Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:47 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (BernadetteTS)
2. 04:18 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Ed G.)
3. 04:18 AM - Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Phillips, Jack)
4. 04:57 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (harvey.rule@bell.ca)
5. 05:04 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware ()
6. 05:06 AM - Re: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in (Phillips, Jack)
7. 06:21 AM - step (Douwe Blumberg)
8. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Galen Hutcheson)
9. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Steve Eldredge)
10. 08:15 AM - Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Michael D Cuy)
11. 08:36 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Steve Eldredge)
12. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware ()
13. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Gordon Bowen)
14. 09:09 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked (Jeff Boatright)
15. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Egan, John)
16. 09:43 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air (Steve Ruse)
17. 09:54 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper (Steve Eldredge)
18. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (Steve Eldredge)
19. 09:57 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com)
20. 10:42 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air (Steve Ruse)
21. 10:43 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Dick Navratil)
22. 10:44 AM - Re: A/N Hardware (Jim Courtney)
23. 11:50 AM - AN Hardware (John Hofmann)
24. 11:51 AM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air (Steve Ruse)
25. 12:06 PM - Re: AN Hardware (Steve Ruse)
26. 12:50 PM - Re: AN Hardware (Egan, John)
27. 01:32 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air (walt evans)
28. 01:47 PM - Re: AN Hardware (John Hofmann)
29. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: A/N Hardware (mark thomson)
30. 02:11 PM - Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Rcaprd@aol.com)
31. 02:25 PM - Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Jeff Boatright)
32. 02:30 PM - Re: A/N Hardware (Mitty)
33. 02:41 PM - Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Mitty)
34. 02:45 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper (Dale Johnson)
35. 02:58 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Rcaprd@aol.com)
36. 04:38 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Dick Navratil)
37. 04:55 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper (Gary Gower)
38. 05:15 PM - Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 (Mike Volckmann)
39. 07:05 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Galen Hutcheson)
40. 07:25 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (David Paulsen)
41. 07:44 PM - Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper (Christian Bobka)
42. 08:29 PM - Re: A/N Hardware (Mark)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>
>From: TBYH@aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks tied up in AN hardware that
has to be individually measured and ordered from afar at specialty
prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public fastener store a mile from
my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly cheap prices..I've often
wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early days when he was building
planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal fittings from old cans? I
guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials anymore...
Ed Grentzer
>From: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>
>>
>>From: TBYH@aol.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>>
>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in
>>each specific
>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut did
>>you
>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings? Did
>>you
>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you use
>>self
>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas of
>>the
>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how accurately
>>one
>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>>Fred B.
>
>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts through a
>wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to be stronger
>than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were
>overstressed anyway?
>
>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at the
>local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
>DocFont
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Actually, I didn't see any headwinds. I stayed low (1800' MSL) and got
the crap beat out of me by the turbulence but I was seeing groundspeeds
around 85 knots (98 mph). Made it from Brodhead to Ripon in under an
hour (sure seemed longer, with the turbulence) and then on into OSH.
Landed at OSH in the most crosswind I have yet flown this plane in -
landed on 18R and the winds were from 250 at 18 with gusts to 22.
I kept looking for you there, and was getting worried when you didn't
show. I was glad to hear you were all right.
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total
was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rcaprd@aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05
Jack Phillips,
I would like to hear about your flight from Brodhead to Oshkosh. How
about those headwinds ???
Chuck G.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca
Our planes these days are much safer for using a/n hardware;don't cut
corners as the AME tells me ,stay alive!I do what ever that guy sez come
hell or high water!You do the same so we can read letters from you
later!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed G.
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G." <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks tied up in AN hardware
that
has to be individually measured and ordered from afar at specialty
prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public fastener store a mile
from
my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly cheap prices..I've
often
wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early days when he was
building
planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal fittings from old cans?
I
guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials anymore...
Ed Grentzer
>From: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS
<docfont@voyager.net>
>
>>
>>From: TBYH@aol.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>>
>>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
in
>>each specific
>>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did
>>you
>>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did
>>you
>>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use
>>self
>>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of
>>the
>>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately
>>one
>>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>>Fred B.
>
>May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
>Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a
>wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going to be
stronger
>than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the bolts were
>overstressed anyway?
>
>This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the
>local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
>DocFont
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: <gcardinal@mn.rr.com>
> May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
>
> Why go to the expense of AN hardware when
> bolting together parts through a wood
> structure? The cheapest bolts known to man
> are going to be stronger than wood.
> Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
> bolts were overstressed anyway?
>
> This is not to say I would get my hardware
> from the bulk bins down at the local Farm
> and Fleet store. Just wondering
>
> DocFont
>
>
The re-sale value of your aircraft would be
reduced more than the added
cost of using A/N hardware.
Greg Cardinal
Message 6
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| Subject: | A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in |
Fred, what you'e asking for is probably not very practical. Every
Pietenpol is different, with different thicknesses of material, even if
they used the same plans. You will need to figure it out for yourself
and order the hardware to fit your application.
