. Thank you all again.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt
> evans
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 5:41 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans"
> <wbeevans@verizon.net>
>
> I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine
> bin
> and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide
the
> piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading
edges.
> After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape
the
> both leading edges.
> There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a
piece
> down to a perfect, uniform size.
> walt evans
> NX140DL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:57 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
> >
> > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip
> material?
> > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on
the
> > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively
close.
> > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3"
> at
> > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
> >
> >
>
> --
> ----
> > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
> contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
> exempt
> from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error,
> please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> >
>
========================================================================
> ====
> ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
----
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt
from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
>
========================================================================
====
==
>
>
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
Message 4
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Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe
the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:20 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
=09
=09
Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of
the bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer
or two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the
head thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash
numbering scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy
to figure without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of
1-1/32", but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a
grip length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent
between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength
bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts
(e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375").
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company.
It gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS
hardware, along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive,
but they generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly
(except, oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from
them than from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly
critical, and is often overlooked. When I started working at General
Dynamics on the F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30
years ago (hard to believe that one of our front line fighters was
designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that
even back then I worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical
=46ighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the first things I was
taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint
relies on friction to hold the parts together - friction caused by the
clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are
excellent in carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is
carrying all the load in tension in addition to the tensile loads
imposed on the bolt by tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt
within the hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the
hole, but inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the
bolt to bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads.
Choose your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and
then add one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread
unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread extending
beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or
counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small
radius in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the
shank. If this chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the
bolt diameter, the edge of the hole will tend to cut into this radius,
making a stress riser that can cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel
bolt on an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold
colored surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad
plating provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum
=66rom corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a
galvanic cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the
aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in
a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on
the F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch
with a -1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no
such thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes
a 1 incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7
is 7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8"
The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Phyllis Smoyer
<mailto:jpsmoyer@verizon.net>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode
the AN nomenclature to some degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the
diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3
bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but
the numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10
bolt is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an
AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so
you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can
tell you all you need to know.
http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm
<http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm> . It even includes a
down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
Message 5
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Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of
the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step
design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined
tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint
appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat? If so, would you describe
the design and mounting? Some people have 30" in seams....
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
Message 6
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Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
=09
=09
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
=66ront step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:34 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware
Jack,
Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a
person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe
the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams....
=09
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and
may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
=09
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
Message 7
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My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
=09
=09
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
Message 8
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Heres another method I found on the web.See attachments.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
Message 9
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The other two pictures I wanted to send didn't get through due to
network problems,maybe this time.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of
pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with
the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs
along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to
attach to.
Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not
want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in
the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front
seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of
having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've
not seen them.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be
appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step
Hi John,
I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of
pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the
front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of
streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had
wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface.
Jack Phillips
"Icarus Plummet"
-----Original Message-----
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
Message 10
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I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and balance. What
are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
---------------------------------
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I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and
balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
________________________________
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt34442/*http:/www.yahoo.com/r/hs>
Message 12
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m>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Chris-- I used the front of my propeller hub for the datum---this way ALL
of your math is with positive numbers. Tony
Bingelis shows simple ways of doing weight and balance. It really is
much easier to work with all positive numbers.
Try to find accurate scales---bathroom scales can be really out of
calibration. Watch your tail when you are weighing
in the 'level-flight' attitude. It is very light on the tailwheel and the
plane can easily nose over. I think my tail only had
7 to 9 pound of force on the tail scale so one of the ladies watching the
procedure manned the tail in case it started to come up.
Congratulations on being so close !
Mike C. in Ohio
Message 13
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You can use anything you like for the datum - just document it so you
can remember what you used. For aerodynamic purposes, the leading edge
of the wing works best, but that means anything ahead of the LE has a
negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing the math. I used
the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape measure to it. Again,
everything ahead of the firewall then must have a negative arm, but if
you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added in the distance from
the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and calculated my CG as a
percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG envelope.
Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight position, preferably
either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a perfectly windless
day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will change the reading
on your scales). If at all possible, use certified aircraft scales
(your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he would loan you). I
first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found that my initial
weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used certified scales. Put
each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale - if the wheel is off
to one side it won't read accurately. Remember empty weight includes
unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
harvey.rule@bell.ca
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris
cummins
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and
balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
Chris Cummins
Message 14
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| Subject: | Pouchel plans needed.Please help |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Benny Bee <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
Guys howdy!.
