---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/08/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:50 AM - Starting out / was Digest: ... (Jim Ash) 2. 06:10 AM - Re: Starting out / was Digest: ... (Mark) 3. 08:11 AM - Lots avaiable at West Virginia airpark (Cinda Gadd) 4. 08:28 AM - Aileron & Elevator Gaps (MacklemAW@aol.com) 5. 08:47 AM - Re: Aileron & Elevator Gaps (Jim Markle) 6. 09:01 AM - Re: Aileron & Elevator Gaps (hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com) 7. 09:01 AM - Re: Aileron & Elevator Gaps (Michael D Cuy) 8. 09:23 AM - Re: Starting out / was Digest: ... (Jim Ash) 9. 10:55 AM - Re: Aileron & Elevator Gaps (harvey.rule@bell.ca) 10. 11:26 AM - to gap or not to gap (Michael D Cuy) 11. 02:24 PM - To Skipp Gadd (Dick) 12. 02:34 PM - Re: to gap or not to gap (Graham Hansen) 13. 05:58 PM - Off topic but very worthwhile (Christian Bobka) 14. 07:40 PM - tape to use on ailerons and elevator (Ted Brousseau) 15. 08:10 PM - Re: Aileron & Elevator Gaps (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:00 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Pietenpol-List: Starting out / was Digest: ... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash Tim - If you're just starting to learn to fly and you want to build and fly a Piet, forget the C-152 and get your flight instruction in a light taildragger of some sort (Cub, T-Craft, Champ,...). The dynamics are different. It would be a pain to get your rating in the 152 and then have to go back to add on your taildragger endorsement later, when you could effectively get it for free by starting out in one. When it's over you'll be able to fly the 152 half-awake. Jim Ash At 9/4/2005 09:13 AM -0700, you wrote: >This email is directed to the club in general and our moderator in >particular. ... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:42 AM PST US From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Starting out / was Digest: ... SpamAssassin (score=-2.555, required 3, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60) --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Jim Ash wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash > > Tim - > > If you're just starting to learn to fly and you want to build and fly > a Piet, forget the C-152 and get your flight instruction in a light > taildragger of some sort (Cub, T-Craft, Champ,...). The dynamics are > different. It would be a pain to get your rating in the 152 and then > have to go back to add on your taildragger endorsement later, when you > could effectively get it for free by starting out in one. > > When it's over you'll be able to fly the 152 half-awake. > > Jim Ash > > Jim It might be a good idea, but you you intend to buy a tailwheel airplane, you have to find a place to rent a tailwheel airplane and those are few and far between. The reason is simple. Insurance or the lack thereof. The last time I checked insurance companies simply were not covering tailwheel airplanes for rent at any price. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:16 AM PST US From: "Cinda Gadd" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lots avaiable at West Virginia airpark Just found out there are 2 or 3 lots for sale at this vary Pietenpol friendly airpark. We have a grass runway which we are extending from 2600 to 3000 feet. Three Piets are under construction here. http://www.geocities.com/haleslanding/ Contact me off list for details. Skip Gadd csfog@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:23 AM PST US From: MacklemAW@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps Recently there was some discussion about sealing airfoil gaps. Someone recommended piano hinges for the ailerons. Any reason why this wouldn't work for the elevators too? Allan W. Macklem MacklemAW@aol.com TEL: 402 880 6559 // 402 289 2298 FAX: 402 289 3474 Personal growth comes from being surrounded by highly talented people. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:49 AM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps DNA: do not archive Its-Bogus: do not forward to list - No Plain-Text Section --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps From: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com 27, 2005) at 09/08/2005 12:00:55 PM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: hans.vander.voort@alfalaval.com Allan, Yes, I am sure you can get it to work but is it needed? My Pietenpol is very responsive on elevator and rudder with the Vi Kapler hinges. No gap seals. I do have the piano hinges on the Ailerons, only because it is easier to make. Some claim better aileron response but I can not confirm or deny that, never flew the other type. Good response on Aileron though. Hans ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:22 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps hlink.net> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Jim-- I agree. Aluminum piano hinges are a simple aileron gap solution, and I really don't think that seals on the tail surfaces are worth the hassle. Mine flies just fine without them. If you recess (route out) your hinge areas wether using the Vi Kapler cast aluminum hinges or make you own per plans as I did (what a pain those are !) you can get a fairly tight gap there. The GN-1's have huge gaps with the way they show to do the tailsurface and aileron hinges. No knock---just pointing out some differences in the planes. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:31 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Starting out / was Digest: ... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash I know of two Cubs for rent in this general area, but I don't know if/how they handle the insurance or if they'll cover primary instruction. I've got a friend who's livelihood is teaching and giving rides in taildraggers. Three(?) years ago he stopped renting his Cub solo, because the insurance was $1800 or $3600, depending on solo rental, so I understand the issue. Jim Ash northern New Hampshire -----Original Message----- From: Mark Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Starting out / was Digest: ... --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mark Jim Ash wrote: > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash > > Tim - > > If you're just starting to learn to fly and you want to build and fly > a Piet, forget the C-152 and get your flight instruction in a light > taildragger of some sort (Cub, T-Craft, Champ,...). The dynamics are > different. It would be a pain to get your rating in the 152 and then > have to go back to add on your taildragger endorsement later, when you > could effectively get it for free by starting out in one. > > When it's over you'll be able to fly the 152 half-awake. > > Jim Ash > > Jim It might be a good idea, but you you intend to buy a tailwheel airplane, you have to find a place to rent a tailwheel airplane and those are few and far between. The reason is simple. Insurance or the lack thereof. The last time I checked insurance companies simply were not covering tailwheel airplanes for rent at any price. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps From: harvey.rule@bell.ca --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca My AME sez go fly the plane without gap seals on either airlerone or elevator.He sez I may not need them.He sez if you find you do then put them on but not before. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael D Cuy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Jim-- I agree. Aluminum piano hinges are a simple aileron gap solution, and I really don't think that seals on the tail surfaces are worth the hassle. Mine flies just fine without them. If you recess (route out) your hinge areas wether using the Vi Kapler cast aluminum hinges or make you own per plans as I did (what a pain those are !) you can get a fairly tight gap there. The GN-1's have huge gaps with the way they show to do the tailsurface and aileron hinges. No knock---just pointing out some differences in the planes. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:56 AM PST US From: Michael D Cuy Subject: Pietenpol-List: to gap or not to gap ce.ca> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Michael D Cuy Frank Pavliga's plane first flew without aileron seals and after the first few flights they put on fabric gap seals (that were pre-finished ahead of installation) and he said it made a vast improvement on aileron response. You could fly them without---for sure, you bet--you'll just get more umph from them when sealed. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:38 PM PST US From: Dick Subject: Pietenpol-List: To Skipp Gadd --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Dick Skipp - tried to mail you 'off-list' w/out success. The kick back message would not work for me. Am interested in West Virginia (born and raised) - now in CA. Pls try me off list. 73's, Dick ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:47 PM PST US From: "Graham Hansen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to gap or not to gap --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Graham Hansen" In 1963, I flew a friend's Pietenpol which had no gap seals and the aileron response was extremely sluggish. In fact, it was necessary to use some rudder to bring up a low wing if a reasonable response was desired. He had not used the standard Pietenpol wingtip, but had simply terminated the outboard end of the wing at a rib (eg. Mooney). At the time, I thought this might have been a factor, but it wasn't. Later, he used tape as a gap seal and said the aileron response was much improved but, since I never flew it again, I cannot attest to this. When I first flew my Pietenpol in1970 there had been a lot of talk about poor aileron response without gap seals, and I distinctly remembered my experience with Floyd's airplane. So I used plastic tape from the beginning, reasoning that poor aileron response would be one thing less to deal with during initial test flights. Later, I experimented by removing the sealing tape, a bit at a time, until one aileron was completely unsealed. In this condition, the seal-less wing definitely tended to "fly low", and aileron response had been noticeably degraded. Needless to say, my Pietenpol has had aileron gap seals ever since and its aileron response with them is excellent. In 1985, I replaced all the fabric covering (the original Grade A cotton had deteriorated over a 15 year period) with polyester aircraft fabric and used fabric surface tapes to seal the aileron gaps as well as the "tailfeather" gaps. The elevator and rudder gaps were previously not sealed, and this change made a noticeable improvement in their effectiveness--especially in raising the tail earlier during the takeoff run. Note to Harvey: ************ Your airplane is a Grega GN-1 and I believe the aileron design is different from that of the Pietenpol. Nevertheless, I would be inclined to seal the gaps with a wide piece of plastic tape, making sure it doesn't restrict aileron travel in any way. When test flying a new airplane, it is a good idea to reduce the potential for problems or nasty surprises. If you wish to experiment, do it later on when everything else is going well. Don't take chances! [Speaking of "chance", here is a Charles Lindbergh quote: "You can guard against the high percentage of chance but not against chance itself."] Graham Hansen (Pietenpol CF-AUN) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:46 PM PST US From: "Christian Bobka" "Flitzer" , "Pietenpol" , "Corvair" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Off topic but very worthwhile MISS CHAMPION TO ARRIVE AT EAA FRIDAY Miss Champion at the 1986 EAA Fly-In and Convention. September 8, 2005 - An