In general, I used self locking nuts where I could on my plane just
because I find dealing with cotter pins to be a pain in the rear. Be
aware that there are places where self-locking nuts should not be used,
however. They should never be used on a bolt that is subject to
rotation, such as a bolt used to hold a pulley, or a control shackle.
There are several kinds of self-locking nuts. The AN 365 variety uses a
nylon insert that deforms when tightened to hold the nut in place. That
type of nut cannot be used int he engine compartment, or anywhere that
it might see elevated temperatures (the nylon insert will melt and lose
its ability to hold the nut). For high temperature operation, use a
metal stop nut such as AN 363. I prefer to use the low height MS21042
stop nuts. They are metal and can be used anywhere a stop nut is
allowed, and they are shorter and lighter than either AN363 or AN365
stop nuts. They were the standard nut used on the F-16.
As for the suggestion that you can use hardware store hardware, it is
certainly cheaper. You might save as much as $100 over the whole
airplane. Frankly, I don't think it's worth it. Mil spec hardware is
certified to known stresses, and is generally cadmium plated to reduce
corrosion. Piece of mind is important. When I was flying my Pietenpol
over the mountains of West Virginia on the way to Brodhead getting
banged around by turbulence, at least I didn't have to worry "I sure
hope that bolt I bought from Home Depot doesn't break now". Someone
made the comment that the wood parts will break before the hardware. I
doubt it, if the glue joints are properly made. The fittings are
designed to spread the load out in the wood, but the fittings are held
together with the hardware. If the hardware fails, you are in a world
of trouble.
One of the joys of building a plane from scratch is to be able to make
choices about materials. Just make smart choices. Think about it and
make your choices for valid reasons. Pity the kitbuilder - he's paid
someone else to do all his thinking for him. Little of the fun is left
for him to do, just the basic assembly.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TBYH@aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used in
each specific area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN
bolt and nut did you use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the
fuselage fittings? Did you use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the
nuts together, or did you use self locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and
nuts did you use in other areas of the plane? I suppose the sizes can
vary somewhat depending upon how accurately one cuts the wood, but am
hoping to get a little guidance.
Also, if I'm a member of the EAA's Vintage Aircraft Association, can I
attend the Midwest Antique Airplane Association at Brodhead in a few
weeks? Seems I read that this is the case, but would like to make sure.
Also, I can't find any info on joining the MAAC. Anyone got some info?
Best regards,
Fred B.
La Crosse, WI
Message 7
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John,
Another step idea which I've used is the old inward swinging door step. It's very
simple and lightweight. Just a top hinged, spring loaded plate which is flat
with the fuse surface. I've seen guys place these just above the bottom longeron,
but I placed mine higher so that when my foot sticks through, it is on
the pilot's seat.
Didn't do one for the front pit, as I don't think they help much more than the
tire which is already there. Keep it light!!
Douwe
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
I have read comparisons done between AN hardware and
hardware Grade 8 bolts. Apparently, the Grade 8 is
actually a little stronger than the AN bolt of equal
size, but the AN bolt is supposed to elongate before
it fails (allowing the iminient failure to be noticed
and corrected in a timely fashion) whereas the Grade 8
simply gives way without elongating. Both bolts have
an incredible breaking strength (which I would feel
would need a sigificant crash to cause enough energy
to make them fail) and should equally be adequate for
the type of planes we are building. I personally
wouldn't hesitate to use a Grade 8 bolt in many
applications on my project. As to the resale value of
the plane, I believe that the only potential buyers
who would not buy an airplane using grade 8 bolts are
the same people who feel that only AN bolts should
ever be used in the first place. I for one, whould
not downgrade a plane that used Grade 8 bolts and I
have bought many airplanes.
I believe that using bolts of equivalent strength (and
protective coating) should be equally safe. I prefer
to use AN hardware in areas of known stress which
could cause a catastropic failure and where the bolts
can be easily inspected for elongation and use Grade 8
bolts in less critical places.
These are my opinions only and each builder must make
his own judgements on what is or is not safe.
Doc H.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of Ed G.
> Sent: August 11, 2005 7:18 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ed G."
> <flyboy_120@hotmail.com>
>
> Good question DocFont...I have quite a few bucks
> tied up in AN hardware
> that
> has to be individually measured and ordered from
> afar at specialty
> prices...Yet there is a wholesale to the public
> fastener store a mile
> from
> my workplace with great quality stuff at amazingly
> cheap prices..I've
> often
> wondered if Bernard used AN hardware in the early
> days when he was
> building
> planes from lumberyard spruce and makeing metal
> fittings from old cans?
> I
> guess our planes just aren't barnyard specials
> anymore...
> Ed Grentzer
>
>
> >From: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
> >Reply-To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:46:28 -0400
> >
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS
> <docfont@voyager.net>
> >
> >>
>
> >
> >May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
> >
> >Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting
> together parts
> through a
> >wood structure?