A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so
impressed that now i am thinking about building me
one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and
construction.Whats involved,engine,total
weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but
there is many more questions i have regarding the
plane.
I saw a french site where plans were sold for
e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in
bag.
Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows
who built it.
Thanks in advance! have a great flying!
Mitty
--- "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com> wrote:
> You can use anything you like for the datum - just
> document it so you
> can remember what you used. For aerodynamic
> purposes, the leading edge
> of the wing works best, but that means anything
> ahead of the LE has a
> negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing
> the math. I used
> the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape
> measure to it. Again,
> everything ahead of the firewall then must have a
> negative arm, but if
> you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added
> in the distance from
> the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and
> calculated my CG as a
> percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG
> envelope.
>
>
>
> Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight
> position, preferably
> either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a
> perfectly windless
> day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will
> change the reading
> on your scales). If at all possible, use certified
> aircraft scales
> (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he
> would loan you). I
> first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found
> that my initial
> weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used
> certified scales. Put
> each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale -
> if the wheel is off
> to one side it won't read accurately. Remember
> empty weight includes
> unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
>
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> harvey.rule@bell.ca
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front
> of the prop hub.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of chris
> cummins
> Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I have just finished building my Peit and need to do
> the weight and
> balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
>
>
>
> Chris Cummins
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re : pouchel plans |
Interesting design! Find more info at www.pouduciel.com Do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Pouchel plans needed.Please help |
Hello Benny,
Following is my answer to your mail yesterday, there I explain the best I could.
The price of the plans is correct. There are great but simple drawings, in metric
of course, but easy to follow using a metric tape. As I offrered, I will
help you as much as possible with advise during your construction. I am sure
you will need very little help.
Please dont buy "pirate" plans. support the designers and the homebuilt movement.
Saludos
Gary Gower
Date:Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:58:28 -0700 (PDT)From:"Gary Gower" <ggower_99@yahoo.com>
View Contact Details
Yes I build my Pouchel "La Bamba", is a great project, very easy and fast to build,
yet VERY well built. In fact the ladders (one of mine's) was tested up to
10 g's without getting to the break point even was able to return to the original
position once the weight was off!!!
Flys better than any ultralight, 3 axis ultralight will be very usefull. You will
love it, Now I am continue building the 2 seater HM 380 Flying Flea...
There are two important things to know: one is going to be dificult to make it
fit in the legal (USA) ultralight weight, but who will care and weight it?
Never heard from first hand pilots that have seen an FAA Oficcer ramp weighting
ultralights... Looks like and UL, fly like an UL, and the engine sound like
an UL... so is an UL.
I was not very carefull with the weightwhile building, here we have a gross limit
weight for ul's so it fitted very easy... But was not that easy myself (see
next)...
Another important point is pilot weight (and size of his rear end) to fit inside
the two spars of the ladder fuselage. I had to go in a diet and I am still
in this weight to fit: 65 Kgs (143 lbs).
I had to loose 18 lbs in the 8 months I built it. Carlos my partner loosed 25
lbs.
The plans are so graphic and good that the few words in French are easy to translate
with the use of a dictionary.
My Pouchel was the 3rd built (serial # 003) so I got a special Diploma from the
French FAA and Dalby's assn.
The price of the plans is not high... If you pay Dalby the amount of them I will
gladly help you by internet any time (for free). I like to support homebult
designers work... Is the base of world wide fredome of flight. Dont buy
pirate music, sofware or airplanes plans, from E-bay. Please support creative
people.
Hope to hear from you soon...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Benny Bee <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello Gary!
Accidently i came across pouchel design and fell in
love with idea of using a ladders to build an
ultralight.How simple and rigid!.
The only reference i found regardless the plans was
one french site where they were sold as i understood
for 100 euro.
I made a search and found your site with pictures.Also
i found a word document-flight report.Please tell me
where can i find plans other then on a french site for
E100? Are those cd's that sold on ebay have it?
How many hours did you spend on building puchel? How
different it flies compared to 3 axis ultralight?
