---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/10/05: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:22 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (Phillips, Jack) 2. 05:11 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (Michael D Cuy) 3. 05:23 AM - Re: Leading edge strip material? (Egan, John) 4. 05:34 AM - Re: A/N Hardware () 5. 05:50 AM - Step (Phillips, Jack) 6. 06:19 AM - Re: Step (Egan, John) 7. 06:38 AM - Re: Step (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) 8. 07:30 AM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca) 9. 07:45 AM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca) 10. 11:59 AM - Re: Step (chris cummins) 11. 12:20 PM - Re: Step (harvey.rule@bell.ca) 12. 12:25 PM - datum point (Michael D Cuy) 13. 12:42 PM - Re: Step (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com) 14. 02:24 PM - Pouchel plans needed.Please help (Benny Bee) 15. 02:47 PM - Re : pouchel plans (Michael Turrell) 16. 02:59 PM - Re: Pouchel plans needed.Please help (Gary Gower) 17. 04:56 PM - Re: Leading edge strip material? (Dale Johnson) 18. 04:59 PM - A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in (TBYH@aol.com) 19. 05:35 PM - Re: A/N Hardware (Rcaprd@aol.com) 20. 05:35 PM - Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Rcaprd@aol.com) 21. 06:36 PM - Re: antique airplane assn (Darrel Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware From: "Phillips, Jack" Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32", but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375"). Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from them than from Wicks). The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and is often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believe that one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the first things I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint relies on friction to hold the parts together - friction caused by the clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load in tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening. A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread extending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge of the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that can cause failure of the bolt. When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch with a -1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no such thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes a 1 incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7 is 7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8" The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness. Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to some degree: The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on. The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also. I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to know. http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm . It even includes a down-loadable program. HOpe this helps. Best Regards, John Smoyer ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:17 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware m> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Jack---exactly right. That's what Tony Bingelis has to say as well...... Mike C. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? From: "Egan, John" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" My piece of fir for the leading edge came from my local lumber yard (Wisconsin), I also visited a local Milling and Planning business who had 5/4" clear pine for about the same price I can buy Sitka at McCormick lumber in Madison, Wisconsin. The fir has a hand full of birds eye size knots in it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Christian Bobka Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" where did you get the wood? Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Egan, John" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" > > Thanks to all who helped me, this time on the leading edge. Over the > weekend, I picked up a long length of 2x6 fir. It comes almost clear in > 14' lengths. I priced out 5/4" clear pine, sitka, hand railing, and > 3/4" clear pine to laminate. I ended up ripping the 2x6 about four > times to rough it out, clamped it to the wing assembly, and used a block > plane. Eight dollars for the lumber, and a little labor and fun. Thank > you all for your good advice. By mixing and matching all advice to my > style and capability, I have found good solutions to help me advance my > project quickly. After the outboard wings are glue up, I'll work on the > (36") center section, and will need to think about fabricating a gas > tank at some point. Thank you all again. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt > evans > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 5:41 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" > > > I used a piece of 5/4 clear pine. Or you can look in the regular pine > bin > and pay less for a good hand picked clear piece. I forget how wide the > piece was , but when cut on a bevel it took care of both leading edges. > After bolting in place I used my little hand plane (no pun) to shape the > both leading edges. > There is nothing so satisfying as using a sharp plane to bring a piece > down to a perfect, uniform size. > walt evans > NX140DL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Egan, John" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 9:57 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" > > > > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip > material? > > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the > > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the > > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close. > > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" > at > > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then > > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy. > > > > > > -- > ---- > > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may > contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is > exempt > from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, > please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and > destroy any printed copy. Thank you. > > > ======================================================================== > ==== > == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ---- > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. > ======================================================================== ==== == > > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ============================================================================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware Jack, Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams.... -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:20 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware =09 =09 Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32", but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32", and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16". The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16" incrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375"). Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from them than from Wicks). The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and is often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believe that one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF - Advanced Tactical =46ighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the first things I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint relies on friction to hold the parts together - friction caused by the clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load in tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening. A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides of the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread extending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge of the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that can cause failure of the bolt. When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum =66rom corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn't go to that extreme on my Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware the dash number is the length of the grip in eighths of an inch with a -1 at 1/8" grip length and a -7 at 7/8" grip length. There is no such thing as a -8 or a -18 or a -28 etc as a -8, at 8 eighths, becomes a 1 incher or, better yet a 1 incher and no eighths or a -10. So a -7 is 7/8" and a -10 is a 1" and a -11 is 1-1/8" The grip is the length of the bolt excluding the head thickness. Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: John and Phyllis Smoyer To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to some degree: The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on. The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also. I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to know. http://taggart.glg.msu..edu/gyro/bolts.htm . It even includes a down-loadable program. HOpe this helps. Best Regards, John Smoyer This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step From: "Phillips, Jack" Hi John, I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface. Jack Phillips "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware Jack, Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a person(you) when climbing into the back seat? If so, would you describe the design and mounting? Some people have 30" in seams.... ------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step From: "Egan, John" Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step =09 =09 Hi John, I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the =66ront step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface. Jack Phillips "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:34 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware Jack, Did I see a nice peg on the side of your fuselage to assist a person(you) when climbing into the back seat=3F If so, would you describe the design and mounting=3F Some people have 30" in seams.... =09 ------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. =09 This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to attach to. Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've not seen them. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step Hi John, I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface. Jack Phillips "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- =09 =09 ------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:04 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step From: harvey.rule@bell.ca Heres another method I found on the web.See attachments. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to attach to. Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've not seen them. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step Hi John, I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface. Jack Phillips "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- ------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step From: harvey.rule@bell.ca The other two pictures I wanted to send didn't get through due to network problems,maybe this time. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step My apologies to the fellows with dial-up modems. Here are a couple of pictures of the front step setup. This step is installed in line with the front of the front seat and ties in to the spruce brace that runs along the top of the floorboard for the front of the front seat to attach to. Even with the step the front seat is not easy to get into, but I did not want to cut a door in the side of the fuselage. Most of the loads in the fuselage are going through the longerons in the area of the front seat and I just did not want to cut them there for the convenience of having a door. Gary Price has a set of plans for such a door but I've not seen them. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan, John Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step Very nice. if you have a photo handy of the front step, It will also be appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:43 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Step Hi John, I installed steps for both cockpits. Here are a couple of pictures of the rear step. If interested I can send pictures of the front step design as well. The steps were made from scrap pieces of streamlined tubing left over from the cabane struts, and then had wingwalk paint appiled to give them a nonskid surface. Jack Phillips "Icarus Plummet" -----Original Message----- ------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:20 AM PST US From: chris cummins Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and balance. What are you using as the Datum point ? Chris Cummins --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step From: harvey.rule@bell.ca I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris cummins Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and balance. What are you using as the Datum point ? Chris Cummins ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:53 PM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: datum point m> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Chris-- I used the front of my propeller hub for the datum---this way ALL of your math is with positive numbers. Tony Bingelis shows simple ways of doing weight and balance. It really is much easier to work with all positive numbers. Try to find accurate scales---bathroom scales can be really out of calibration. Watch your tail when you are weighing in the 'level-flight' attitude. It is very light on the tailwheel and the plane can easily nose over. I think my tail only had 7 to 9 pound of force on the tail scale so one of the ladies watching the procedure manned the tail in case it started to come up. Congratulations on being so close ! Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step You can use anything you like for the datum - just document it so you can remember what you used. For aerodynamic purposes, the leading edge of the wing works best, but that means anything ahead of the LE has a negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing the math. I used the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape measure to it. Again, everything ahead of the firewall then must have a negative arm, but if you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added in the distance from the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and calculated my CG as a percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG envelope. Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight position, preferably either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a perfectly windless day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will change the reading on your scales). If at all possible, use certified aircraft scales (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he would loan you). I first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found that my initial weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used certified scales. Put each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale - if the wheel is off to one side it won't read accurately. Remember empty weight includes unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine. Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front of the prop hub. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris cummins Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step I have just finished building my Peit and need to do the weight and balance. What are you using as the Datum point ? Chris Cummins ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:11 PM PST US From: Benny Bee Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pouchel plans needed.Please help --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Benny Bee Guys howdy!. A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so impressed that now i am thinking about building me one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and construction.Whats involved,engine,total weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but there is many more questions i have regarding the plane. I saw a french site where plans were sold for e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in bag. Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows who built it. Thanks in advance! have a great flying! Mitty --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > You can use anything you like for the datum - just > document it so you > can remember what you used. For aerodynamic > purposes, the leading edge > of the wing works best, but that means anything > ahead of the LE has a > negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing > the math. I used > the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape > measure to it. Again, > everything ahead of the firewall then must have a > negative arm, but if > you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added > in the distance from > the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and > calculated my CG as a > percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG > envelope. > > > > Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight > position, preferably > either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a > perfectly windless > day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will > change the reading > on your scales). If at all possible, use certified > aircraft scales > (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he > would loan you). I > first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found > that my initial > weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used > certified scales. Put > each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale - > if the wheel is off > to one side it won't read accurately. Remember > empty weight includes > unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine. > > > > Jack Phillips > > Raleigh, NC > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of > harvey.rule@bell.ca > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step > > > > I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front > of the prop hub. > > > > _____ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of chris > cummins > Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step > > > > I have just finished building my Peit and need to do > the weight and > balance. What are you using as the Datum point ? > > > > Chris Cummins > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:38 PM PST US From: "Michael Turrell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re : pouchel plans Interesting design! Find more info at www.pouduciel.com Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:36 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pouchel plans needed.Please help Hello Benny, Following is my answer to your mail yesterday, there I explain the best I could. The price of the plans is correct. There are great but simple drawings, in metric of course, but easy to follow using a metric tape. As I offrered, I will help you as much as possible with advise during your construction. I am sure you will need very little help. Please dont buy "pirate" plans. support the designers and the homebuilt movement. Saludos Gary Gower Date:Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:58:28 -0700 (PDT)From:"Gary Gower" View Contact Details Yes I build my Pouchel "La Bamba", is a great project, very easy and fast to build, yet VERY well built. In fact the ladders (one of mine's) was tested up to 10 g's without getting to the break point even was able to return to the original position once the weight was off!!! Flys better than any ultralight, 3 axis ultralight will be very usefull. You will love it, Now I am continue building the 2 seater HM 380 Flying Flea... There are two important things to know: one is going to be dificult to make it fit in the legal (USA) ultralight weight, but who will care and weight it? Never heard from first hand pilots that have seen an FAA Oficcer ramp weighting ultralights... Looks like and UL, fly like an UL, and the engine sound like an UL... so is an UL. I was not very carefull with the weightwhile building, here we have a gross limit weight for ul's so it fitted very easy... But was not that easy myself (see next)... Another important point is pilot weight (and size of his rear end) to fit inside the two spars of the ladder fuselage. I had to go in a diet and I am still in this weight to fit: 65 Kgs (143 lbs). I had to loose 18 lbs in the 8 months I built it. Carlos my partner loosed 25 lbs. The plans are so graphic and good that the few words in French are easy to translate with the use of a dictionary. My Pouchel was the 3rd built (serial # 003) so I got a special Diploma from the French FAA and Dalby's assn. The price of the plans is not high... If you pay Dalby the amount of them I will gladly help you by internet any time (for free). I like to support homebult designers work... Is the base of world wide fredome of flight. Dont buy pirate music, sofware or airplanes plans, from E-bay. Please support creative people. Hope to hear from you soon... Saludos Gary Gower. Benny Bee wrote: Hello Gary! Accidently i came across pouchel design and fell in love with idea of using a ladders to build an ultralight.How simple and rigid!. The only reference i found regardless the plans was one french site where they were sold as i understood for 100 euro. I made a search and found your site with pictures.Also i found a word document-flight report.Please tell me where can i find plans other then on a french site for E100? Are those cd's that sold on ebay have it? How many hours did you spend on building puchel? How different it flies compared to 3 axis ultralight? Please,whenever you get a chance let me know because i am anxiouse :)) Thanks ! BB Benny Bee wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Benny Bee Guys howdy!. A few days ag i came across pouchel design and got so impressed that now i am thinking about building me one.Too bad i can't find any info on plans and construction.Whats involved,engine,total weight,man/hours etc. I saw a site of Gary Gower but there is many more questions i have regarding the plane. I saw a french site where plans were sold for e100.Thats a good price ut i dont wanna buy cat in bag. Would love to hear here or offline from you fellows who built it. Thanks in advance! have a great flying! Mitty --- "Phillips, Jack" wrote: > You can use anything you like for the datum - just > document it so you > can remember what you used. For aerodynamic > purposes, the leading edge > of the wing works best, but that means anything > ahead of the LE has a > negative arm, so you've got to be careful when doing > the math. I used > the firewall, because it is easy to hook a tape > measure to it. Again, > everything ahead of the firewall then must have a > negative arm, but if > you're careful, that's not a problem. I then added > in the distance from > the firewall to the leading edge of the wing and > calculated my CG as a > percentage of the wing cord to establish the CG > envelope. > > > > Be sure you weigh the airplane in level flight > position, preferably > either inside a hangar with the doors closed or on a > perfectly windless > day (you'd be surprised how much a 10 mph wind will > change the reading > on your scales). If at all possible, use certified > aircraft scales > (your local FBO almost certainly has a