> >
> >DocFont
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BernadetteTS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>
>From: TBYH@aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
Message 10
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| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
ce.ca>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
Guess how much...
Up to $45 each.
http://store.wagaero.com/
Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
Wow.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com>
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
For those of you who'd like to get a little better education on bolts and
such, before using same in your death defying experimental, go buy
Sacramento Sky Ranch tech book. Lots of good stuff as to why you may want
to stick with AN quality bolts on props, etc. Secondly, little tidbits
like AN bolts have their threads pressed in, vs Grade 8 bolts having their
threads cut in, perhaps leading to stressor cracks, prop losses, puckered-up
glider flying and nasty soybean field landings.
Gordon Bowen -Homer Alaska
Cozy IV N64CY
Osprey II N64SY
Pietenpol N-1033B
" There are no passengers on spaceship Earth, we are all crew", McLuhan
Message 14
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<984E798CE7C4D4419A6D99DF385597A8156437@toroondc511.bell.corp.b ce.ca>
<5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8@popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
Air Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked |
Air Camper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
Grades 5 and 8 used to be used in the auto industry a lot (may still
be). Aut restorers often use grade 8 thinking that it's better
because it's "stronger". I guess it's the Spinal Tap theory (But mine
goes to 11!). However, for many suspension applications, grade 5,
which is "weaker" but less brittle, is proper.
I wonder if these failures would have occurred if fasteners with
proper characteristics had been used? I'm not advocating using grade
5 hardware on an airplane, but if you're going to use non-A/N, at
least research what you're doing.
At 11:14 AM -0400 8/11/05, Michael D Cuy wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
><Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
>In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
>flew with me from Cleveland for
>about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
>gone. I found out that the builders
>both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
>Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
>compression forces of the hub) and his
>engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
>up front. He landed in a soybean
>field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
>axle and flip him. Major damage, no
>injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
>nearby. I say use whatever you want for
>hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
>stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>a hangar.
>
>Mike C.
>
>
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
I also use "temporary" hardware as I learn what specific length AN bolt
is needed, however I use wing nuts for my temporary nuts because they
are easy to hand tighten, and they are very obvious to identify not to
be left on the final project....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
<jphillip@alarismed.com>
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
Message 16
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|
Camper
| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
A few weeks ago I bought some new AN6-42A bolts and locking nuts for my
A-75. I
paid nearly $60, and walked out of the store with my jaw dragging (its a local
aviation supply house). I needed them immediately, otherwise I would have
ordered them. Aircraft Spruce has the same bolts for $1.94 each, or
$11.64 for
six of them. You can get them with a drilled shank or head.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anbolts.php
You can get AN "prop bolts" from Sensenich and others, and they will
charge you
a LOT more ($230 to $255 for a set of six AN6 bolts). You might wonder what
you are getting for that extra $220 or so (an 1,800% markup). Obviously these
"prop bolts" must be made from some exotic material, probably x-rayed and
magna-fluxed to look for grain structure flaws at the factory, right? Wrong.
You are paying for Sensenich's "receiving inspection procedures". Basically
they test some of the bolts occasionally, and they measure them. Not worth
$220 IMO. Buy AN bolts that were manufactured in the US, make sure you
get the
right length, and I think that is probably the best you can get.
READ the thread in this link! It has responses from Sensenich QC people:
http://www2.sensenich.com/discuss/messages/77/220.html?1101437673
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sensalumbolts.php
You do have to be very careful to get the exact right length of thread so that
you don't bottom out the nut on the bolt. Otherwise you'll stretch the bolt
where the threads start, it will fail, and you'll break your plane and maybe
die. To determine where the nut will bottom out, I install the nut on the
bolt, turn it by hand until it bottoms out where the threads end, back it off
one turn, and then mark the bolt or count threads. That way you know
where you
have to stop torquing the bolt (and that you need longer ones). Keep in mind
that the prop compresses, so you'll need a little more thread than your
measurements indicate.
You can buy AN bolts from Spruce in 1/8" length increments, and there may only
be two bolt lengths that will work with your prop due to the short threaded
area. That means you have to do some very careful measuring with all of the
washers, your prop, and hub.
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
This is what I did before I even knew there were "prop-bolts" sold at an
outrageous premium. Glad to hear that is not uncommon. Sorry you had
to pay the gouging price... Ouch.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
<steve@wotelectronics.com>
A few weeks ago I bought some new AN6-42A bolts and locking nuts for my
A-75. I
paid nearly $60, and walked out of the store with my jaw dragging (its a
local
aviation supply house). I needed them immediately, otherwise I would
have
ordered them. Aircraft Spruce has the same bolts for $1.94 each, or
$11.64 for
six of them. You can get them with a drilled shank or head.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anbolts.php
You can get AN "prop bolts" from Sensenich and others, and they will
charge you
a LOT more ($230 to $255 for a set of six AN6 bolts). You might wonder
what
you are getting for that extra $220 or so (an 1,800% markup). Obviously
these
"prop bolts" must be made from some exotic material, probably x-rayed
and
magna-fluxed to look for grain structure flaws at the factory, right?