Please,whenever you get a chance let me know because i
am anxiouse :))
Thanks !
BB
Benny Bee <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Benny Bee
Guys howdy!.
A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so
impressed that now i am thinking about building me
one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and
construction.Whats involved,engine,total
weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but
there is many more questions i have regarding the
plane.
I saw a french site where plans were sold for
e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in
bag.
Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows
who built it.
Thanks in advance! have a great flying!
Mitty
--- "Phillips, Jack" wrote:
> You can use anything you like for the datum - just
> document it so you
> can remember what you used. For aerodynamic
> purposes, the leading edge
> of the wing works best, but that means anything
> ahead of the LE has a
> negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing
> the math. I used
> the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape
> measure to it. Again,
> everything ahead of the firewall then must have a
> negative arm, but if
> you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added
> in the distance from
> the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and
> calculated my CG as a
> percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG
> envelope.
>
>
>
> Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight
> position, preferably
> either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a
> perfectly windless
> day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will
> change the reading
> on your scales). If at all possible, use certified
> aircraft scales
> (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he
> would loan you). I
> first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found
> that my initial
> weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used
> certified scales. Put
> each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale -
> if the wheel is off
> to one side it won't read accurately. Remember
> empty weight includes
> unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine.
>
>
>
> Jack Phillips
>
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of
> harvey.rule@bell.ca
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front
> of the prop hub.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of chris
> cummins
> Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step
>
>
>
> I have just finished building my Peit and need to do
> the weight and
> balance. What are you using as the Datum point ?
>
>
>
> Chris Cummins
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Leading edge strip material? |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn@earthlink.net>
Chris
We used redwood for the leading edge and the trailing edge.
Dale
> [Original Message]
> From: Christian Bobka <sbobka@charter.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/9/2005 7:48:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka"
<sbobka@charter.net>
>
> I think dale and greg used a lot of cedar from the lumber yard.
>
> chris
>
> Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:57 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material?
>
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
> >
> > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material?
> > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the
> > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the
> > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close.
> > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at
> > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then
> > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy.
> >
> >
> ----
> > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
> contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt
> from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error,
> please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and
> destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
> >
>
============================================================================
> ==
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in |
I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in each specific
area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you
use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you
use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self
locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the
plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one
cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I attend
the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few weeks? Seems I
read that this is the case, but would like to make sure. Also, I can't find
any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info?
Best regards,
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:27:10 AM Central Standard Time,
jphillip@alarismed.com writes:
Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, or
the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The grip
length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus the
length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the bolt
diameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, an
AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32=E2=80=9D, but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32=E2=80=9D,
and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16=E2=80=9D. The dash numbering scheme
is
also inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high
strength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16=E2=80=9D
incrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375=E2=80=9D).
Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It gives
the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with a
wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have what
you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. That
always seems to take longer from them than from Wicks).
The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and is
often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16
program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believe
that
one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago.
Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF
=E2=80=93 Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the
first
things I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted
joint relies on friction to hold the parts together =E2=80=93 friction caused by
the
clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in
carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load
in
tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening.
A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole in
the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the hole
in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides=20of
the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear the
thickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure there
will be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread
extending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or
counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius
in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this
chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge
of the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that can
cause failure of the bolt.
When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on an
aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of=20AN
hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificial
anodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating is
removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which will
cause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping
the hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard
practice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn=E2=80=99t go to that extreme on my
Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Jack,
That description, and Subject Line, of how to use hardware was a very good
addition to the archives.
Chuck G.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Jack Phillips,
I would like to hear about your flight from Brodhead to Oshkosh. How about
those headwinds ???
Chuck G.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: antique airplane assn |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Darrel Jones <wd6bor@vom.com>
Dick Navratil wrote:
> After past discussion of AAA, I looked them up today. Looks
> interesting for fly ins and such. I also noticed they have a sub
> listing for the International Pietenpol Assn. Does anyone belong to
> this? Is it worthwhile? I may just try it out.
> Dick N.
I belonged to the International Pietenpol Association when it was taken
over by the AAA. They collected my dues and regularly failed to deliver
the publication. You would be better off to join the Vintage Airplane
Association of the EAA. Lots of resources and great publications.
Darrel Jones
N154JP
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