---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/29/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:25 AM - Re: fixed landing gear (Phillips, Jack) 2. 06:24 AM - First off-Field (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 3. 07:52 AM - Re: First off-Field (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)) 4. 08:02 AM - Re: First off-Field (Jeff Boatright) 5. 08:10 AM - Re: First off-Field (Phillips, Jack) 6. 08:45 AM - Re: First off-Field (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 7. 08:55 AM - Re: First off-Field (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 8. 09:28 AM - Re: First off-Field (Tuu2Tango@aol.com) 9. 10:01 AM - Re: First off-Field (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 10. 10:11 AM - Re: First off-Field (Mark) 11. 12:04 PM - Re: First off-Field.. (Gary Gower) 12. 12:19 PM - Re: First off-Field.. (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 13. 03:13 PM - Re: First off-Field.. (Gary Gower) 14. 09:44 PM - Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? (dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle)) 15. 10:32 PM - Re: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? (Christian Bobka) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear From: "Phillips, Jack" Thanks for the heads up, Dick. I'll check mine tonight. I always check the bungees before each flight to ensure that they are still clamped in place and haven't slipped, but I'm not as thorough about checking for chafing. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Subject: Pietenpol-List: fixed landing gear Just a follow up on my landing gear problem. I spent the day at the hangar, removing the wheels and axle. I was shocked to find that my port side bungee had almost completely chaffed thru, not from this incident but from rubbing on a bolt head on the gear leg. For anyone who hasn't checked you bungees in a while, it may be worth unwrapping and checking. I will make a chafe guard out of 2" SCH 40 pvc pipe to cover the bolts. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 09:23:58 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Made my first off-field landing this Saturday evening, due to my own mistake I created a vapor lock between main and header tank. Flew for 25 minutes until my header tank was empty and she went into Glider "mode" Luckily I was at 2000 ft and over lot of flat farm land. Had to land a mile short of the home strip in a freshly harvested corn field, it was rough. But no damage, other than my own pride, sure like that split landing gear with the fat tires ;) I am making some small changes to the fuel lines trying to eliminate of this ever happening again. Hans ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:52 AM PST US ETAuAhUAw6q/92Fi5fWGqeZW1qnmp6Kg+rICFQCAS0yXCJ3ZmvEJZR1kStbqnEbkxw== From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field 08:23:56 -0500 --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan) Hans: What caused the vapor lock? I have been thinking about fuel problems lately. My fuel line runs along the outside of the fus. just above the stringer. In 3 point or climb it runs uphill. In level attitude it runs flat horizontally. I'm thinking I need to change it so everything runs down hill from the tank to the gascolator so any air bubbles flow up hill to the tank. Glad to heare your landing went well. Leon S. In kansas corn country, also with split gear and fat tires. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:34 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright Hans, Congratulations on the successful outcome. When you have time, please tell us what about your current plumbing, how do you think it contributed to the failure, and how do you intend to improve it. Again, only when you have time. Thanks, Jeff At 8:23 AM -0500 8/29/05, hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com wrote: >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com > > >Made my first off-field landing this Saturday evening, due to my own >mistake I created a vapor lock between main and header tank. >Flew for 25 minutes until my header tank was empty and she went into Glider >"mode" >Luckily I was at 2000 ft and over lot of flat farm land. >Had to land a mile short of the home strip in a freshly harvested corn >field, it was rough. > >But no damage, other than my own pride, sure like that split landing gear >with the fat tires ;) > >I am making some small changes to the fuel lines trying to eliminate of >this ever happening again. > >Hans > -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Assistant Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field From: "Phillips, Jack" --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Phillips, Jack" Also, were you running Avgas or auto gas? My airport is out of avgas, with no prospects to get any for the next several weeks, so I'm about ot bite the bullet and run mogas in my Pietenpol. I know avgas has additives to prevent vapor lock and just wondered if you were running mogas and think that might have contributed to the problem? Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jeff Boatright Hans, Congratulations on the successful outcome. When you have time, please tell us what about your current plumbing, how do you think it contributed to the failure, and how do you intend to improve it. Again, only when you have time. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 11:43:56 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Leon, Yes, all fuel lines must run downhill, I ignored that in a 1 inch section (and Murphy's law ruled) My fuel line runs from the left rear end of the center section (rear spar) through a shut off valve to the front left cabane. Where it goes down in to a 2 Gallon Header tank. I tried to keep the fuel line as high up as possible for passenger access this causes a 1 inch curve back up right after the finger strainer and T for the fuel drain valve. This normally ought not be a problem as long as the line is full it will syphon out continuously and there is no heat source to create gas bubbles. But during taxi and run up I left the shut of valve closed, (I did open it before take off as part of my check list). The period during taxi and run up caused air in to enter the Header tank, Header tank has its own vent line. And his vent line gets Ram air during flight and the main tank has a normal vented cap ( no ram air) During flight it thus possible that the air pressure in header tank is higher than in the main tank creating the air blockage or reverse flow. The following I is what I am changing now, The 1 inch curve section is removed by using a short street Tee at the tank. And the line will slope down about an inch (1 : 24 slope) My Air Camper seems to fly a little Tail high so in flight this increases to about 1 : 12 slope, the only time I do not have this slope is during climb out and landing flare, that is why I have a header tank. A check valve will be place in the header tank vent line, air is allowed out but not in. A ram air intake on the main tank to create a slight pressure. And a change in my check list, the main tank shut off valve is to remain open at all times and only to be closed during emergency and maintenance The reason I am certain that this caused the engine shut down is that when I came to standstill after landing, I could hear the fuel run in to the header tank again as there was no more Ram air pressure on the header tank ventline. Although my next flight will be with some nervousness, I do have great confidence in the Pietenpol, It does not have a great glide ratio but with engine out and full stall landing flare you can put it down on postage stamp. Hans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 11:53:05 AM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Jack, I run autogas in my Corvair engine. At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect. A local flies a Beech18 on the field on autogas and he flies a lot higher than I do, it is used sometimes as jump plane climbing to 14000 ft. Also the vapor lock occurred due to my own fault (operator error) and was not created by a heat source. My Gascolator and fuel lines on the firewall are all insulated and sloping down to the carburetor. Hans ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:31 AM PST US From: Tuu2Tango@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time, hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com writes: At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect. Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than 100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when flying over irrigated fields. I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 01:01:07 PM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Thanks, I agree auto gas could be prone to icing quicker. However, I made a 45 minute flight that morning without any problems (Total flying time is now 5 hours). Did get some trouble with carb heat cable sticking and re-lubricated and checked proper operation before the last flight. None the less everything gets checked after every flight hour, I take the cowling off and check for chaffing, anything coming loose or any cracks developing, or anything else out of the ordinary. Hans Tuu2Tango@aol.com Sent by: owner-pietenpol-l To ist-server@matron pietenpol-list@matronics.com ics.com cc Subject 08/29/2005 11:27 Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field AM Please respond to pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time, hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com writes: At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect. Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than 100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when flying over irrigated fields. I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:27 AM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field SpamAssassin (score=-2.552, required 3, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.05, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Tuu2Tango@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time, > hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com writes: > > /At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor > pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect. > / > > Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than > 100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice > out when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and > when flying over irrigated fields. > > I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well. The I think its called the Reid Vapor Pressure isn't going to be the issue, especially if its used in a Piet. Auto gas now often has alchol in it that can degrade fuel lines and seals in some systems. It also isn't the same in different parts of the country. The other thing that is a big watch it is contamination during transport. It's easy to pick up all sorts of nasty things from water to trash that if you don't plan for it can wind up in you tank. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:05 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field.. I dont think is a vapor lock problem,.. If the header tank is pressurized (ram "L") and the wing tank is normally vented, then the air from the header was pushing back the gasoline up to the wing tank. No gasoline could come down by gravity The header should be free vented and the wing tank with the inverted "L" ram pressure, so the gasoline can be transfered with a little of preassure.. The shut off valve should be open only to transfer from the wing tank to the header, or the gasoline will be overflown through the gas cap of the header. Depending in the capacity of both tanks is the amount of gas tranfer each time. Is more simple to do it than to explain it (at least for me) Hope this helps Saludos Gary Gower. Tuu2Tango@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 8/29/2005 9:57:26 AM Central Standard Time, hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com writes: At the low altitudes that I intend to fly I do not believe the vapor pressure difference between Avgas and autogas have a effect. Autogas, regardless of altitude, is more prone to icing the carb than 100LL. Crop dusters (in the old days) had a difficult time keeping ice out when flying at low altitudes, especially in humid conditions and when flying over irrigated fields. I'd double check your carb heat box and make certain it is working well. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field.. From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 08/29/2005 03:19:37 PM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Gary, My ram air "L" of the header tank is placed above main tank level. Tubing is run all the way to top of wing this to avoid overflowing of the headertank. I would like to avoid a manual operation of filling the tank. Come to think of it, the vented gas cap (on top of center section) could be in a low pressure area agrivating the problem I believe a check valve in the header vent line and a Ram "L" on the maintank will do the trick. Thanks Hans ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:46 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: First off-Field.. Hans, I will tell you what we have done is similar gasoline systems: Here (in Mexico) Landing strips or places to land ad refuel (even with auto gas) are few, dificult to find and problem makers, So we have Big experience in gasoline transfer in our ultralights, when we go for XCountry.... Some have worked, some make great glider practice :-) Remember also we4ed killer bottle preassure system) Gasoline transfer in several events sure is dangerous, because is easy to forget (to open or to close the valve) same final gas shortage results. The best system that worked for us (as automatic system) is to handle both tanks as a unit (gravity and pressure talking) Hope can explain clear: As I read you have a 2 galon header, well you have to make the cap of the header airtight (and wire safety closed). This is why: You will always have the system in tranfer. right? The vent of the header will go to the upper part of the main tank, so gasoline will no be pushed back. The (lower) exit of the main tank will go to the upper part of the header.... There will always be fuel in both tanks and hoses. Venting of both tanks will be though the main gas cap. (safety later let me finish) The filler cap of the main tank will be ram pressured. so this preasure will be in both tanks at the same time, is phisics not me, you will always haved to refill though the main tank and the header will always be full.. Now safety: both thanks need a drain plug for water, both need a shut valve, the main tank one should be open in flight always (we safety the valve open position in flight with a simple girl ponytail ruberband), If you need to close this valve in an emergency just pull the ruber band with the finger and close the valve. This way vibration will not close the valve and in an emergency the main suply can be closed. The other safety will be the main shut off valve in the lower header and the gascolator in the lower part of the system. Hope is clear enough... There is another (automatic) fool proof system when a single wing tank is used as reserve... Higher than the main tank. Could explain later, if needed. Hope this helps, 15 years experience with ultralights, 4 hrs plus legs. in XCountry, Several weekends a year with no gas shortage... Lots of fun with less of worry. Saludos Gary Gower. hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com wrote: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Gary, My ram air "L" of the header tank is placed above main tank level. Tubing is run all the way to top of wing this to avoid overflowing of the headertank. I would like to avoid a manual operation of filling the tank. Come to think of it, the vented gas cap (on top of center section) could be in a low pressure area agrivating the problem I believe a check valve in the header vent line and a Ram "L" on the maintank will do the trick. Thanks Hans --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:59 PM PST US From: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) Hi Listers, Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild. http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv Any information on this video would be intersting. Matt -- Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:14 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Christian Bobka" Matt, Quit the footage. Looks like a turbine conversion to a Caribou that took off with the gust lock engaged. Chris Braumeister und Inspektor der Flitzer und Flitzermotoren ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone Know The Story Behind This Crash? > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com (Matt Dralle) > > > Hi Listers, > > Does anyone know the story behind this aircraft and the crash? Almost > looks like an RC model especially given the cameraman's rather > unemotional comment following the crash. Kind of looks like the > elevator may have been hooked up backwards following a rebuild. > > http://media4.big-boys.com/content/oldplanecrash.wmv > > Any information on this video would be intersting. > > Matt > > > -- > > > Matt G. Dralle | Matronics | P.O. Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > 925-606-1001 Voice | 925-606-6281 FAX | dralle@matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ W.W.W. | Featuring Products For Aircraft > >