Wrong.
You are paying for Sensenich's "receiving inspection procedures".
Basically
they test some of the bolts occasionally, and they measure them. Not
worth
$220 IMO. Buy AN bolts that were manufactured in the US, make sure you
get the
right length, and I think that is probably the best you can get.
READ the thread in this link! It has responses from Sensenich QC
people:
http://www2.sensenich.com/discuss/messages/77/220.html?1101437673
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sensalumbolts.php
You do have to be very careful to get the exact right length of thread
so that
you don't bottom out the nut on the bolt. Otherwise you'll stretch the
bolt
where the threads start, it will fail, and you'll break your plane and
maybe
die. To determine where the nut will bottom out, I install the nut on
the
bolt, turn it by hand until it bottoms out where the threads end, back
it off
one turn, and then mark the bolt or count threads. That way you know
where you
have to stop torquing the bolt (and that you need longer ones). Keep in
mind
that the prop compresses, so you'll need a little more thread than your
measurements indicate.
You can buy AN bolts from Spruce in 1/8" length increments, and there
may only
be two bolt lengths that will work with your prop due to the short
threaded
area. That means you have to do some very careful measuring with all of
the
washers, your prop, and hub.
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
Air
> Camper
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
I like the wing-nut idea. Very appropriate!
Steve "wingnut" E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Egan,
John
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
I also use "temporary" hardware as I learn what specific length AN bolt
is needed, however I use wing nuts for my temporary nuts because they
are easy to hand tighten, and they are very obvious to identify not to
be left on the final project....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Phillips, Jack
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack"
<jphillip@alarismed.com>
Great idea, Steve. That accomplishes getting good hardware without
ordering too much or ordering the wrong kinds. I don't know how many
times I would order specific hardware, then forget I had ordered it and
order more before I found the first batch. Your method should prevent
that and keep expenses down. It also lets you proceed with the
construction without having to wait for particular hardware to come in.
I'm sure that was one way you were able to build a good, quality
airplane for such a low price.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-----Original Message-----
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
------
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may
contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is
exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in
error, please inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail
and destroy any printed copy. Thank you.
========================================================================
======
Message 19
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| Subject: | Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" <jphillip@alarismed.com>
Huh? I just checked Aircraft Spruce, and they are showing $2.50 each
for AN6H-43, or AN6H-43A. You can buy the undrilled ones a little
cheaper and drill them yourself
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposables Product Development
Clinical Technologies and Services
Cardinal Health
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Eldredge
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
Air Camper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
Guess how much...
Up to $45 each.
http://store.wagaero.com/
Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
Wow.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
D Cuy
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
with
me from Cleveland for
about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
gone. I found out that the builders
both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
compression forces of the hub) and his
engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
front. He landed in a soybean
field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
flip him. Major damage, no
injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
I
say use whatever you want for
hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
stuff
is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
a hangar.
Mike C.
Message 20
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|
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8@popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
Quoting Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave me was
to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood will
continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is bolt
fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but there
a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts at the
firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double as
cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
Dick N.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were gone.
> I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
Thanks for the great link about AN bolts!...
Sincerely,
Jim Courtney
Florence, Mississippi
jbciii5656@yahoo.com or Jbciii5656@aol.com
John and Phyllis Smoyer <jpsmoyer@verizon.net> wrote:
I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can decode the AN nomenclature to some
degree:
The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the diameter of the bolt in increments
of 1/16 inch. For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4 bolts
are 1/4" dia, and so on.
The dash number identifies the length of the bolt, but the numbers don't correspond
directly to the length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length as an
AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10. Also, AN bolts aren't threaded
along their entire length, so you can run into problems there, also.
I found this site on google, and it looks like it can tell you all you need to
know.
http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even includes a down-loadable program.
HOpe this helps.
Best Regards,
John Smoyer
---------------------------------
Message 23
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when accurately
torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save the
couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two cents.
-john-
John Hofmann
A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
Message 24
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|
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8@popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up Saturday
morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
typicaly
loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
set the
wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you don't
loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque value,
do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque reading is
taken when the nut is moving)?
Thanks,
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting Dick Navratil <horzpool@goldengate.net>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
> <horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave me was
> to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood will
> continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is bolt
> fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but there
> a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts at the
> firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double as
> cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
>
> Dick N.
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
>> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>>
>> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
>> flew with me from Cleveland for
>> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
>> gone. I found out that the builders
>> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
>> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
>> compression forces of the hub) and his
>> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
>> up front. He landed in a soybean
>> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
>> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
>> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
>> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
>> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
>> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>> a hangar.
>>
>> Mike C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 25
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
John (or anyone),
Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled threads are
preferred, correct?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann
> <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
>
> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when accurately
> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save the
> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two cents.