exceptionally rare aircraft originally slated to appear at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2005 will arrive at EAA headquarters on Friday, September 9, then fly for one last time late next week after it's reassembled. Miss Champion, a Pitcairn PCA-2 autogiro built in 1931, is being transported from Trenton-Robbinsville Airport, New Jersey, to Oshkosh where it will be donated to the EAA AirVenture Museum collection. Owner Stephen Pitcairn, son of the designer Harold Pitcairn, originally planned to fly Miss Champion from New Jersey to Oshkosh for the 2005 convention, then donate the historic rotorcraft. But a family situation occurred three weeks before the convention and he had to cancel. Instead, he and his five-person crew will travel to Oshkosh on Tuesday, September 13, spend 2-3 days putting Miss Champion back together at EAA's Weeks Hangar, then make a short, ceremonial last flight to historic Pioneer Airport. (The PCA-2's flight characteristics were once described as "hopping off the ground like a giant grasshopper.") The PCA-2 (NC 11609) will join two other aircraft Pitcairn donated to EAA: A beautifully restored Pitcairn Mailwing and the world's only remaining example of a PA-39 autogiro. They'll reside in the structure also donated by Pitcairn-the Pitcairn Aviation Hangar. "We feel fortunate and grateful that Steve considers our facilities an appropriate final destination for this important aviation artifact," said EAA AirVenture Museum Director Adam Smith. Miss Champion, the first commercially licensed autogiro in the U.S., was purchased new in 1931 by the Champion Spark Plug Co. She led that year's Ford National Air Tour, and in September 1932 set an altitude record of 21,500 feet. The aircraft "retired" to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry, but was later sold to a private New Jersey museum. Steve Pitcairn acquired it in the early 1980s. "Because of my association with the EAA, with the Pitcairn Hangar and the Mailwing, as well as another autogiro, I decided to donate it to EAA," he said. "It seemed to be the logical place for (Miss Champion) to go." Harold Pitcairn built the first PCA-2 in 1930 through a licensing agreement with Spanish aviation pioneer Juan de la Cierva, inventor of the autogiro. PCA-2 stands for Pitcairn Cierva Autogiro, Model 2. A total of 20 were built. Like an airplane, an autogiro's propeller provides thrust to pull the plane through the air. Meanwhile, a rotor spins to provide lift similar to a helicopter. Unlike a helicopter, though, the rotor blades are not powered; they simply auto-rotate as the aircraft moves through the air. The PCA-2 is a big aircraft, with a rotor diameter of 45 feet, and a 420-hp Wright R-975-E2 engine. Maximum weight is 3,000 pounds. Pitcairn PCA-2 Autogiro Miss Champion a.. Wing Span: 30 feet b.. Rotor Diameter: 45 feet c.. Length: 23 feet, 1 inch d.. Height: 13 feet e.. Weight, Empty: 2,030 pounds f.. Weight, Gross: 3,000 pounds g.. Cruising Speed: 98 mph h.. Max Speed: 118 mph i.. Rate of Climb: 800 fpm j.. Service Ceiling: 15,000 feet k.. Power Plant: Wright R-975-E2 Whirlwind, 420 hp ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:15 PM PST US From: "Ted Brousseau" Subject: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Ted Brousseau" I went to a forum in Oshkosh and they highly recommended Gaffer's tape as a better solution than duct tape, even though it costs a little more. From its name I assumed it was used around boats... Ted > Time: 08:19:23 AM PST US > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator > From: harvey.rule@bell.ca > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca > > I guess your right Jim,I never thought of that.Let me talk to my other > friends in the theatre business first and if I can't get a roll from > them then I will try getting it from you.Thanks very much. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim > Markle > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Markle > > > As long as you have friends on the Piet list, isn't EVERYTHING in the > states available to you? :-) > > Why can't we get it for you and mail it directly to you? > > As usual, I'm probably missing something here, but it seems to me that > if we can get it, YOU can get it (from us)! > > JM > > > -----Original Message----- > From: harvey.rule@bell.ca > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: harvey.rule@bell.ca > > This tape is only sold and delivered in the US.Can't get any in Canada > at this time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar > Zuniga > Subject: Pietenpol-List: tape to use on ailerons and elevator > > --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Oscar Zuniga" > > > Harvey wrote- > > >I'd like to know what is the best tape to use in these places for > >gap cover? I will order the one you guys say is best. > > Well, I have not used this myself (yet), but one of the guys over on the > > KRNet suggested "gaffers tape" for use on the wing gap seals on KRs. > This > is tape that is used in movie sets to tape wiring down onto the floor, > so it > doesn't have adhesive down the middle part of the tape... the part that > would be over the gap between the wing and the control surface. It's > available in an assortment of colors. Here's one example: > http://www34.pair.com/harrison/thetapeworks.com/progaff.htm > > Oscar Zuniga > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron & Elevator Gaps For the ailerons, I used the plans type barn door hinges with steel hinge pins, and bridged the gap with fabric, before the paint process. For the empenage, I used Vi Kapler aluminum hinges, and bridged those gaps with fabric, before paint process. These methods are light weight, simple to build, add efficiency to the flight, and have been trouble free for 4 years. If I were to do it again, I would use the same methods. Chuck G. NX770CG