set that he > would loan you). I > first weighed mine with bathroom scales, then found > that my initial > weight was off by over 75 lbs when I finally used > certified scales. Put > each wheel in the cetner of the pad on the scale - > if the wheel is off > to one side it won't read accurately. Remember > empty weight includes > unusable fuel, but no oil in the engine. > > > > Jack Phillips > > Raleigh, NC > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of > harvey.rule@bell.ca > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:21 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step > > > > I may be wrong but usually it's right at the front > of the prop hub. > > > > _____ > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of chris > cummins > Sent: August 10, 2005 2:58 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Step > > > > I have just finished building my Peit and need to do > the weight and > balance. What are you using as the Datum point ? > > > > Chris Cummins > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:06 PM PST US From: "Dale Johnson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dale Johnson" Chris We used redwood for the leading edge and the trailing edge. Dale > [Original Message] > From: Christian Bobka > To: > Date: 8/9/2005 7:48:12 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" > > I think dale and greg used a lot of cedar from the lumber yard. > > chris > > Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Egan, John" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge strip material? > > > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" > > > > May I ask what builders are using for leading edge wing strip material? > > I need to purchase, fabricate and install a leading edge strip on the > > wings. Maybe use Sitka, clear pine, a milled 2x4? It seems the > > densities of Sitka, Pine, Douglas Fir and Cedar seem relatively close. > > I priced a 14' length of clear pine at a finish dimension of 1" x 3" at > > about $40 each. The price may come down using shorter pieces, then > > scarfing the joints? Everything I pick up seems so heavy. > > > > > ---- > > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may > contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt > from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, > please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and > destroy any printed copy. Thank you. > > > ============================================================================ > == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:29 PM PST US From: TBYH@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in each specific area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance. Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I attend the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few weeks? Seems I read that this is the case, but would like to make sure. Also, I can't find any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info? Best regards, Fred B. La Crosse, WI ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:48 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware In a message dated 8/10/2005 6:27:10 AM Central Standard Time, jphillip@alarismed.com writes: Actually, the grip is the length of the non-threaded portion of the bolt, or the thickness of the material to be bolted (plus a washer or two). The grip length is the overall length of the bolt minus the head thickness, minus the length of the threaded portion. The dash numbering scheme changes as the bolt diameters change, so it is not easy to figure without a table. For example, an AN3-10 has a grip length of 1-1/32=E2=80=9D, but an AN&-10 has a grip of 1-3/32=E2=80=9D, and an AN8-10 only has a grip length of 5/16=E2=80=9D. The dash numbering scheme is also inconsistent between different types of hardware. For example, NAS1103 high strength bolts have a dash number that is the grip length in 1/16=E2=80=9D incrememnts (e.g., an NAS1103-6 has a grip of .375=E2=80=9D). Order a free catalog from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty company. It gives the grip lengths and dash numbers of most AN, MS and NAS hardware, along with a wealth of other information. ASS is expensive, but they generally have what you need in stock and can ship it quickly (except, oddly enough, spruce. That always seems to take longer from them than from Wicks). The construction of a good bolted joint is actually fairly critical, and is often overlooked. When I started working at General Dynamics on the F-16 program as a young engineer fresh out of college 30 years ago (hard to believe that one of our front line fighters was designed nearly a third of a century ago. Even worse to realize that even back then I worked on what was called the ATF =E2=80=93 Advanced Tactical Fighter, which is now called the F-22), one of the first things I was taught was the proper way to design a bolted joint. A bolted joint relies on friction to hold the parts together =E2=80=93 friction caused by the clamping force the bolt applies to the joint. Bolted joints are excellent in carrying shear, less good in tension because the bolt is carrying all the load in tension in addition to the tensile loads imposed on the bolt by tightening. A bolted joint should have no threaded portion of the bolt within the hole in the material. The threads should start beyond the hole, but inside the hole in the washer(s). You want the shank of the bolt to bear against the sides=20of the hole in order to bear shear loads. Choose your grip length to clear the thickness of the bolted joint and then add one or two washers to ensure there will be some thread unengaged. Also be sure there is at least one full thread extending beyond the nut. The hole in the material should be chamfered or counterbored slightly under the head of the bolt to allow for the small radius in the transition area of the bolt where the head meets the shank. If this chamfer is missing and the hole is a tight fit with the bolt diameter, the edge of the hole will tend to cut into this radius, making a stress riser that can cause failure of the bolt. When bolting dissimilar metals (for example, when using a steel bolt on an aluminum part), be certain the cadmium plating (the gold colored surface of=20AN hardware) does not get scratched off. The cad plating provides a sacrificial anodic surface to protect the aluminum from corrosion. If the plating is removed and the joint gets wet, a galvanic cell will be established which will cause corrosion of the aluminum part. Better protection is provided by dipping the hardware in a wet epoxy primer before installation. That was standard practice on the F-16, but I must admit I didn=E2=80=99t go to that extreme on my Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP Jack, That description, and Subject Line, of how to use hardware was a very good addition to the archives. Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:52 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 Jack Phillips, I would like to hear about your flight from Brodhead to Oshkosh. How about those headwinds ??? Chuck G. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:06 PM PST US From: Darrel Jones Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: antique airplane assn --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Darrel Jones Dick Navratil wrote: > After past discussion of AAA, I looked them up today. Looks > interesting for fly ins and such. I also noticed they have a sub > listing for the International Pietenpol Assn. Does anyone belong to > this? Is it worthwhile? I may just try it out. > Dick N. I belonged to the International Pietenpol Association when it was taken over by the AAA. They collected my dues and regularly failed to deliver the publication. You would be better off to join the Vintage Airplane Association of the EAA. Lots of resources and great publications. Darrel Jones N154JP