>
> -john-
> John Hofmann
> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
Message 26
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|
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
I'll jump into this one, I took some classes once.... I recall rolled
threads have more radius edges (points and valleys) which is created
when the threads get formed by a die, where cut threads have sharper
points and valleys from being cut. I also recall that a rolled thread,
has a larger minor diameter (the diameter at the root of the thread),
and the major diameter may also be a little larger than that of cut
threads. This is because the material is not being cut away from the
major diameter (shank), it's being re-located to another area of the
bolt. The major diameter of the threaded portion (rolled threads) of the
bolt grows in size, where on cut threads, the material gets cut away
because as you cut, you remove some of the outer diameter. That's my
recollection from that day in school in 1984, and it's not obvious to me
how the threads were formed when I casually look at a bolt.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Ruse
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
<steve@wotelectronics.com>
John (or anyone),
Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled
threads are
preferred, correct?
Steve Ruse
N6383J - KFTW
Quoting John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann
> <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
>
> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when
accurately
> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save
the
> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two
cents.
>
> -john-
> John Hofmann
> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged,
confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure
under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform us promptly
by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy.
Thank you.
==============================================================================
Message 27
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|
Camper
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air |
Camper
ce.ca> <5.1.1.5.2.20050811111013.0155cae8@popserve.grc.nasa.gov>
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "walt evans" <wbeevans@verizon.net>
Just remember,,,Harder doesn't mean tougher.
It seems that AN bolts can be tied in a pretzel knot whithout
breaking,,,cold.
My Mentor told a story of a crash of a Mooney. Appariently the Mooneys use
a very small engine mount bolt. 3/8" (AN-6) (I think, or smaller)
He said he saw the aftermath of the crash. The plane twisted into a
horseshoe. The tail came around to meet the nose.
He said the mount bolts suffered no damage. Amazing with all the forces
involved.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
<Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 28
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--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
I used to have a sheet with a diagram pointing out the differences. I will
see if I can find it. I also remember seeing diagrams or photos attached to
the Piper lift strut fork AD of several years ago requiring cut thread forks
being replaced with rolled thread forks. I posted this AD two or three years
ago but can't seem to find it now.
-john-
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Egan, John" <jegan@kcc.com>
>
> I'll jump into this one, I took some classes once.... I recall rolled
> threads have more radius edges (points and valleys) which is created
> when the threads get formed by a die, where cut threads have sharper
> points and valleys from being cut. I also recall that a rolled thread,
> has a larger minor diameter (the diameter at the root of the thread),
> and the major diameter may also be a little larger than that of cut
> threads. This is because the material is not being cut away from the
> major diameter (shank), it's being re-located to another area of the
> bolt. The major diameter of the threaded portion (rolled threads) of the
> bolt grows in size, where on cut threads, the material gets cut away
> because as you cut, you remove some of the outer diameter. That's my
> recollection from that day in school in 1984, and it's not obvious to me
> how the threads were formed when I casually look at a bolt.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
> Ruse
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:06 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: AN Hardware
>
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>
> John (or anyone),
>
> Is there a simple way to identify cut vs. rolled threads? Rolled
> threads are
> preferred, correct?
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting John Hofmann <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>:
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: John Hofmann
>> <jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com>
>>
>> Be careful out there. Cadmium plating, proper bolt stretch when
> accurately
>> torqued and rolled vs. cut threads are three reasons not to skimp on
>> hardware, especially in critical areas. I don't think I want to save
> the
>> couple hundred dollars on the project in hardware costs. Just my two
> cents.
>>
>> -john-
>> John Hofmann
>> A&P and restorer of a few old flivvers.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain
> privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from
> disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please
> inform us promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any
> printed copy. Thank you.
> ==============================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: mark thomson <kr2@earthlink.net>
you might want to make life easier on yourself by calling a couple of aircraft
distributers and they will be happy to send you FREE an A&N bolt chart so will
be able to match up what you need.........just a suggestion......
lots of good landings......Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Bolt Help
I'll tell you what I did to solve this problem when I was building. I
couldn't afford to buy what I didn't need, but I could afford hardware
store nuts and bolts at about $1.50 a pound. So I bought several pounds
of 3/16 and 1/4" nuts and bolts and went home and painted them blue.
These were my temporary fasteners to put the plane together and get me a
very accurate list of what I would need in AN hardware. After assembly
I would record what I needed and order the good stuff. One of the
things I would check as I neared completion is for blue hardware. Now,
after going through that hassle and having some extra money to spend, I
ordered one of the aircraft bolt kits so I could have at least a couple
AN bolts of every size for future projects. As an added bonus I have a
bunch of used hardware variety bolts that get used around the house for
various non-flying projects.... If you don't mind blue bolts.
Hope this helps,
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BernadetteTS
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A/N Hardware
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: BernadetteTS <docfont@voyager.net>
>
>From: TBYH@aol.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: A/N Hardware & MAAC Fly-in
>
>I guess I wasn't very clear in my question the other day -- what I'm
>wondering is if anyone has a list of the A/N hardware that they used
>in each specific
>area of their Air Camper. For example, what specific AN bolt and nut
did you
>use to attach the wood landing gear struts at the fuselage fittings?
Did you
>use drilled bolts and safety-wired all the nuts together, or did you
use self
>locking nuts? What size A/N bolts and nuts did you use in other areas
of the
>plane? I suppose the sizes can vary somewhat depending upon how
accurately one
>cuts the wood, but am hoping to get a little guidance.
>Fred B.
May I piggyback a question onto this topic?
Why go to the expense of AN hardware when bolting together parts
through a wood structure? The cheapest bolts known to man are going
to be stronger than wood. Wouldn't the wooden parts fail before the
bolts were overstressed anyway?
This is not to say I would get my hardware from the bulk bins down at
the local Farm and Fleet store. Just wondering
DocFont
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
jphillip@alarismed.com writes:
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total was
2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack,
I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone on the
list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail form to
the list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
Chuck G.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
I second that. I'd love to hear about it.
At 5:11 PM -0400 8/11/05, Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time,
>jphillip@alarismed.com writes:
>
>I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want.
>Total was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
>
>Jack,
>I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most
>everyone on the list would love to hear it, too. Why not just post
>it in the e-mail form to the list ? Include your tail # in the
>subject line.
>
>Chuck G.
--
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mitty <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
Jim Courtney,
Where do you fly??
I live in jackson,ms and fly at Pisgah.Email me off
list and let's chat!
Mitty
--- Jim Courtney <jbciii5656@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the great link about AN bolts!...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jim Courtney
> Florence, Mississippi
>
>
>
> jbciii5656@yahoo.com or Jbciii5656@aol.com
>
>
> John and Phyllis Smoyer <jpsmoyer@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> I don't know of a definitive listing, but I can
> decode the AN nomenclature to some degree:
>
> The number(s) after the letters "AN" identifies the
> diameter of the bolt in increments of 1/16 inch.
> For example, and AN3 bolt or nut is 3/16" dia. AN 4
> bolts are 1/4" dia, and so on.
>
> The dash number identifies the length of the bolt,
> but the numbers don't correspond directly to the
> length. In fact, AN3-10 bolt is not the same length
> as an AN4-10 is not the same length as an AN5-10.
> Also, AN bolts aren't threaded along their entire
> length, so you can run into problems there, also.
>
> I found this site on google, and it looks like it
> can tell you all you need to know.
> http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/gyro/bolts.htm. It even
> includes a down-loadable program.
>
> HOpe this helps.
>
> Best Regards,
> John Smoyer
>
>
> ---------------------------------
__________________________________
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mitty <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
Me too. Please send it to me as well cuz i knwo next
year i'll go for sure!
--- Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> wrote:
> I second that. I'd love to hear about it.
>
> At 5:11 PM -0400 8/11/05, Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central
> Standard Time,
> >jphillip@alarismed.com writes:
> >
> >I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you
> if you want.
> >Total was 2,147 miles and 37 hours of flying.
> >
> >Jack,
> >I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am
> sure most
> >everyone on the list would love to hear it, too.
> Why not just post
> >it in the e-mail form to the list ? Include your
> tail # in the
> >subject line.
> >
> >Chuck G.
>
>
> --
>
>
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
> Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA,
> USA
> Senior Editor, Molecular Vision,
> http://www.molvis.org/molvis
> mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dale Johnson" <ddjohn@earthlink.net>
Steve
The proper way to re-torque a prop is to looosen the bolts a lot and let it
sit for at lease an hour.
Then start over and torque to the proper setting.
Dale Mpls,
> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/11/2005 1:51:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
<steve@wotelectronics.com>
>
> Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up
Saturday
> morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
>
> To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
> typicaly
> loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
> set the
> wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you
don't
> loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque
value,
> do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque
reading is
> taken when the nut is moving)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting Dick Navratil <horzpool@goldengate.net>:
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
> > <horzpool@goldengate.net>
> >
> > When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave
me was
> > to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood
will
> > continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is
bolt
> > fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but
there
> > a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts
at the
> > firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double
as
> > cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
> >
> > Dick N.
> > Dick N.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael D Cuy" <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> > Camper
> >
> >
> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> >> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
> >>
> >> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
> >> flew with me from Cleveland for
> >> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> >> gone. I found out that the builders
> >> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> >> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> >> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> >> compression forces of the hub) and his
> >> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
> >> up front. He landed in a soybean
> >> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
> >> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
> >> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
> >> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
> >> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> >> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> >> a hangar.
> >>
> >> Mike C.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
In a message dated 8/11/2005 12:43:49 PM Central Standard Time,
steve@wotelectronics.com writes:
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
I remember this occurance. They both neglected to re-torque the prop as
routine maintenance.
This is why I re-torque my prop at least 5 or 6 times in the course of a 12
month period, and record each date in my log book. I remove the safety wire,
loosen and break the bolt loose, then re-torque to the spec that I have written
on the inside of the skull cap...I think it is 15 to 17 ft. lbs. The method
that Dale mentioned, about loosening the bolts and letting it sit for an hour,
makes sense. It allows the wood to breath a little. I've never done it that
way, but I think I'll change my task planning to accomodate that method.
Don't forget to re-check the track.
Chuck G.
Chuck G.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
One other small follow up point is that the Model A engine only has 4 prop bolts
so this becomes more critical.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rcaprd@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper
In a message dated 8/11/2005 12:43:49 PM Central Standard Time, steve@wotelectronics.com
writes:
Michael,
I'm curious what the failure mode was on these bolts. Surely they didn't just
break in tension. And they shouldn't have broken in shear unless they weren't
torqued properly (or maybe they loosened over time, but that shouldn't be due
to them being grade 8). Any idea? I'm not saying anyone should use
Grade 8 on
a prop, I use AN bolts and will continue to, but I'm curious what
characteristic
of the grade 8 bolts caused them to fail in this case.
Steve Ruse
I remember this occurance. They both neglected to re-torque the prop as routine
maintenance.
This is why I re-torque my prop at least 5 or 6 times in the course of a 12 month
period, and record each date in my log book. I remove the safety wire, loosen
and break the bolt loose, then re-torque to the spec that I have written
on the inside of the skull cap...I think it is 15 to 17 ft. lbs. The method
that Dale mentioned, about loosening the bolts and letting it sit for an hour,
makes sense. It allows the wood to breath a little. I've never done it that
way, but I think I'll change my task planning to accomodate that method. Don't
forget to re-check the track.
Chuck G.
Chuck G.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked AirCamper |
Just one very important thing, to do: Once you finish the bolt torque process,
before safety the wire, check the actual tracking of the propeller tips...
Is not common to happen, but if the track is not correct, could make a vibration
on the engine... If out of tracking, retorque and/or shim,.
Hope this helps
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Dale Johnson <ddjohn@earthlink.net> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dale Johnson"
Steve
The proper way to re-torque a prop is to looosen the bolts a lot and let it
sit for at lease an hour.
Then start over and torque to the proper setting.
Dale Mpls,
> [Original Message]
> From: Steve Ruse
> To:
> Date: 8/11/2005 1:51:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked
AirCamper
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
>
> Speaking of re-torquing prop bolts, I need to do that before I go up
Saturday
> morning. I'd like to get the opinion of the experts here before I do so.
>
> To avoid overtightening of prop bolts when checking the torque, do you
> typicaly
> loosen the bolts a little (1/16 turn), then re-torque to spec? Or just
> set the
> wrench to the max recomended torque value and check the bolt? If you
don't
> loosen the bolts first, and they don't budge at the recommended torque
value,
> do you then loosen the bolts and re-torque (since the proper torque
reading is
> taken when the nut is moving)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Ruse
> N6383J - KFTW
>
> Quoting Dick Navratil :
>
> > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick Navratil"
> >
> >
> > When the DAR did my inspection, one of the strongest warnings he gave
me was
> > to check and re-check the torque on the prop bolts every 30 days. Wood
will
> > continue to give and the most common reason fo prop bolt failure is
bolt
> > fatigue dut to the lack of torque. I used AN bolts mostly on mine but
there
> > a few non structural places with stainless and my engine mount bolts
at the
> > firewall are Grade 8 because I needed a longer thread area so to double
as
> > cowling attach points. The inspector was fine with that.
> >
> > Dick N.
> > Dick N.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael D Cuy"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:14 AM
> > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> > Camper
> >
> >
> >> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> >>
> >>
> >> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area
> >> flew with me from Cleveland for
> >> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> >> gone. I found out that the builders
> >> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their props.
> >> Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> >> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> >> compression forces of the hub) and his
> >> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop
> >> up front. He landed in a soybean
> >> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight
> >> axle and flip him. Major damage, no
> >> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field
> >> nearby. I say use whatever you want for
> >> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> >> stuff is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> >> a hangar.
> >>
> >> Mike C.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Brodhead to Oshkosh '05 |
Jack,
I also would really appreciate reading the journal of your trip. I think that
some of my favorite read for enjoyment reading were books such as "The Flight
of the Gin Viz".
Mike
Rcaprd@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 8/11/2005 6:19:46 AM Central Standard Time, jphillip@alarismed.com
writes:
I wrote a journal of my trip that I can send to you if you want. Total was 2,147
miles and 37 hours of flying.
Jack,
I would really enjoy hearing about your trip. I am sure most everyone on the list
would love to hear it, too. Why not just post it in the e-mail form to the
list ? Include your tail # in the subject line.
Chuck G.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
I doubt the prop failure was caused because the bolts
were Grade 8 rather than AN. More likely the failure
was due to improper torqueing and maintence. I have
seen AN bolts fail under the same circumstances. I do
believe that AN bolts have certain qualities that make
them important in certain applications, but to say
that they must be used in "All" applications (except
in certificated airplanes) is being a little
extremeist. I think common sense should prevail when
appying what type of bolt goes where. Not everything
on an airplane is a critical structural area and
therefore doesn't need the AN treatment. I do not
classify Grade 8 bolts as junk. They are quite strong
enough to be used in some areas of an aircraft. I
would not use them for prop bolts, for instance. To
keep things in perspective, we are building
experimental aircraft, not certificated aircraft and
do not have to meet standards that are not appropriate
for the type of airplanes we are building. We can
build safe airplanes by using good judgement and
common sense. The safe airplane is the goal we all
should be striving for. (And yes, I can afford AN
bolts when I decide I need them for the proper
application.)
Doc H
--- Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the
> Brockport, NY area flew with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back
> both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for
> their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let
> go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went
> down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle
> around his straight axle and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an
> open field nearby. I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you
> use junk. If AN stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "David Paulsen" <dpaul@fidnet.com>
Sorry to butt in on the hardware subject. Recently someone on the list was
looking for a Piet project that had much of the woodwork completed. Can
anyone remember who that was. Thanks - Dave Paulsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Galen Hutcheson" <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Galen Hutcheson
> <wacopitts@yahoo.com>
>
> I doubt the prop failure was caused because the bolts
> were Grade 8 rather than AN. More likely the failure
> was due to improper torqueing and maintence. I have
> seen AN bolts fail under the same circumstances. I do
> believe that AN bolts have certain qualities that make
> them important in certain applications, but to say
> that they must be used in "All" applications (except
> in certificated airplanes) is being a little
> extremeist. I think common sense should prevail when
> appying what type of bolt goes where. Not everything
> on an airplane is a critical structural area and
> therefore doesn't need the AN treatment. I do not
> classify Grade 8 bolts as junk. They are quite strong
> enough to be used in some areas of an aircraft. I
> would not use them for prop bolts, for instance. To
> keep things in perspective, we are building
> experimental aircraft, not certificated aircraft and
> do not have to meet standards that are not appropriate
> for the type of airplanes we are building. We can
> build safe airplanes by using good judgement and
> common sense. The safe airplane is the goal we all
> should be striving for. (And yes, I can afford AN
> bolts when I decide I need them for the proper
> application.)
>
> Doc H
>
> --- Michael D Cuy <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
>> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>>
>> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the
>> Brockport, NY area flew with
>> me from Cleveland for
>> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back
>> both planes were
>> gone. I found out that the builders
>> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for
>> their
>> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
>> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let
>> go, loosening the
>> compression forces of the hub) and his
>> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went
>> down with no prop up
>> front. He landed in a soybean
>> field and the beans were high enough to tangle
>> around his straight axle and
>> flip him. Major damage, no
>> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an
>> open field nearby. I
>> say use whatever you want for
>> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you
>> use junk. If AN stuff
>> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
>> a hangar.
>>
>> Mike C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air Camper |
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" <sbobka@charter.net>
Wagaero is always a rip off. I have ordered from them once in my life.
Since then I have learned that they are very high priced.
Chris
Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
Camper
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
>
> I just looked at the price for prop bolts for my A-65.
>
> Guess how much...
>
> Up to $45 each.
>
> http://store.wagaero.com/
>
> Wood-Prop Bolts, Drilled Shank, AN6H-43
>
> Wow.
>
> Stevee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> D Cuy
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:15 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 Prop bolts forced landing--wrecked Air
> Camper
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy
> <Michael.D.Cuy@grc.nasa.gov>
>
> In 1998 two Ford powered Air Campers from the Brockport, NY area flew
> with
> me from Cleveland for
> about 1/2 hour towards Brodhead when I looked back both planes were
> gone. I found out that the builders
> both used Grade 8 bolts from the hardware store for their
> props. Evidently the bolts failed (there were burn
> marks on the back of the prop while each bolt let go, loosening the
> compression forces of the hub) and his
> engine rpm went thru the roof...and then he went down with no prop up
> front. He landed in a soybean
> field and the beans were high enough to tangle around his straight axle
> and
> flip him. Major damage, no
> injuries. The other Air Camper landed safely in an open field nearby.
> I
> say use whatever you want for
> hardware, but don't take anyone for a ride if you use junk. If AN
> stuff
> is too pricey, wait til you try to pay for
> a hangar.
>
> Mike C.
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: A/N Hardware |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.273, required 3, AWL -0.27, BAYES_00 -2.60,
J_CHICKENPOX_72 0.60)
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark <aerialphotos@dp.net>
Mitty wrote:
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mitty <benny_bee_01@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Jim Courtney,
>Where do you fly??
>I live in jackson,ms and fly at Pisgah.Email me off
>list and let's chat!
>
>
>Mitty
>
>
Hey I got my commercial ticket in Jackson many years ago. Small world
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